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Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk or Tretiak?

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Old
05-10-2005, 12:29 AM
  #1
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Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk or Tretiak?

Who do you think was the best and why? I would have to say in their primes Hasek was the best, career wise Sawchuk and Roy were the best. Tretiak was the best at internation tournaments and stuff because well he never had a chance to play in the NHL. (Unfortunately) Your thoughts.

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05-10-2005, 12:32 AM
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Hasek prime and in terms of career in my opinion. Everyone ignores his great international career before the NHL. Followed by Sawchuk, then Roy and then bringing up the rear Tretiak.

1. Hasek
2. Sawchuk
3. Roy

4. Tretiak

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05-10-2005, 12:35 AM
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Wow you really seem to underrate Tretiak... what gives?

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05-10-2005, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Tretiak was the best at internation tournaments and stuff because well he never had a chance to play in the NHL. (Unfortunately) Your thoughts.
I think that Tretiak is waaaaaaayyyy overrated. For instance, he was chosen only twice as the best goalie in the World Championships during the 70s (the Czech Jiri Holecek was chosen 5 times). And Czechoslovakia used to beat Soviet Union quite a few times with scores like 8-3 and 7-2 (with Tretiak in goal). Well, maybe his team played poorly in those games, so it was probably not entirely his fault.

On the other hand, Tretiak surely had some great games and tournaments like the Habs vs. Red Army New Year´s game and Canada Cup ´81. But I still think that he is overrated...


Last edited by Marcus-74: 05-10-2005 at 03:48 AM.
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05-10-2005, 04:16 AM
  #5
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Sawchuk was simply the best I ever saw. Just thinking about what he could have done with today's massive equipment that's feather light compared to the bricks he had to wear makes me tear up.

Second easily goes to Hasek in this group.

Third is tough. We never saw that much of Tretiak relatively, and no NHL, but Roy had his numbers inflated from being on so many excellent teams he was on for pretty much his entire career. When he actually ended up on a crappy team, he whined until he got traded to a good one.

Based on what they actually did, it's Roy #3, and Tretiak #4, but I suspect Tretiak was actually more talented.

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05-10-2005, 07:35 AM
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Talk about a question that'll get split on generational lines. I don't know how you'd compare goalies to actually settle a #1 of all time debate. The factors like number of teams, having backups, style of play, the team in front of him,wow.

My Dad always said that Sawchuck was the best he's ever seen. He also says #66 was the best player he's seen, so he's not stuck on his era. I think to pick a goalie, you tend to lean towards someone who didn't play on your team, someone, who when they came into your building, you were afraid would win on his own. In that respect, I'd go with Hasek. Some games, to beat him, you just had to be lucky. Would I rate him as #1 of all time ? Probably not. I guess I'd pick Roy if I had to evaluate everything. I think Tretiak suffers because we simply don't know him game in game out thru his time. We saw the magnified games, tournaments etc.
We saw Roy and Hasek perform mid season games in March like it was life or death. Maybe Tretiak was that great but I'm not willing to say so from what I've seen. Sawchuck and Bower stole the 1967 Cup and Sawchuck in particular was unbeatable. I rememer from the early 60's on though and Sawchuck's best days were in the 50's. Glenn Hall owned that decade imo. Reading the previous posts, it seems I agree with Kovy, but was more long winded about it.

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05-10-2005, 08:03 AM
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Tretiak was good but from the game tapes I've seen of him it's pretty hard to evaluate him because of the really cheap equipment that made him let in some bad goals that would be completely unacceptable today

I don't know about Sawchuk because that was like a million years ago, but I've followed both Roy and Hasek for years and I'm absolutely positive that Hasek was the better of the two. Roy was one of the best clutch performers ever when he decided to step up, but when Hasek was on his game he could shut down the best shooters in the NHL as if they were teenagers. From roughly about 1994 to 2000 I don't think any goaltender in the NHL was even close to Hasek's level.

