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Hasek, Roy, Sawchuk or Tretiak?

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Old
05-12-2005, 02:25 PM
  #101
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Back on topic.. the only thing that's missing in Hasek's resume to make him clearly the best ever is playoffs. He's always been great in just about every playoff game but the fact that he started being a starter at the age of 28 and then being on some bad teams like in 96 not making the playoffs and 97 getting injured in just the third game of round 1 really hurt some great upportunities to win a cup. In 1998 it was all Hasek beating the Habs single handedly and then the Bruins only to lose to Washington and in 1999 of course he lost on an illegal goal in the finals. 2000 was a big dissapointment being eliminated in 5 games in the first round (he didnt win the vezina that year as he only played in 35 games adds insult to injury). In 2001 he beat the Flyers and then was about to eliminate the pens in the second round in game 6 when a fluke goal got the game into overtime and then all went downhill as he also lost game 7. 2002 he got traded to the red wings and finally won a cup and hasnt played much since. Too bad he wasnt on great teams for most of his career as he would've won just as much if not more then Roy and solidify his place as the best ever period.

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05-12-2005, 02:58 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
As Ogogpogo stated, the draft wasn't instituted until 1969. Do you really think the Canadiens stopped benefitting from the previous rule right then? All the players they got from the "French Canadian" rule didn't magically retire in '69 and the Habs benefitted for decades.
Vic, the rule was never exercised though,except for Plasse,Houle,Tardif. This rule has always been a misconception. It had absolutely no effect.

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05-12-2005, 03:08 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
As Ogogpogo stated, the draft wasn't instituted until 1969. Do you really think the Canadiens stopped benefitting from the previous rule right then? All the players they got from the "French Canadian" rule didn't magically retire in '69 and the Habs benefitted for decades.
Get your facts straight ... I wont even bother giving you the real facts behind the "French Canadian" rule.

Before that, every team had their protected area, just like Montreal had theirs.

*EDIT*

Well, Mcphee provided the details in his post ...

As he said, this rule was only exercised twice, and the three mentioned above were the only three ever "drafted" under that rule.

Hardly anything consequential ... Houle and Tardif were pretty decent players, but they were also depth 3rd/4rth liners when they were on the Habs.

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05-12-2005, 10:35 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
I think this is the best post put forth in this thread. Comparing really is impossible. My point is that it's entirely unfair (and very arrogant to a degree) to discount the talent of guys like Kharlamov, Tretiak, and Holocek simply because we didn't get to see them play on a nightly basis. If Kharlamov's performance in the Summit Series is any indication, this guy was unbelievable. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing, other than the accounts of others to know if he was that good all the time. In the end, I think it's sad that so many of the North American posters here refuse to acknowledge that very competitive hockey was being played on the other side of the Atlantic.
I think you're purposely misinterpreting what people are saying here. Like mcphee stated so eloquently, as North Americans, we have no idea what Tretiak was like in his heyday back home.
We do know that there was great hockey being played in the USSR and in Europe in the 1970s, but there's no way of putting that into modern NHL context, which I think is the benchmark for hockey since the league is home to the world's best today. At the same time, we do know that the Soviet league tended to stack Red Army, and that's why they often had seasons of .900+ winning percentages. So competition wasn't always fair, and Tretiak's numbers may have benefited as a result. From what we've seen of Tretiak in tournaments, he was great, but there's still no real way to put that into context since they didn't happen all the time.

At the same time, guys like Roy and Hasek played in a league that featured the best North Americans and Europeans for much of their careers. In this competitive environment, they were still able to dominate and achieve a lot of individual awards.

So, given that Tretiak played in farce leagues where there was very little parity (judging by the numbers and the Red Army roster), given that Tretiak didn't face the best North Americans day in and day out, that we know so little about him, it's hard to rank him ahead of guys who we've seen on a daily basis and who have excelled in leagues with the best talent on both sides of the Atlantic.

