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06-11-2013, 10:27 AM
  #876
Pens1566
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
This doesn't make any sense. That was my point. The whole team was invisible so I don't understand why the poster I originally replied to was singling out Iginla as 'useless' when many others were as well. And it's not 'moving the goalposts' to point out his EV strength production as an indication that he was invisible. That is called 'supporting an argument'

EV goals isn't a ridiculous argument, EV strength goals are pretty damn important and the bottom line is the last time he scored one on Sid's wing was Game 4 of the Islanders series (he scored another later in the series assisted by Vitale I think after a PP ended)

So if the so called "King" of EV strength was only productive at EV strength for the first series, than what does that say about him in the other two? Answer: He had one strong series and then was basically invisible for the rest.

That's really awesome that he's the 5th leading scorer or whatever, but like I said in my original post "he was nonexistent as a top six forward in these playoffs." He struggles creating on his own and drawing attention away from Sid.
No. It's ridiculous to call out someone based on one stat cherry picked at random that you think supports your argument. Unless you want to leave out the 2 SHG Dupuis put up in the 5 game Ottawa series. How is that "invisible"???

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06-11-2013, 10:32 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
No. It's ridiculous to call out someone based on one stat cherry picked at random that you think supports your argument. Unless you want to leave out the 2 SHG Dupuis put up in the 5 game Ottawa series. How is that "invisible"???
Original argument: "He was nonexistent as a top six forward in the playoffs"

But pointing out his production as a top six forward in the playoffs is cherry picking at random. Got it.

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06-11-2013, 10:44 AM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post
Original argument: "He was nonexistent as a top six forward in the playoffs"

But pointing out his production as a top six forward in the playoffs is cherry picking at random. Got it.
Top 6 != limiting to even strength. Tied for team lead in scoring during playoffs. How about that metric? Doesn't fit your argument? Oops.

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06-11-2013, 10:46 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
Top 6 != limiting to even strength. Tied for team lead in scoring during playoffs. How about that metric? Doesn't fit your argument? Oops.
he didn't produce at ES while on the Crosby line. You have no answer for that, but I do enjoy you...

never mind, I'm not going to say something funny, because I don't really enjoy it. I'm sorry.

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06-11-2013, 10:53 AM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
Top 6 != limiting to even strength. Tied for team lead in scoring during playoffs. How about that metric? Doesn't fit your argument? Oops.


Yes. Top 6 is limiting to even strength.

I never said he was invisible in other aspects but as a TOP SIX forward he was.

You keep repeating that he was tied for the team lead in goal scoring. Like I said, that's awesome, but it doesn't work for or against my argument in anyway.

Because, once again, the only thing I ever said (which seemed to offend you for some reason) was that he was nonexistent as a top six forward.

So, now like a broken record, I will point out to you that the last time he scored a goal, in the roll that I mentioned, was 11 games ago.

Others were invisible, too. It wasn't just him, but he was. I'm sorry that upsets you.

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06-11-2013, 11:00 AM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Waffle Fries View Post


Yes. Top 6 is limiting to even strength.

I never said he was invisible in other aspects but as a TOP SIX forward he was.

You keep repeating that he was tied for the team lead in goal scoring. Like I said, that's awesome, but it doesn't work for or against my argument in anyway.

Because, once again, the only thing I ever said (which seemed to offend you for some reason) was that he was nonexistent as a top six forward.

So, now like a broken record, I will point out to you that the last time he scored a goal, in the roll that I mentioned, was 11 games ago.

Others were invisible, too. It wasn't just him, but he was. I'm sorry that upsets you.
I think the vast majority of the posters on this forum would disagree with you on your definition then.

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06-11-2013, 11:04 AM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
I think the vast majority of the posters on this forum would disagree with you on your definition then.
Let's make a bet. Create a poll. If the vast majority of people on this board think top-6 means pp and pk, I'll delete my account. If they think it means ES, you delete yours. Bet?

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06-11-2013, 11:06 AM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
I think the vast majority of the posters on this forum would disagree with you on your definition then.
When Pascal Dupuis goes out on the ice for penalty killing, he's not a top six forward.

When Craig Adams goes out on the ice for penalty killing, he's not a fourth liner.

When a player goes out on the ice for penalty killing, they are penalty killers.

But I don't even know why I'm entertaining this right now.

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06-11-2013, 11:07 AM
  #884
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Let's make a bet. Create a poll. If the vast majority of people on this board think top-6 means pp and pk, I'll delete my account. If they think it means ES, you delete yours. Bet?
Why would it be arbitrarily limited to any particular phase of the game? That's the point. If you consistently play on a scoring line, and are one of the top producers on the team, you're top 6. This isn't rocket science.

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06-11-2013, 11:09 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
Why would it be arbitrarily limited to any particular phase of the game? That's the point. If you consistently play on a scoring line, and are one of the top producers on the team, you're top 6. This isn't rocket science.
Bet?

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06-11-2013, 11:10 AM
  #886
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Bet?
If we're making the poll, at least state the positions correctly. One side says top 6 is limited to EV production, the other doesn't make that distinction at all. Right?

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06-11-2013, 11:12 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
Why would it be arbitrarily limited to any particular phase of the game? That's the point. If you consistently play on a scoring line, and are one of the top producers on the team, you're top 6. This isn't rocket science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
If we're making the poll, at least state the positions correctly. One side says top 6 is limited to EV production, the other doesn't make that distinction at all. Right?
Top-6 is an ES designation.

