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Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk or Tretiak?

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05-11-2005, 11:59 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
Absolutely disagree. First, Tretiak was nothing short of phenomenal during exhibition games on NHL ice. I think (can't know for sure, since it was only a handful of games) that those contests were a pretty good incicator for his potential in the NHL.
Second, I've always taken statements like "let's see how goalie X adapts to NHL ice" with a grain of salt. In my mind stopping pucks is stopping pucks is stopping pucks, no matter how big the rink dimensions are (and I could very well be wrong, so feel free to correct me). Look at how well North American goalies adapt during the Olympics. European flops over here tend to be forwards and defensemen that can't keep up with the size and strength of NHL forwards. There is the occassional goalie, sure, but they don't pop up nearly as often as skaters do.
As for not having years of excellence, look and Tretiak and Holocek's résumés.Pretty damn exceptional if you ask me.
Lastly, it isn't a "handful" of tourneys and international exhibitions. These guys played full seasons. I mean, their jobs as "soldiers" were to play hockey.

Now, if you want to make an argument about how NHLers loafed during the offseason in this era and Eastern block players were forced to train year round, I'm all ears.
Tretiak did not have an NHL career, so I am hesitant to put him with the greatest of NHL greats. I'm just hesitant to compare a "could have been" to actual NHL Hall of Famers who won multiple Vezinas, Stanley Cups, Jennings Trophies and even Hart Trophies.

A handful of brilliant games in tournaments spread out over a decade doesn't make a career. It's not even an international ice to North American ice issue. It's the fact that he didn't have an NHL career, so he didn't have the chance to prove himself. A guy like Mikael Tellqvist was absolutely dominant in Sweden before he came over to NA. Had he stayed in Sweden and dominated for a decade, should he be considered one of the greats of all time?

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05-11-2005, 12:24 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
Disagree again. The 99 Sabres team, for my money was slightly better than the 93 Habs team. The difference? The Habs had Roy. Hasek was amazing, but not good enough.
i'm not too sure about that. both were underdogs, but at least Montreal had some firepower on the team that year. I'd say the Montreal team was a fair bit better

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05-11-2005, 01:18 PM
  #53
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The Hockey News NHL Top 100 of 1998 had the goalies ranked as follows:

Terry Sawchuk
Jacques Plante
Glenn Hall
Ken Dryden
Bill Durnan
Patrick Roy
Turk Broda
Bernie Parent
Frank Brimsek
Grant Fuhr
Georges Vezina
Chuck Gardiner
Clint Benedict
Tony Esposito
Billy Smith
Lorne Chabot
Johny Bower
Dominic Hasek

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05-11-2005, 01:51 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
The Hockey News NHL Top 100 of 1998 had the goalies ranked as follows:

Terry Sawchuk
Jacques Plante
Glenn Hall
Ken Dryden
Bill Durnan
Patrick Roy
Turk Broda
Bernie Parent
Frank Brimsek
Grant Fuhr
Georges Vezina
Chuck Gardiner
Clint Benedict
Tony Esposito
Billy Smith
Lorne Chabot
Johny Bower
Dominic Hasek
That list came out right around the end of '97 and beginning of '98 That would put it before Dom's second Hart and Pearson and before he attained 3 more Vezinas. Not to mention is run in '99 and Cup in '02.

Pretty much why Yzerman was so far down on the list as well.

I'd venture that by now Brodeur would leap up into the list as well.

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05-11-2005, 02:33 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by arrbez
i'm not too sure about that. both were underdogs, but at least Montreal had some firepower on the team that year. I'd say the Montreal team was a fair bit better
Montreal's team could actually put the puck into the frickin net unlike that Sabres team.

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05-11-2005, 02:48 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Montreal's team could actually put the puck into the frickin net unlike that Sabres team.

Absolutely wrong. The Sabres scored 69 goals in the playoffs that year in 21 games (AFTER the beginning of the dead puck era) and the Canadiens scored 70 in 20 BEFORE the widespread use of the trap. The 99 Sabres were just as good offensively as the 93 Canadiens, if not better, and the stats prove it.

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05-11-2005, 02:50 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
i'm not too sure about that. both were underdogs, but at least Montreal had some firepower on the team that year. I'd say the Montreal team was a fair bit better

See my reply to Kovalev. The Habs may have had more star power, but the '99 Sabres were just as effective at putting the puck past the goalie.