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05-10-2005, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus-74
I think that Tretiak is waaaaaaayyyy overrated. For instance, he was chosen only twice as the best goalie in the World Championships during the 70s (the Czech Jiri Holecek was chosen 5 times). And Czechoslovakia used to beat Soviet Union quite a few times with scores like 8-3 and 7-2 (with Tretiak in goal). Well, maybe his team played poorly in those games, so it was probably not entirely his fault.

On the other hand, Tretiak surely had some great games and tournaments like the Habs vs. Red Army New Year´s game and Canada Cup ´81. But I still think that he is overrated...
I agree 100% and I've heard others point out he's played a lot of shaky games, more than even Patrick Roy.

Bernie Parent is to Dominik Hasek
what Mario is to Gretzky:
injuries cut a great career down a bit.

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05-10-2005, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Wow you really seem to underrate Tretiak... what gives?
He just wasn't on the same level as the other goaltenders, there is an elite level, then there is a great level. tretiak falls into the great level. It really isn't an insult towards him, but playing behind some great teams allowed him the ability to get away with some of the small flaws in his game. I think if you look at everyones list you will find the same trend, with Tretiak at the bottom a great deal behind the other goaltenders.

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05-10-2005, 09:44 AM
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I guess I'll be in the minority on this one too.

1. Sawchuk. And by a fair margin. Quicker and tougher than any of the other candidates. Didn't have back-ups so he could take a night off either. Tougher era, no mask.

2. Roy. Only because I seem to be one of the few who remember he was as good in the laughable equipment of the 80s as he was with the pillows of the 90s. Hasek only came to his prime after the big equipment arrived. Of the four Roy also gets points for being the best puckhandler of the group.

3. Hasek. Not knocking the guy at all. He kept the puck out by any means necessary. And don't bother with the arguments that he was a back-up he was stuck in the Czechoslovakia.... If he was as good early in his career as he was late he would have been shutting down teams in international competition before his NHL days. He wasn't. And if he was better than Belfour he would have been played. Keenan was the coach for crying out loud. Captain Hook.

4. Tretiak. I also think he's a touch overrated. He could make incredible saves, then let in really soft goals. Consistently. I think a lot of Tretiak's success was due to the system the Russian played. He was very good, but clearly below the other 3 IMO.

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05-10-2005, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
I guess I'll be in the minority on this one too.

1. Sawchuk. And by a fair margin. Quicker and tougher than any of the other candidates. Didn't have back-ups so he could take a night off either. Tougher era, no mask.

2. Roy. Only because I seem to be one of the few who remember he was as good in the laughable equipment of the 80s as he was with the pillows of the 90s. Hasek only came to his prime after the big equipment arrived. Of the four Roy also gets points for being the best puckhandler of the group.

3. Hasek. Not knocking the guy at all. He kept the puck out by any means necessary. And don't bother with the arguments that he was a back-up he was stuck in the Czechoslovakia.... If he was as good early in his career as he was late he would have been shutting down teams in international competition before his NHL days. He wasn't. And if he was better than Belfour he would have been played. Keenan was the coach for crying out loud. Captain Hook.

4. Tretiak. I also think he's a touch overrated. He could make incredible saves, then let in really soft goals. Consistently. I think a lot of Tretiak's success was due to the system the Russian played. He was very good, but clearly below the other 3 IMO.
Hasek was named the best goalie in Czeck Republic from 1985 to 1990. To think he wasnt good early in his career is stupid. Hasek was winning Vezina trophies at the age of 35 years old. Can you imagine if he had started at 20 like Roy and been on some good teams how many more cups and trophies he would've won?