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05-13-2005, 12:52 AM
  #105
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Sawchuk was the best puckstopper ever. Just look at footage - tiny pads and no helmet. He was an animal.

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05-13-2005, 06:33 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen

So, given that Tretiak played in farce leagues where there was very little parity (judging by the numbers and the Red Army roster), given that Tretiak didn't face the best North Americans day in and day out, that we know so little about him, it's hard to rank him ahead of guys who we've seen on a daily basis and who have excelled in leagues with the best talent on both sides of the Atlantic.
Many other Soviet teams like Dynamo, Spartak and Soviet Wings always did very well against the NHL competition. Iīm not saying that the Soviet league was NHLīs equal but still better than you seem to think.

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05-13-2005, 12:45 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Marcus-74
Many other Soviet teams like Dynamo, Spartak and Soviet Wings always did very well against the NHL competition. Iīm not saying that the Soviet league was NHLīs equal but still better than you seem to think.
I'm not denying there wasn't great talent or hockey being played in the USSR. My whole point is this: the Soviet leagues featured teams that were stacked. There was very little parity judging by the league standings and the Red Army rosters.
But even assuming that the Soviet league was completely competitive, Tretiak only played against the best Soviet players in his league, whereas Hasek and Roy played the best of Europe AS WELL AS North Americans, so they accomplished more against more competitive talent.

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05-13-2005, 12:51 PM
  #108
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Well many hockey legends such as Lafleur have said he was the best goalie they have ever played against. Doesn't that count for something?

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05-13-2005, 12:56 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Well many hockey legends such as Lafleur have said he was the best goalie they have ever played against. Doesn't that count for something?
Kovy, I don't think it does. A lot of these guys like Lafleur played about 8 games against him, not really enough to be an expert. Beliveau played Sawchuck 14 games in a season.

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05-13-2005, 01:18 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Well many hockey legends such as Lafleur have said he was the best goalie they have ever played against. Doesn't that count for something?
If you had a guy who somehow played Tretiak, Plante, Roy, Hasek, Sawchuk, Bower, Hall, Vezina, Esposito, Belfour, Brodeur and all the other greats while he was at the top of his game and said "Tretiak is the best of them all," then maybe.

But it's not like Lafleur had any experience with the NHL greats before 1970, or after 1990, when Hasek and Roy were in their primes.

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05-13-2005, 02:20 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
If you had a guy who somehow played Tretiak, Plante, Roy, Hasek, Sawchuk, Bower, Hall, Vezina, Esposito, Belfour, Brodeur and all the other greats while he was at the top of his game and said "Tretiak is the best of them all," then maybe.

But it's not like Lafleur had any experience with the NHL greats before 1970, or after 1990, when Hasek and Roy were in their primes.
Agreed. Also it is well known that certain goalies have certain players numbers and vice versa. Fill the net on one guy, couldn't put a BB past the other. This would certainly color a players opinion of that goalie.

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05-13-2005, 02:23 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
Kovy, I don't think it does. A lot of these guys like Lafleur played about 8 games against him, not really enough to be an expert. Beliveau played Sawchuck 14 games in a season.
Well yeah you have a point there but still it has to count for something no? By the way anybody know who Beliveau, Howe, Wayne, Mario,etc have said is the best goalie ever? I remember Wayne saying Hasek was the best after the 98 olympics but I'm not quite sure. Anyone can help me out here?

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05-13-2005, 06:20 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Well yeah you have a point there but still it has to count for something no? By the way anybody know who Beliveau, Howe, Wayne, Mario,etc have said is the best goalie ever? I remember Wayne saying Hasek was the best after the 98 olympics but I'm not quite sure. Anyone can help me out here?
I know that Beliveau has said that the performance of Patrick Roy in Game 3 or the Habs series versus the Rangers in 1986 was the greatest display of clutch goaltending he has ever seen. 47 shots. 13 in overtime. And he was a rookie. In Madison Square Garden. Getting goosebumps thinking about it.

In his playing days Gros Bill used to say he had trouble with Glenn Hall, but that's about it.