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05-11-2005, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Tretiak did not have an NHL career, so I am hesitant to put him with the greatest of NHL greats. I'm just hesitant to compare a "could have been" to actual NHL Hall of Famers who won multiple Vezinas, Stanley Cups, Jennings Trophies and even Hart Trophies.

A handful of brilliant games in tournaments spread out over a decade doesn't make a career. It's not even an international ice to North American ice issue. It's the fact that he didn't have an NHL career, so he didn't have the chance to prove himself. A guy like Mikael Tellqvist was absolutely dominant in Sweden before he came over to NA. Had he stayed in Sweden and dominated for a decade, should he be considered one of the greats of all time?

Typical North American arrogance (and I'm North American too). "If it didn't happen here, it can't count for diddly."



The Tellqvist debate is irrelevant in my mind because he didn't start playing until the best players in Europe moved to NA to compete in the NHL. Your argument is like a Russian saying that Plante's career didn't matter because he didn't get a chance to compete in the Soviet leagues during the Summit Series.

Does no one remember the Soviet squad putting the fear of God into Canada?

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05-11-2005, 03:18 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
Typical North American arrogance (and I'm North American too). "If it didn't happen here, it can't count for diddly."



The Tellqvist debate is irrelevant in my mind because he didn't start playing until the best players in Europe moved to NA to compete in the NHL. Your argument is like a Russian saying that Plante's career didn't matter because he didn't get a chance to compete in the Soviet leagues during the Summit Series.

Does no one remember the Soviet squad putting the fear of God into Canada?
Good post. Furthermore, back in the 60ies, 70ies and 80ies most of the European top talent available was playing in Europe, with a few exceptions. Therefore, the level of some of those leagues can't have been too shabby. Imagine 80-90 % of the Europeans now playing in NHL playing in Europe instead (lockout, anybody? ). You would probably agree that the level of NHL would drop somewhat and the level of the European leagues rise somewhat.

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05-11-2005, 03:24 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boucicaut
Good post. Furthermore, back in the 60ies, 70ies and 80ies most of the European top talent available was playing in Europe, with a few exceptions. Therefore, the level of some of those leagues can't have been too shabby. Imagine 80-90 % of the Europeans now playing in NHL playing in Europe instead (lockout, anybody? ). You would probably agree that the level of NHL would drop somewhat and the level of the European leagues rise somewhat.

THANK YOU. Some of the people on here would do well to remember that it's the HOCKEY Hall of Fame, not the NA Hockey Hall of Fame.

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05-11-2005, 03:49 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
Typical North American arrogance (and I'm North American too). "If it didn't happen here, it can't count for diddly."



The Tellqvist debate is irrelevant in my mind because he didn't start playing until the best players in Europe moved to NA to compete in the NHL. Your argument is like a Russian saying that Plante's career didn't matter because he didn't get a chance to compete in the Soviet leagues during the Summit Series.

Does no one remember the Soviet squad putting the fear of God into Canada?
This is not North American arrogance. This is comparing NHL greats who have a combined 10 Stanley Cups, 13 Vezina Trophies, 2 Hart Trophies and 3 Calder Trophies to a guy who didn't play a single game in the NHL. I just don't think that a handful of tournament games is enough to equalize Tretiak with those accomplishments. Also, he did play the majority of his career on what was basically the Soviet All-Star Team.

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05-11-2005, 03:56 PM
  #62
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Would you put guys like Krutov, Makarov, Larionov, Kamensky and Fetisov up there with guys like Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe and Orr? Sure they didn't have spectacular NHL careers, but they did a lot back home when they were in their prime. I personally wouldn't. The same principle applies to Tretiak.

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05-11-2005, 04:02 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
That list came out right around the end of '97 and beginning of '98 That would put it before Dom's second Hart and Pearson and before he attained 3 more Vezinas. Not to mention is run in '99 and Cup in '02.

Pretty much why Yzerman was so far down on the list as well.

I'd venture that by now Brodeur would leap up into the list as well.
My personal list would be:

Terry Sawchuk
Dominic Hasek
Jacques Plante
Glenn Hall
Ken Dryden/Martin Brodeur
Patrick Roy

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05-11-2005, 04:07 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Would you put guys like Krutov, Makarov, Larionov, Kamensky and Fetisov up there with guys like Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe and Orr? Sure they didn't have spectacular NHL careers, but they did a lot back home when they were in their prime. I personally wouldn't. The same principle applies to Tretiak.
I would. Kharlamov, Petrov and a few others belong to the same group.

