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In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) XXXVI

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05-23-2013, 01:15 PM
  #276
henchman24
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I know, I don't think anyone else is. Look at this D though, how is he not expendable to add another offensive winger?

Coburn - EJ
Hejda - Jones
O'Brien - Elliott
Siemens

Does he really need to be kept so he can be shifted to his off side, and played with another offensive D like Jones or Elliott who need defensively responsible partners?
Barrie has played the left side quite well before... multiple years in fact. I'm not worried about him going to his 'off-side.'

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05-23-2013, 01:16 PM
  #277
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Miller is a dbag and one of the very few players in the NHL I can't stand. Luckily the Avs won't be making a move for him anytime soon.


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05-23-2013, 01:19 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Barrie has played the left side quite well before... multiple years in fact. I'm not worried about him going to his 'off-side.'
When in junior or LEM? He hasn't done it with the Avs. Bit of a difference between between those and the NHL in how much room he has to skate with the puck in the middle of the ice rather than closer to the boards.

Even if he has no problems making the switch, I'll still trade him for a winger. He's a luxury with EJ, Jones, and Elliott, and the team needs another skilled winger, preferably a vet to lean on. They should be keeping the Coburn type with EJ so they have a shutdown duo. Then he'd be playing with Jones or Elliott which isn't a great idea.

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05-23-2013, 01:23 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
That's the problem. You don't have a pairing that has two D that are strong in their own end in the NHL. That's too much to expect of Jones for a few years.

I'll take my group any day of the week over that. Having Coburn and EJ match up against top lines, and also be able to skate and provide offense would be huge for this team. I'll take a skilled winger, over shifting Barrie to his off side, hoping he starts to produce more regularly, and having no shutdown matchup.
Fair enough, and I see where you're coming from. I just think Barrie is more beneficial than O'Brien. A fear of mine about a Coburn-EJ pairing is they could end up putting only like 10 points up. Although, on the flip side, maybe EJ brings back his offensive game with a steady defence-first partner.

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05-23-2013, 01:24 PM
  #280
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Fair enough, and I see where you're coming from. I just think Barrie is more beneficial than O'Brien. A fear of mine about a Coburn-EJ pairing is they could end up putting only like 10 points up. Although, on the flip side, maybe EJ brings back his offensive game with a steady defence-first partner.
I personally wouldn't be too concerned. I think they both put up 20-30 points easily if paired together, and healthy.

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05-23-2013, 01:32 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
When in junior or LEM? He hasn't done it with the Avs. Bit of a difference between between those and the NHL in how much room he has to skate with the puck in the middle of the ice rather than closer to the boards.

Even if he has no problems making the switch, I'll still trade him for a winger. He's a luxury with EJ, Jones, and Elliott, and the team needs another skilled winger, preferably a vet to lean on.
Junior. He was paired with Myers mostly, but I recall some time with Schenn as well. He is the type that can switch sides easily and I wouldn't worry about it.

I don't think you give up on Barrie simply because of the flashes you can see in him. The last 8 games of the season he didn't play less than 23 minutes in any game. That is top pairing like minutes. For the season he averaged 21:34 a game. If you are a believer in advanced stats, Barrie has great advanced stats (better than Brodin from Minnesota). I have said for a long time that Barrie is a safe bet to be a #3 and that is his ceiling, and I hold to that.... If this year is any indication and he grows on it a bit, he will prove me wrong because he will be a #2 defensemen if he does.

You simply don't trade a possible top pairing defender when they are still developing. Same goes for Elliott, but I think he is a year behind Barrie ATM.

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05-23-2013, 01:52 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Junior. He was paired with Myers mostly, but I recall some time with Schenn as well. He is the type that can switch sides easily and I wouldn't worry about it.

I don't think you give up on Barrie simply because of the flashes you can see in him. The last 8 games of the season he didn't play less than 23 minutes in any game. That is top pairing like minutes. For the season he averaged 21:34 a game. If you are a believer in advanced stats, Barrie has great advanced stats (better than Brodin from Minnesota). I have said for a long time that Barrie is a safe bet to be a #3 and that is his ceiling, and I hold to that.... If this year is any indication and he grows on it a bit, he will prove me wrong because he will be a #2 defensemen if he does.