Wayne has often praised Fuhr as the best athlete he's ever played with.

Don't know about a Mario though.

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05-13-2005, 06:34 PM
  #114
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1. Sawchuk

2. Hasek

3a. Tretiak
3b. Roy

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05-13-2005, 06:55 PM
  #115
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roy has the rings -

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05-14-2005, 05:27 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
If you had a guy who somehow played Tretiak, Plante, Roy, Hasek, Sawchuk, Bower, Hall, Vezina, Esposito, Belfour, Brodeur and all the other greats while he was at the top of his game and said "Tretiak is the best of them all," then maybe.

But it's not like Lafleur had any experience with the NHL greats before 1970, or after 1990, when Hasek and Roy were in their primes.
Isn't there a double standard there though? I mean did anyone play against all those guys enough to make that kind of value judgement?

Ultimately, though, I have to concede that we really don't have a yardstick to guage guys like Tretiak and Holocek, which is a shame. Had they played in the NHL, I honestly believe their names would be right up there. I've heard that Holocek is considered in a lot of circles to have been better than Tretiak and Hasek and the arguments for Tretiak's merits are abound in this thread. In the end though, there's not really any way to know for sure.

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05-14-2005, 05:49 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic

Ultimately, though, I have to concede that we really don't have a yardstick to guage guys like Tretiak and Holocek, which is a shame. Had they played in the NHL, I honestly believe their names would be right up there. I've heard that Holocek is considered in a lot of circles to have been better than Tretiak and Hasek and the arguments for Tretiak's merits are abound in this thread. In the end though, there's not really any way to know for sure.
Oh so true; we just donīt know. Maybe Tretiak would have made it big in the NHL, but I think that his "greatness" is some sort of a myth. You know, there are people who have this image in their head that Tretiak was brilliant every second in every bloody game he played and never let any bad goals... and thatīs simply not true. As already mentioned, the Czech goalies like Holecek and Dzurilla were often better than him, and so were some Canadian goalies also.

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05-14-2005, 05:56 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus-74
Oh so true; we just donīt know. Maybe Tretiak would have made it big in the NHL, but I think that his "greatness" is some sort of a myth. You know, there are people who have this image in their head that Tretiak was brilliant every second in every bloody game he played and never let any bad goals... and thatīs simply not true. As already mentioned, the Czech goalies like Holecek and Dzurilla were often better than him, and so were some Canadian goalies also.
I agree. Tretiak was certainly not infallible. The last 4 games of the Summit Series and the 1980 medal round prove that. I just think it's really a shame we never got to see him catch fire during the Stanley Cup playoffs (although that might've meant some kid named Roy never reaching his potential either, since the Habs owned Tretiak's rights in NA. How weird would that have been?)

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05-14-2005, 12:28 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
I agree. Tretiak was certainly not infallible. The last 4 games of the Summit Series and the 1980 medal round prove that. I just think it's really a shame we never got to see him catch fire during the Stanley Cup playoffs (although that might've meant some kid named Roy never reaching his potential either, since the Habs owned Tretiak's rights in NA. How weird would that have been?)
That would have been very weird...

It's also kind of interesting that Hasek was drafted in that same 1983 draft. I wonder how things would have worked out for Montreal had they taken Hasek instead of Tretiak..

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05-14-2005, 03:07 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Stephen
That would have been very weird...

It's also kind of interesting that Hasek was drafted in that same 1983 draft. I wonder how things would have worked out for Montreal had they taken Hasek instead of Tretiak..
Probably would have stayed the same. Hasek didnt come over to NA till 1990. didnt become a starting goalie until 93 94. He would have been in the same situation he was in in Chicago. back up to at the time one of the best goalies in the league

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05-29-2005, 08:49 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomCanuckFan
1. Sawchuk

2. Hasek

3a. Tretiak
3b. Roy
I wonder if guys like you who are throwing out Sawchuk and some of the older players' names have even seen them play on tape, let alone when they were actually playing...

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