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05-11-2005, 04:12 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Would you put guys like Krutov, Makarov, Larionov, Kamensky and Fetisov up there with guys like Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe and Orr? Sure they didn't have spectacular NHL careers, but they did a lot back home when they were in their prime. I personally wouldn't. The same principle applies to Tretiak.
No, I wouldn't put them up there with Gretz and Mario. I would, however, include Kharlamov in that list. The Canadians only solution to him was to break him ankle. Have you ever seen Clarke's slash? It was flat out premeditated and nasty (not to mention the only hope the Canadians had to stop him). Guys like that are rare talents and they don't come along that often. It's taken us 11 years since Lemieux was drafted to find even one player who MIGHT have that kind of potential.
As for the Russians you mentioned, they may not be up there with your list four, but I would pot them along the lines of guys like Yzerman, Hull, Borque and Bossy.
You can argue all you want about how they didn't perform as well as those guys when they came over, but the simple fact is that they were adjusting to a new culture and a new style of game (or in Krutov's case partying as much as possible to make up for lost tome ). Look at how Peter Stasny adjusted: more points than anyone not named Gretzky in the 80's.

I stand by my original statement. It is North American arrogance. "The Euros can't possibly be as good." Tell me... Where would the best player in the world be playing now if not for the influx of European talent? What about your team's captain and best player?

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05-11-2005, 04:17 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
This is not North American arrogance. This is comparing NHL greats who have a combined 10 Stanley Cups, 13 Vezina Trophies, 2 Hart Trophies and 3 Calder Trophies to a guy who didn't play a single game in the NHL. I just don't think that a handful of tournament games is enough to equalize Tretiak with those accomplishments. Also, he did play the majority of his career on what was basically the Soviet All-Star Team.
Yes, and there were no awards given out in European hockey at the time...
If you'll go back and look at the Soviet league's standings, they didn't exactly dominate every game. They had plenty of competition. And were the Habs of the 70's really that much different? Should we take away the accomplishments of guys like Bobby Clarke and others who didn't play on those great Habs teams? You're like an ostrich with it's head in the sand. Great hockey was being played outside of North America for years before the European influx into the NHL. Why do you think these guys came in and succeeded?

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05-11-2005, 04:28 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
No, I wouldn't put them up there with Gretz and Mario. I would, however, include Kharlamov in that list. The Canadians only solution to him was to break him ankle. Have you ever seen Clarke's slash? It was flat out premeditated and nasty (not to mention the only hope the Canadians had to stop him). Guys like that are rare talents and they don't come along that often. It's taken us 11 years since Lemieux was drafted to find even one player who MIGHT have that kind of potential.
As for the Russians you mentioned, they may not be up there with your list four, but I would pot them along the lines of guys like Yzerman, Hull, Borque and Bossy.
You can argue all you want about how they didn't perform as well as those guys when they came over, but the simple fact is that they were adjusting to a new culture and a new style of game (or in Krutov's case partying as much as possible to make up for lost tome ). Look at how Peter Stasny adjusted: more points than anyone not named Gretzky in the 80's.

I stand by my original statement. It is North American arrogance. "The Euros can't possibly be as good." Tell me... Where would the best player in the world be playing now if not for the influx of European talent? What about your team's captain and best player?
Agreed. What you say sounds more realistic in the grande scheme of things. My earlier post was incorrect.

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05-11-2005, 04:40 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
I stand by my original statement. It is North American arrogance. "The Euros can't possibly be as good." Tell me... Where would the best player in the world be playing now if not for the influx of European talent? What about your team's captain and best player?
No, it's not North American arrogance. It's about using the NHL as the ultimate benchmark for a player's accomplishment because that is where the best talent in the world is concentrated today. It's about refusing to over value the accomplishments of non NHLers. Tretiak was a great Soviet goalie who played on a Soviet All-Star team for all of his career. We just don't know what kind of career he would have had if he had played the 76 game schedule against guys like Esposito, Orr, Lafleur, etc every day on a regular NHL team. He could have been better than Roy, Sawchuk and Hasek, or he could have been mediocre. There's no way of knowing. All I'm saying is that using the Summit Series or Canada Cup to judge the greatness of a player as useful as using the World Juniors or the World Cup. This standard applies to all hockey players, whether they're from the Czech Republic or Brantford Ontario.Jamie Storr dominated international junior hockey in the mid 90s against the best juniors from all over the world. Was he an NHL great? Mats Sundin, who is without peer on the international stage, is not even one of the top 5 players in the NHL.