You simply don't trade a possible top pairing defender when they are still developing. Same goes for Elliott, but I think he is a year behind Barrie ATM.
I'm not really a big believer in advanced stats. Say for instance he never improved from what he is now, and stayed somewhat of a defensive liability and only chips in about 20-30 points a year. He's apparently got great advanced stats, but that's a pretty average player. Sounds like Brett Clark.

You contradicted yourself also. You said a #3 is his ceiling, and then called him a top pairing defender. I agree a #3 is his ceiling, but I disagree that he's a safe bet to reach that. I'm a bit worried that with all his flash, he's still not producing at a high rate despite playing 20 plus minutes.

I think you trade a potential #3 for a an offensive winger, when you have EJ, Jones, Elliott, and Siemens (to go along with Coburn in my idea) to build your D around. If he turns out to be a good #3, so what. You still have a very good D core, and an offensive winger.

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05-23-2013, 01:56 PM
  #283
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You have more faith in Elliott than I do , at this point.

I need to SEE him play better in the NHL than Barrie before I hold onto him over Barrie.

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05-23-2013, 01:58 PM
  #284
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Of the quartet of EJ, Jones, Elliott and Siemens, one is struggling, one is still trying to find his place in the NHL and the two others (of which one isn't even Avs property) are a complete unknown in the NHL.

For the life of me I can't find good reasoning as to why Barrie would be on the market since he's the guy who's ahead of the pack in terms of the defensive prospects in our organization and he looks damn promising. I guess we need another Shatty to whine about every time he scores a point for his new team.

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05-23-2013, 02:07 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
You have more faith in Elliott than I do , at this point.

I need to SEE him play better in the NHL than Barrie before I hold onto him over Barrie.
I dont' have any more faith in Elliott than I do Barrie. I just think Barrie has more trade value, and Elliott's ceiling is higher. I was actually impressed with how much he improved his defensive game as well this year.

He's essentially on the 3rd pairing even strength, so it's not that big of a deal.

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Of the quartet of EJ, Jones, Elliott and Siemens, one is struggling, one is still trying to find his place in the NHL and the two others (of which one isn't even Avs property) are a complete unknown in the NHL.

For the life of me I can't find good reasoning as to why Barrie would be on the market since he's the guy who's ahead of the pack in terms of the defensive prospects in our organization and he looks damn promising. I guess we need another Shatty to whine about every time he scores a point for his new team.
Because it should be pretty obvious to those who have seen Jones and Siemens play that they will be NHL, and probably good ones. The problem is everyone is whining that Barrie would be another Shatty, when he hasn't even become one yet.

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05-23-2013, 02:10 PM
  #286
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Of the quartet of EJ, Jones, Elliott and Siemens, one is struggling, one is still trying to find his place in the NHL and the two others (of which one isn't even Avs property) are a complete unknown in the NHL.

For the life of me I can't find good reasoning as to why Barrie would be on the market since he's the guy who's ahead of the pack in terms of the defensive prospects in our organization and he looks damn promising. I guess we need another Shatty to whine about every time he scores a point for his new team.
And here is where I'm going to have to put my flamesuit on.... Barrie will be a better overall defensemen than Shattenkirk will be over the course of their careers. I know it is a fairly bold statement, but Barrie is already of Shattenkirk defensively. Barrie doesn't get the sheltered minutes that Shattenkirk does and plays against better quality of competition.

Then one stat really stands out... offensive zone finish %... Barrie 58.6% Shattenkirk 46.4%. Their offensive zone start numbers Barrie 51.3% Shattenkirk 57%

<- Runs for cover

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05-23-2013, 02:14 PM
  #287
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Looks like Ales Hemsky might be available: Link to Edmonton Journal.

Not sure how I'd feel about it. He's flirted with point per game most of his career but has been injured quite a bit recently. It would probably be a salary dump for Edmonton and he's only got one more season left on his contract (although that year costs 5M.) Would there be any interest in him for the AVs?

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05-23-2013, 02:19 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
And here is where I'm going to have to put my flamesuit on.... Barrie will be a better overall defensemen than Shattenkirk will be over the course of their careers. I know it is a fairly bold statement, but Barrie is already of Shattenkirk defensively. Barrie doesn't get the sheltered minutes that Shattenkirk does and plays against better quality of competition.