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05-10-2005, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Hasek was named the best goalie in Czeck Republic from 1985 to 1990. To think he wasnt good early in his career is stupid. Hasek was winning Vezina trophies at the age of 35 years old. Can you imagine if he had started at 20 like Roy and been on some good teams how many more cups and trophies he would've won?
Being the best in Czechoslovakia as a 20 year old and being one of the best in the NHL as a a 20 year old are two different things. Yes he played well in the Czech leagues. But whenever it was an international event like the Olympics or World Championships he was good, not great. And never did I say he wasn't good early in his career. But he clearly benefitted as much from big equipment as Roy did. To say otherwise is a big double standard IMO.

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05-10-2005, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus-74
I think that Tretiak is waaaaaaayyyy overrated. For instance, he was chosen only twice as the best goalie in the World Championships during the 70s (the Czech Jiri Holecek was chosen 5 times). And Czechoslovakia used to beat Soviet Union quite a few times with scores like 8-3 and 7-2 (with Tretiak in goal). Well, maybe his team played poorly in those games, so it was probably not entirely his fault.

On the other hand, Tretiak surely had some great games and tournaments like the Habs vs. Red Army New Year´s game and Canada Cup ´81. But I still think that he is overrated...
I`m so glad somebody else mentioned that. His reputation is overblown because he was the top Russian goalie back when the Canadian media was writing all that B.S. about how "the Russians are so superior" His international resume is less impressive than Holecek`s or Hasek`s.

To change the topic, how can you have a thread about the best goalies ever with nobody mentioning Jacques Plante?


Last edited by reckoning: 05-10-2005 at 12:18 PM.
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Old
05-10-2005, 12:16 PM
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Ide take Plante ,Hall and Sawchuck for the reasons the other fellow gave ..the equipment they used was so crappy its a wonder they would stop anything ..and special props to Mr.Goalie Glen Hall who had to face Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita the banana blade brothers in practice everyday with NO MASK!!!!!
Todays goalies are in better shape as are all NHL players but that equipment is so HUGE its a fricking joke ..ide have a GAA of under 3 in todays NHL.

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05-10-2005, 12:30 PM
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Wasn't able to witness Sawchuck firsthand like I was Roy and Hasek, but I've seen enough to know that it is between him and Hasek. I agree with the previous post that Tretiak was overrated because he played for the "invincible Russians"... overhyped because of it. He was great no doubt, but not top 5 great.

As far as what Sawchuck could do with today's equipment, who knows... it certainly seems enticing. On the other hand, you can't just consider that without considering all the other things that have changed in the NHL and in doing so it is hard to figure just how much better he'd have done.

Final word... I'll go with Sawchuck just to steer clear of bias, though those 50's Detroit teams are among my favorites (Red Kelly and Ted Lindsay )

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05-10-2005, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Leaf
Todays goalies are in better shape [...]
They're also (on average) far better athletes, so being in better shape would only make up for some of the difference physically.

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05-10-2005, 12:45 PM
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I hate comparing eras because the way i look at it they were the best in the world then , the same as todays are the best in the world now .However the other side of the coin is if those old time players applied themselves and took all the supplemants/steroids , used all the wonderfull workout technology that todays players benefit from then.......well you get the idea.

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05-10-2005, 01:00 PM
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Tretyak and Hasek for me, any day. Roy comes third.

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05-10-2005, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Leaf
I hate comparing eras because the way i look at it they were the best in the world then , the same as todays are the best in the world now .However the other side of the coin is if those old time players applied themselves and took all the supplemants/steroids , used all the wonderfull workout technology that todays players benefit from then.......well you get the idea.
Yes, but you have to consider there have to be some detriments as well. A forward, for example, has to contend with more high-end and average talent, better defensive schemes, and better (however you want to put it) goaltenders.

If we're assuming that this player would be in the same shape as players of this generation and taught the same things--which would mean he'd have to be born and bred at this time--who knows how that comes out. Heck, the player in question might have been a basketball player instead.

I imagine you don't mean to be this analytic with it, but there are two ways of looking at it:

Grabbing the guy in a time machine and throwing the anachronism out on the ice or theorizing as if he were born today. If he's the same player just in today's time, is he going to be in good enough shape... will he fit in with how everything is played... does he know how to shoot a slapshot? If the latter, then the issues I mentioned earlier would apply.