Roy and Hasek werre dominant goalies in a league that doubtlessly featured the best players in the world. They put up their numbers night after night for over for years. Tretiak had great exhibition tournaments against all star teams spread out over the years. When he wasn't playing the best in the NHL, he was playing on the same team as the best Soviet players of his era. I'm not saying he couldn't have been great in the NHL. It's just that he didn't accomplish the things that Roy and Hasek and Sawchuk did.

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05-11-2005, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
No, it's not North American arrogance. It's about using the NHL as the ultimate benchmark for a player's accomplishment because that is where the best talent in the world is concentrated today. It's about refusing to over value the accomplishments of non NHLers. Tretiak was a great Soviet goalie who played on a Soviet All-Star team for all of his career. We just don't know what kind of career he would have had if he had played the 76 game schedule against guys like Esposito, Orr, Lafleur, etc every day on a regular NHL team. He could have been better than Roy, Sawchuk and Hasek, or he could have been mediocre. There's no way of knowing. All I'm saying is that using the Summit Series or Canada Cup to judge the greatness of a player as useful as using the World Juniors or the World Cup. This standard applies to all hockey players, whether they're from the Czech Republic or Brantford Ontario.Jamie Storr dominated international junior hockey in the mid 90s against the best juniors from all over the world. Was he an NHL great? Mats Sundin, who is without peer on the international stage, is not even one of the top 5 players in the NHL.

Roy and Hasek werre dominant goalies in a league that doubtlessly featured the best players in the world. They put up their numbers night after night for over for years. Tretiak had great exhibition tournaments against all star teams spread out over the years. When he wasn't playing the best in the NHL, he was playing on the same team as the best Soviet players of his era. I'm not saying he couldn't have been great in the NHL. It's just that he didn't accomplish the things that Roy and Hasek and Sawchuk did.
Also, it must be considered the level of competition Tretiak and other Red Army players had in the Soviet league.

The Red Army took any good player from the other teams in the league and built themselves a super team. If a guy played for Dynamo and he was becoming a star, next year he played for Red Army. I think Red Army won 11 championships in a row or even more because the league was a farce. Red Army took all the good players so, the level of competition faced by Tretiak was diminished.

I remember Tretiak musing about how great it would be to have Russia's best team play the NHL's best team every year for the world title. Because Montreal was so good at the time, it seemed that he thought the NHL was like the Russian league where the best players were funnelled to the Habs every year and they were always the best team. He wanted a Red Army vs. Montreal Canadiens series every year.

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05-11-2005, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
No, it's not North American arrogance. It's about using the NHL as the ultimate benchmark for a player's accomplishment because that is where the best talent in the world is concentrated today. It's about refusing to over value the accomplishments of non NHLers. Tretiak was a great Soviet goalie who played on a Soviet All-Star team for all of his career. We just don't know what kind of career he would have had if he had played the 76 game schedule against guys like Esposito, Orr, Lafleur, etc every day on a regular NHL team. He could have been better than Roy, Sawchuk and Hasek, or he could have been mediocre. There's no way of knowing. All I'm saying is that using the Summit Series or Canada Cup to judge the greatness of a player as useful as using the World Juniors or the World Cup. This standard applies to all hockey players, whether they're from the Czech Republic or Brantford Ontario.Jamie Storr dominated international junior hockey in the mid 90s against the best juniors from all over the world. Was he an NHL great? Mats Sundin, who is without peer on the international stage, is not even one of the top 5 players in the NHL.

Roy and Hasek werre dominant goalies in a league that doubtlessly featured the best players in the world. They put up their numbers night after night for over for years. Tretiak had great exhibition tournaments against all star teams spread out over the years. When he wasn't playing the best in the NHL, he was playing on the same team as the best Soviet players of his era. I'm not saying he couldn't have been great in the NHL. It's just that he didn't accomplish the things that Roy and Hasek and Sawchuk did.

NHL today has a concentration of the best talent for that type of play and rink. Not everybody fits that type. There are players who just are not suitable for the type of hockey played in the NHL, despite having lots of talent and skill. Goes both ways too: not all NHL pros were successfull in Europe this season. There are different types of hockey and saying that one is somehow superior to others is fine, as long we are discussing matters of taste. However, when we start benchmarking things, that approach leads to a bias.

Also, back in the 60ies, 70ies and 80ies, the NHL didn't even have all the available best talent suitable for the league, as very few Euros actually came over. Undoubtedly many players could have had good NHL careers if given a chance.