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06-11-2013, 11:13 AM
  #888
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Originally Posted by CGYPUKSUX View Post
You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee. Bylsma did use Iginla properly. He tied his ass to the bench and went with better players that wouldn't hurt the Penguins by forcing them to play 4-on-5 in their own zone. All of the as,e things you are trying to pin on Bylsma a large number of Flames fans have attempted to blame on a string of coaches who worked for the Flames. The problem wasn't the coach, it the player refusing to change his game and be part of the team game. Iginla plays his game and to he'll with the coach. Stand behind your coach and get players who will execute their duties at both ends of the ice. Iginla isn't one of them. Unless you want to hire Mike Keenan, stay away from Iginla. He'll be a big reason why your team underachieves.
Sort of like how kovalchuk scored all those goals in Atlanta when their strategy was get him the puck all the time, only kovalchuk moved on and adapted.

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06-11-2013, 11:29 AM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
Why would it be arbitrarily limited to any particular phase of the game? That's the point. If you consistently play on a scoring line, and are one of the top producers on the team, you're top 6. This isn't rocket science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
If we're making the poll, at least state the positions correctly. One side says top 6 is limited to EV production, the other doesn't make that distinction at all. Right?
There's even strength, and then there's special teams.

At even strength there are typically four lines: a first, second, third, and fourth. The top two lines are commonly referred to as the 'top six', while the third and fourth are referred to as the 'bottom six'

There are two types of special team units, the powerplay and the penalty kill.

The powerplay typically has two units. Some teams have two defensemen and three forwards out, but the Penguins typically use one defensemen and four forwards on at least their first unit.

Jussi Jokinen and Brendan Morrow were mostly used as bottom six players, but were used on the second powerplay unit. Jarome Iginla, a top six forward, was also used on the second powerplay unit (as was James Neal when our powerplay used to be good). Dupuis, who played as a top six forward, never saw much, if any, powerplay time.

Meanwhile, the penalty kill more often that not has a forward pair and a defense pair.

Craig Adams and Matt Cooke are considered bottom six players, but both were considered, along with Dupuis, as our top penalty killing forwards.

The PP and PK are completely separate from even strength. In fact, of our 'top six' forwards, Kunitz, Neal, Malkin, and Iginla saw essentially no penalty killing time (Kunitz did a very, very, very tiny amount). Crosby only saw PK time in the form of taking faceoffs.

Being a 'top six' forward or a 'bottom six' forward and playing on the special team units aren't related.

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06-11-2013, 11:39 AM
  #890
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Can we change the thread title to "Jarome Iginla sucks, and Pascal Dupuis' even strength point production is somehow relevant."

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06-11-2013, 11:46 AM
  #891
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from a 'playing hockey' perspective, i would hope that management looks at what they can add for iginla $.

fans often forget that this is a business and as a pr/marketing chip, it's unknown what iginla's value is to the club. he has certainly brought alot of attention to the organization.

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06-11-2013, 11:52 AM
  #892
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Originally Posted by Superstar Shane View Post
Can we change the thread title to "Jarome Iginla sucks, and Pascal Dupuis' even strength point production is somehow relevant."
I originally said that it was unfair to call out Iggy as useless while others, namely Dupuis and Kunitz didn't perform well either while put in more comfortable situatons. That offended some people apparently.

I get that Iggy underperformed and the expectations for him were higher so it made it worse.

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06-11-2013, 11:58 AM
  #893
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Originally Posted by Superstar Shane View Post
Can we change the thread title to "Jarome Iginla sucks, and Pascal Dupuis' even strength point production is somehow relevant."
Shane, I like you. You're very grumpy today. Need a hug?

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06-11-2013, 01:08 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Shane, I like you. You're very grumpy today. Need a hug?
If I needed a hug, I would go get one from my BFF Pascal Dupuis, thank you very much.

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06-11-2013, 01:36 PM
  #895
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If I needed a hug, I would go get one from my BFF Pascal Dupuis, thank you very much.
how helpful are hugs from invisible men?!!

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06-11-2013, 02:19 PM
  #896
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How much time as a top-six RIGHT-winger did Iggy have with us, anyway?

Who DIDN'T like Dupuis-Crosby-Iginla in the Islanders series, raise your hands?

I don't know, there's a whole lot of "incomplete" and "N/A = not applicable" on Iginla's Pittsburgh resume at this point.

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06-11-2013, 02:20 PM
  #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Let's make a bet. Create a poll. If the vast majority of people on this board think top-6 means pp and pk, I'll delete my account. If they think it means ES, you delete yours. Bet?
What is this the 3rd grade? C'mon guys you are better than this.

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06-11-2013, 02:28 PM
  #898
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Originally Posted by Pens1566 View Post
I think the vast majority of the posters on this forum would disagree with you on your definition then.
Yeah... No.

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06-11-2013, 02:48 PM
  #899
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What is this the 3rd grade? C'mon guys you are better than this.
???

Better than what? Proving someone wrong in an internet argument? No, no I'm not better than that.

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06-11-2013, 03:08 PM
  #900
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
???

Better than what? Proving someone wrong in an internet argument? No, no I'm not better than that.
laughed at my desk

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