Then one stat really stands out... offensive zone finish %... Barrie 58.6% Shattenkirk 46.4%. Their offensive zone start numbers Barrie 51.3% Shattenkirk 57%

<- Runs for cover
Nailed it.

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05-23-2013, 02:23 PM
  #289
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Looks like Ales Hemsky might be available: Link to Edmonton Journal.

Not sure how I'd feel about it. He's flirted with point per game most of his career but has been injured quite a bit recently. It would probably be a salary dump for Edmonton and he's only got one more season left on his contract (although that year costs 5M.) Would there be any interest in him for the AVs?
With Dutch and PAP...it could be GREAT...or it could be a huge disappointment.

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05-23-2013, 02:25 PM
  #290
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And here is where I'm going to have to put my flamesuit on.... Barrie will be a better overall defensemen than Shattenkirk will be over the course of their careers. I know it is a fairly bold statement, but Barrie is already of Shattenkirk defensively. Barrie doesn't get the sheltered minutes that Shattenkirk does and plays against better quality of competition.

Then one stat really stands out... offensive zone finish %... Barrie 58.6% Shattenkirk 46.4%. Their offensive zone start numbers Barrie 51.3% Shattenkirk 57%

<- Runs for cover
Totally disagree. Barrie is not on Shatty's level defensively right now, and the only reason he may have a few more defensive zone starts (not even sure if he does) is because the Avs had an idiot head coach, while the Blues have one of the best, and the Avs didn't have Pietrangelo, Jackman, or Bouwmeester.

By the way, talk about an example for misleading advanced stats. What is offensive zone finish %? Is that with the whole group out on the ice? So the team and the system don't come into play at all in that?

Barrie had a lower PPG and GPG percentage last year than Shattenkirk. That's a more accurate stat.

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05-23-2013, 02:26 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I dont' have any more faith in Elliott than I do Barrie. I just think Barrie has more trade value, and Elliott's ceiling is higher. I was actually impressed with how much he improved his defensive game as well this year.

He's essentially on the 3rd pairing even strength, so it's not that big of a deal.



Because it should be pretty obvious to those who have seen Jones and Siemens play that they will be NHL, and probably good ones. The problem is everyone is whining that Barrie would be another Shatty, when he hasn't even become one yet.
I've seen a lot of Seth and Duncan, but that doesn't change the fact they're unproven.


As for the bolded, lets trade him before we even gave him a decent chance to prove what's he really capable of.

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05-23-2013, 02:27 PM
  #292
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With Dutch and PAP...it could be GREAT...or it could be a huge disappointment.
I don't think one puck is enough for Dutch and Hemsky. Hemsky's got some sick dangles. I kinda wonder how he'd work with Stastny...especially if Jones pulls his head out of his ass and gets back to playing hockey.

Probably won't ever happen though..us trading for Hemsky, not Jones recovering his game (although I'm not overly optimistic about that either.)

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05-23-2013, 02:27 PM
  #293
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And here is where I'm going to have to put my flamesuit on.... Barrie will be a better overall defensemen than Shattenkirk will be over the course of their careers. I know it is a fairly bold statement, but Barrie is already of Shattenkirk defensively. Barrie doesn't get the sheltered minutes that Shattenkirk does and plays against better quality of competition.

Then one stat really stands out... offensive zone finish %... Barrie 58.6% Shattenkirk 46.4%. Their offensive zone start numbers Barrie 51.3% Shattenkirk 57%

<- Runs for cover
I think you hit it on the head. Of the Blues games I saw against the Avs this year...Shatty didnt look all that great. I think Barrie was maybe our best Dman and the fact that we sent him down was beyond irritating.

When Elliott came up late in the year, I thought he was pretty darn good too. Both have bright careers ahead of them. Im not eager to get rid of either for at least another year unless there is an overpayment. I would like to see who we draft (hopefully Jones imo) and how Siemens and Jones look this coming year whether that be on the Avs (Jones) or in LE (Siemens maybe with a call up or two)

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05-23-2013, 02:30 PM
  #294
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Totally disagree. Barrie is not on Shatty's level defensively right now, and the only reason he may have a few more defensive zone starts (not even sure if he does) is because the Avs had an idiot head coach, while the Blues have one of the best, and the Avs didn't have Pietrangelo, Jackman, or Bouwmeester.

By the way, talk about an example for misleading advanced stats. What is offensive zone finish %? Is that with the whole group out on the ice? So the team and the system don't come into play at all in that?