By the way, Mats Sundin hardly is 'without peer' on the international stage. He is merely one of the dozens of skilled players who have been succesfull there.

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05-11-2005, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Also, it must be considered the level of competition Tretiak and other Red Army players had in the Soviet league.

The Red Army took any good player from the other teams in the league and built themselves a super team. If a guy played for Dynamo and he was becoming a star, next year he played for Red Army. I think Red Army won 11 championships in a row or even more because the league was a farce. Red Army took all the good players so, the level of competition faced by Tretiak was diminished.

I remember Tretiak musing about how great it would be to have Russia's best team play the NHL's best team every year for the world title. Because Montreal was so good at the time, it seemed that he thought the NHL was like the Russian league where the best players were funnelled to the Habs every year and they were always the best team. He wanted a Red Army vs. Montreal Canadiens series every year.
Really? Very interesting.

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05-11-2005, 05:25 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
No, it's not North American arrogance. It's about using the NHL as the ultimate benchmark for a player's accomplishment because that is where the best talent in the world is concentrated today.
Key word in your post: "today." The NHL of the 70's and 80's is a far cry from what it is today. Today you really can make the argument that we have ALL the premier talent in the world. Not so in the 70's and 80's. And again, the best forward, defenseman, and goalie of the last few years would have never set foot on NHL if not for the influx of European talent.

Quote:
It's about refusing to over value the accomplishments of non NHLers. Tretiak was a great Soviet goalie who played on a Soviet All-Star team for all of his career.
And at the same time you're refusing to acknowledge that the Europeans played in a highly competitive league as well.
Perhaps not as good as the NHL, but certainly close, maybe better after the split with the WHA. I'd hardly say I'm overvaluing what they did; just that they deserve a lot more recognition than they're getting.
As a side point, you're insisting on the fact that no other league and it's players could even come close to stacking up to the NHL. That's what I define as North American arrogance. Do you really think Tretiak, Kharlamov or Petrov couldn't have starred in the NHL. If so, you're fooling yourself.
Here's an example: Vaclav Nedomansky. One of the first Czech players to defect. Played for an inept Red Wings team and constantly wowed spectators with his moves and passing. The main problem was his inept teammates where unable to give him space or finish the oppurtunities he created. And yet he still managed to star in the NHL.

Quote:
We just don't know what kind of career he would have had if he had played the 76 game schedule against guys like Esposito, Orr, Lafleur, etc every day on a regular NHL team. He could have been better than Roy, Sawchuk and Hasek, or he could have been mediocre. There's no way of knowing.
You are right about one thing: Tretiak's season lasted 44 games. That's because the bulk of his schedule was spent during international play where he flat out dominated against the best the world had to offer. I'd wager his average season consisted of nearly 76 games, if not more. And he faced plenty of international stars no one knows about because they never made the jump across the pond (Tumba Johansson, Vaclav Nedomansky, your own Borje Salming, Pelle Lindburgh, and others(I'm sure there's many more I don't know about, because, like you, my knowledge is somewhat limited to the NHL) who could likely rival any of those guys in a skill competition.

You are right that I don't know how he'd fair against Espo or Hull regularly (looked good to me in the Summit Series games in Canada though), but at the same time you don't know how Hasek, Roy or Plante would hold up against European stars.

Quote:
All I'm saying is that using the Summit Series or Canada Cup to judge the greatness of a player as useful as using the World Juniors or the World Cup. This standard applies to all hockey players, whether they're from the Czech Republic or Brantford Ontario.
Funny. I thought scouts used the WJCs as one the main criteria to judge potential prospects. When you put together teams composed of a country's premier talent, is there a better place to seperate the wheat from the chaff. The real superstars tend to rise to the occassion and at the very least, they're talent is clearly evident.

Quote:
Jamie Storr dominated international junior hockey in the mid 90s against the best juniors from all over the world. Was he an NHL great? Mats Sundin, who is without peer on the international stage, is not even one of the top 5 players in the NHL.
Actually, I think there's a pretty good argument that Sundin is in the top 5, or at the very least used to be. As for Junior hockey and Jamie Storr, you're comparing apples and oranges. Juniors are the best players from a set age group. The WC's and World Cup include a country's best available players, regardless of age. Vladislav Tretiak consistantly dominating at the Canada Cup of Summit Series (first four games, anyway) is a lot more indicative of talent than Jamie Storr doing well in one tournament.