I just resign myself to the fact that it is near impossible comparing vastly separated generations of the game. Suffice to say that the greats would be great in any era or on any pond, and from there we just don't know (though I did export Sawchuk, Lindsay, Able, Howe, and Kelly on ESPN NHL 2k5 from the classic teams and start a franchise with them )

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05-10-2005, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malefic74
I guess I'll be in the minority on this one too.

2. Roy. Only because I seem to be one of the few who remember he was as good in the laughable equipment of the 80s as he was with the pillows of the 90s. Hasek only came to his prime after the big equipment arrived. Of the four Roy also gets points for being the best puckhandler of the group.

3. Hasek. Not knocking the guy at all. He kept the puck out by any means necessary. And don't bother with the arguments that he was a back-up he was stuck in the Czechoslovakia.... If he was as good early in his career as he was late he would have been shutting down teams in international competition before his NHL days. He wasn't. And if he was better than Belfour he would have been played. Keenan was the coach for crying out loud. Captain Hook.
1. Hasek's gear was never as big as the other goalies in the league during his prime. In fact, it was more like Broduer's. He used bigger gear in his last year though.

2. Belfour was the top goalie in the NHL during those days, up and coming, young and a gamebreaker. Hasek didn't get much playing time, but when he did, he played behind a strong defense that made any goaltender look good. You fail to mention that he pushed Grant Fuhr out of Buffalo, another top goalie.

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05-10-2005, 01:19 PM
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Also, to be fair, I'm sure there were guys taking steroids in the 70's and 80's.

As far as suppliments and the like, that's simply a benefit of an improving society. We can't hold increased knowledge against the geniuses of tomorrow for the posterity of the Albert Einsteins.

Someday we'll see safer versions of steroids not only accepted in professional sports, but commonly used by all people. We don't look down upon them as a society because of what they're supposed to do, we do because they're in the same class as drugs being that they're just as unstable and dangerous. And further, in the world of sports taking steroids is seen as cheating not because it helps players get stronger but because it is against the rules (because it isn't safe). Therefore those breaking the rules gain an unfair advantage over those who follow them.

I'm all for the proposed "asterisk" if/when Bonds breaks the HR record if he is proven to have taken steroids. However, if they were allowed in the league (because they were safe), I wouldn't. We wouldn't put an asterisk next to his records because he has personal dieticians, trainers, doctors, and yoga instructors, would we?

I know I'm way off your point here but I've been wanting to get that out for a while.

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05-10-2005, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Who do you think was the best and why? I would have to say in their primes Hasek was the best, career wise Sawchuk and Roy were the best. Tretiak was the best at internation tournaments and stuff because well he never had a chance to play in the NHL. (Unfortunately) Your thoughts.
Roy had the best career, Hasek was the best goalie I've ever seen ... and Tretiak is the most overrated player in hockey history.

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05-10-2005, 01:53 PM
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To Malefic 74.

If Hasek sucked the first 2 years he was in the league then I wonder why he still had a better GAA and save percentage then Belfour! Also Roy played in the big pad era mot of his career too (and wore a lot bigger then Hasek) yet Hasek always blew him away in terms of GAA, Save percentage, Shutouts, Vezina trophies, Lester B Pearson Trophies and Hart trophies.

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05-10-2005, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
To Malefic 74.

If Hasek sucked the first 2 years he was in the league then I wonder why he still had a better GAA and save percentage then Belfour! Also Roy played in the big pad era mot of his career too (and wore a lot bigger then Hasek) yet Hasek always blew him away in terms of GAA, Save percentage, Shutouts, Vezina trophies, Lester B Pearson Trophies and Hart trophies.
That's because he was better.

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05-10-2005, 02:59 PM
  #25
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1.Sawchuk
2.Roy
3.Hasek
4.Tretiak

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