Barrie had a lower PPG and GPG percentage last year than Shattenkirk. That's a more accurate stat.


A 3rd year NHL regular who gets to play in a whole lot of prime offensive situations had a higher PPG than a rookie on a team that was terrible offensively? Quelle suprise.

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05-23-2013, 02:31 PM
  #295
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I don't think one puck is enough for Dutch and Hemsky. Hemsky's got some sick dangles. I kinda wonder how he'd work with Stastny...especially if Jones pulls his head out of his ass and gets back to playing hockey.

Probably won't ever happen though..us trading for Hemsky, not Jones recovering his game (although I'm not overly optimistic about that either.)
Interesting point about Staz... He could really benefit from a guy like that...

What about...

Downie - Dutch - PAP
Landy - ROR - Jones
McGinn - Staz - Hemsky

Jones would need to learn how to use his size a bit better and not be drunk all season...if he can...that could be an AMAZING top 9

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05-23-2013, 02:34 PM
  #296
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I've seen a lot of Seth and Duncan, but that doesn't change the fact they're unproven.
Just because Jones hasn't played in the NHL yet, means you should be worried about him. I'll show it again. Barrie is a luxury to add to this group.

Coburn - EJ
Hejda - Jones
O'Brien - Elliott
Siemens

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As for the bolded, lets trade him before we even gave him a decent chance to prove what's he really capable of.
People are obsessed with this. That's the only time you trade players like that. If you wait to see them develop into an average offensive defenseman, that isn't that good defensively, no one wants them.

The Avs would have plenty of depth with the group above, and even if he did develop into a good D, they still have a good D unit themselves, and a good offensive winger that they traded him for.

You have to give to get, and you can't be precious about all your prospects, and hope to draft your way to the Cup.

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05-23-2013, 02:37 PM
  #297
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Interesting point about Staz... He could really benefit from a guy like that...

What about...

Downie - Dutch - PAP
Landy - ROR - Jones
McGinn - Staz - Hemsky

Jones would need to learn how to use his size a bit better and not be drunk all season...if he can...that could be an AMAZING top 9
I'd be down for that...I really like the idea of Downie playing with Dutch and PAP...it gives them even more, how to say this delicately, unpredictability and swagger. I also like allowing Landy and ROR to counter Jones' lack of great defensive play. McGinn and Stastny have shown chemistry in the past. I really could talk myself into liking that lineup for the start of next season.

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05-23-2013, 02:39 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Just because Jones hasn't played in the NHL yet, means you should be worried about him. I'll show it again. Barrie is a luxury to add to this group.

Coburn - EJ
Hejda - Jones
O'Brien - Elliott
Siemens



People are obsessed with this. That's the only time you trade players like that. If you wait to see them develop into an average offensive defenseman, that isn't that good defensively, no one wants them.

The Avs would have plenty of depth with the group above, and even if he did develop into a good D, they still have a good D unit themselves, and a good offensive winger that they traded him for.

You have to give to get, and you can't be precious about all your prospects, and hope to draft your way to the Cup.
Yeah you do, but you also need to realize that it's sometimes better to stay put than say trade Regher for Theo Fleury.

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05-23-2013, 02:45 PM
  #299
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What would it take to get Ty Rattie? I have been very very impressed with his play in the memorial cup.

Anyone else think he could be a very good top 6 player?

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05-23-2013, 02:49 PM
  #300
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A 3rd year NHL regular who gets to play in a whole lot of prime offensive situations had a higher PPG than a rookie on a team that was terrible offensively? Quelle suprise.
These advanced stats are not an argument for who's better. They're interesting to look at, but aren't the end all be all.

Here's the proof.

Shattenkirk averaged 28.1 shifts per game last year, 57% of which were offensive zone starts.

Barrie averaged 27.6 shifts per game, 51.3% were offensive zone starts.

So that means on average, Shattenkirk had 16 shifts start in the offensive zone, while Barrie had 14. What a huge deal.

Two extra offensive zone starts per game doesn't guarantee anyone more points, and there's so much that goes into scoring goals from a team perspective, that offensive zone starts are no way to prove anything what so ever about the player. It's a way to show how each coach runs his bench, and doesn't take into account how good the rest of the players on the team are.

But they're nice to look at.

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