Quote:
Roy and Hasek werre dominant goalies in a league that doubtlessly featured the best players in the world. They put up their numbers night after night for over for years. Tretiak had great exhibition tournaments against all star teams spread out over the years.
Actually, wen Roy broke into the league, many of the world's best players were unable to leave Europe. There weren't even very many Finns or Swedes compared to today. I'd hardly say it was "doubtlessly" the best talent in the world. You telling Mikhailov or Makarov wouldn't have made the league back then?

As for Hasek, that proves my point. The goalie who reached the highest peaks the position has ever seen was European born, trained and had a European coach. What if he'd never come to America? The rest of the world would be dropping a load in their pants at the prospect of having to face in a medal round. Period.

Quote:
When he wasn't playing the best in the NHL, he was playing on the same team as the best Soviet players of his era. I'm not saying he couldn't have been great in the NHL. It's just that he didn't accomplish the things that Roy and Hasek and Sawchuk did.
By the same token, Roy, Hasek and Sawchuk never accomplished what Tretiak did. Of that bunch, Hasek is the only one with a gold medal. Tretiak had how many? How many awards did he win in European hockey. These tournaments may be "just a bunch of exhibitions" to you, but they were the reason guys like Holocek and Tretiak played.

The basic gist of your argument is that because these players didn't perform the way they did in the NHL they can't be as great as those who did. This indicates a fundamental view of the European leagues as vastly inferior, which, in my mind at least, is disproven by things like the Canada Cup or Summit Series (which was a helluva lot more than some "meaningless exhibition series." Look it up or read Phil Esposito's comments about it if you still don't believe me. "I would have killed them to win" comes to mind), the way Euro talent dominates the NHL today, and the fact that 2 of 3 post-NHL player Olympic gold medals have gone to European teams.

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05-11-2005, 05:30 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by norrisnick
Really? Very interesting.
You are missing my point somewhat. I was just saying that all the good players were funnelled to the Red Army. The scoring leader would still be the best scorer in the league. 2nd is 2nd etc. They would just all be playing for the Red Army.

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05-11-2005, 05:34 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Also, it must be considered the level of competition Tretiak and other Red Army players had in the Soviet league.

The Red Army took any good player from the other teams in the league and built themselves a super team. If a guy played for Dynamo and he was becoming a star, next year he played for Red Army. I think Red Army won 11 championships in a row or even more because the league was a farce. Red Army took all the good players so, the level of competition faced by Tretiak was diminished.

I remember Tretiak musing about how great it would be to have Russia's best team play the NHL's best team every year for the world title. Because Montreal was so good at the time, it seemed that he thought the NHL was like the Russian league where the best players were funnelled to the Habs every year and they were always the best team. He wanted a Red Army vs. Montreal Canadiens series every year.
No denying CKSA was the best team in the league, but the standings suggest they weren't as dominant in the regular season as you claim.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991971.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991972.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991973.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991979.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991980.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991981.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991982.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991983.html

That said, I do agree that the Red Army's situation was comparable to Montreal's during that era. Does that mean we should dminish what Montreal accomplished the same way Stephen is trying to do to Soviet players? I think not.

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05-11-2005, 05:37 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
No denying CKSA was the best team in the league, but the standings suggest they weren't as dominant in the regular season as you claim.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991971.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991972.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991973.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991979.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991980.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991981.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991982.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...a19991983.html

That said, I do agree that the Red Army's situation was comparable to Montreal's during that era. Does that mean we should dminish what Montreal accomplished the same way Stephen is trying to do to Soviet players? I think not.
I just had a look through those stats and, the looked damn dominant. Losing two or three games a year and some years they had all 10 of the top 10 scorers. During the 82-83 season they scored 7 goals per game and gave up less than 2. That kind of dominance would never happen in a legitimate league.

Take a look at the goal scoring leaders in 1972-73. This was league leaders :

Vladimir Petrov, CSKA............ 27
2 Anatoly Firsov, CSKA............. 25
3 Boris Mikhailov, CSKA............ 24
4 Vladimir Vikulov, CSKA........... 21
5 Valeri Kharlamov, CSKA........... 19
6 Sergei Glazov, CSKA.............. 13
6 Evgeny Mishakov, CSKA............ 13
8 Yuri Blinov, CSKA................ 12
9 Vladimir Trunov, CSKA............ 11
10 Vladimir Popov, CSKA............. 8


Red Army's situation was nothing close to Montreal's. The Habs came by it honestly via the draft, and trades. The Red Army just scooped whoever they wanted. Very different. Montreal was impressive, Red Army was a farce.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 05-11-2005 at 05:42 PM.
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