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Better 2 way game: Datsyuk or Crosby

View Poll Results: Better 2 way game?
Datsyuk 102 75.56%
Crosby 33 24.44%
Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-11-2013, 12:12 PM
  #26
Lebowski
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Crosby may not be as good defensively as Datsyuk, but he's miles ahead everyone else offensively, whereas many players are as good or better than Datsyuk defensively. For that reason, high-end offensive talents are much more valuable than high-end defensive talent, since high-end offensive talents are much rarer.

Crosby being the best offensive player, while being an above average defensive player, makes him a more valuable player than Datsyuk, because there's people that can carry the load defensively other than Crosby. People paid for the most part under 2M a year.

Crosby.

The gap between 1.5 PPG and roughly 1 PPG is also much larger than the gap between their defensive play.

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05-11-2013, 12:18 PM
  #27
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Datsyuk. I consider the terms "two-way" and "overall" to be different: forwards are forwards because their primary job is to do something in the offensive zone. A forward's two-way play speaks to his ability to contribute defensively, and in this regard, Datsyuk has it.

Make no mistake, Crosby is definitely the better overall player though: he's considered the best for a reason.

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05-11-2013, 12:22 PM
  #28
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Datsyuk:

defense: 99
offense: 93
overall: 96


Crosby:

Offense: 99
defense: 93
overall: 96

Crosby is better though he's more of a game breaker.

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Old
05-11-2013, 03:28 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Crosby may not be as good defensively as Datsyuk, but he's miles ahead everyone else offensively, whereas many players are as good or better than Datsyuk defensively. For that reason, high-end offensive talents are much more valuable than high-end defensive talent, since high-end offensive talents are much rarer.

Crosby being the best offensive player, while being an above average defensive player, makes him a more valuable player than Datsyuk, because there's people that can carry the load defensively other than Crosby. People paid for the most part under 2M a year.

Crosby.

The gap between 1.5 PPG and roughly 1 PPG is also much larger than the gap between their defensive play.
A) Crosby isn't "Above Average" defensively. He's above average for a top line center and a superstar.

B) Not a single person even implied that Datsyuk was a more valuable player than Crosby. I don't think anyone but the homerist of homers would suggest it. Crosby is the best player in the league. No one is denying that or questioning that. But for the term "two-way forward", which implies a forward who is great in both zones, Crosby isn't the best. Not only is he not better than Datsyuk in this regard, he's also not better than guys like Bergeron. Two way player implies someone who is very good defensively while also contributing in the offensive zone.

Crosby lovers are the worst. You could say he's a ****** defenseman, and people will bring up his +/- to argue he's a better defenseman than Chara.

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05-11-2013, 03:40 PM
  #30
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This poll demonstrates why HF drastically overrates 2-way forwards.

Crosby isn't an ELITE defensive player, but he's well above-average. His massive advantage in offense more than compensates for being worse than Datsyuk at defense.

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05-11-2013, 04:54 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
A) Crosby isn't "Above Average" defensively. He's above average for a top line center and a superstar.

B) Not a single person even implied that Datsyuk was a more valuable player than Crosby. I don't think anyone but the homerist of homers would suggest it. Crosby is the best player in the league. No one is denying that or questioning that. But for the term "two-way forward", which implies a forward who is great in both zones, Crosby isn't the best. Not only is he not better than Datsyuk in this regard, he's also not better than guys like Bergeron. Two way player implies someone who is very good defensively while also contributing in the offensive zone.

Crosby lovers are the worst. You could say he's a ****** defenseman, and people will bring up his +/- to argue he's a better defenseman than Chara.
Everybody has his own definition of a two-way forward. To me, it's the average between offensive abilities and defensive abilities.

You seem to overvalue the defensive part - or undervalue the offensive part - in your analysis. How can a guy like Bergeron, that produces roughly 50% of the offensive output Crosby has, be considered a better two-way forward? Sure, he's better than him defensively, but is that gap is enough to not only void the gap offensively, but to overtake him as the better two-way guy? What about a guy like Plekanec then, is he a better two-way forward than Crosby? At which point does the offensive gap becomes enough so that the offensive player gets the nod?

To me, better player overall and better two-way forward is essentially the same thing. It's measuring the global impact of a player on a game based on his implication in all three zones. By my logic, the gap offensively is larger than the gap defensively. now you can think that I'm entirely wrong on this, I don't really care, we all have different definitions of what a two-way player is.

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05-11-2013, 05:19 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
Pavel Datsyuk's not gonna lose a poll on HFBoards lol.
Not when he's the best option available. Now if the question had been "who is the best player" or "who grows the best pubestache" then Crosby is certainly the winner.

But not in the "who is better two-way" poll. Being better offensively can make up for defensive shortcomings. Some are picking Crosby because he's good on faceoffs and such... but there's a problem with that. Datsyuk is better than Crosby on faceoffs.

Ultimately this comes down to an argument of semantics. Are we debating who the better forward is who plays a two-way game, or who plays a better two-way game?

And how do we define "two-way" if it is the former? There are players in the league who are not very good in either end; do they count as two-way players or no-way players? And if they are two-way players, that then must mean that the relationship is based on balance, not raw performance.

The answer isn't necessarily the same depending on definition, and that distinction is what's causing much of the arguing in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
This poll demonstrates why HF drastically overrates 2-way forwards.

Crosby isn't an ELITE defensive player, but he's well above-average. His massive advantage in offense more than compensates for being worse than Datsyuk at defense.
The "who is the better two-way forward" poll is an example of two-way forwards being overrated?

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05-11-2013, 05:44 PM
  #33
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Crosby

2012-13
+/- = +26
Corrected for ice time = +3.01 per 60 min of ice time (1st on team)
(Team's +/- when Crosby is off the ice = +0.15); Corrected for team = 3.01 - 0.15 = +2.86

2011-12
+/- = +15
Corrected for ice time = +3.35 per 60 min of ice time (1st on team)
(Team's +/- when Crosby is off the ice = +0.32); Corrected for team = 3.35 - 0.32 = +3.02

2010-11
+/- = +20
Corrected for ice time = +1.85 per 60 min of ice time (1st on team)
(Team's +/- when Crosby is off the ice = +0.30); Corrected for team = 1.85 - 0.30 = +1.55




Datsyuk

2012-13
+/- = +21
Corrected for ice time = +1.50 per 60 min of ice time (1st on team)
(Team's +/- when Datsyuk is off the ice = -0.23); Corrected for team = 1.50 - -0.23 = +1.83

2011-12
+/- = +21
Corrected for ice time = +1.41 per 60 min of ice time (3rd on team)
(Team's +/- when Datsyuk is off the ice = +0.72); Corrected for team = 1.41 - 0.72 = +0.69

2010-11
+/- = +11
Corrected for ice time = +0.93 per 60 min of ice time (2nd on team)
(Team's +/- when Datsyuk is off the ice = +0.10); Corrected for team = 0.93 - 0.10 = +0.83







Crosby trumps him in every way. Straight up, when corrected for ice time, and when corrected to the quality of teams.

Crosby > Datsyuk


Last edited by MAK19: 05-11-2013 at 06:00 PM.
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Old
05-11-2013, 06:49 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
2-way implies balance. One has a bunch of selkes, the other is okay defensively at best.
I don't believe two-way play implies balance. I believe it implies a player who can be counted on in both offensive and defensive roles. It really isn't realistic to me to expect Crosby's defensive abilities to be up to par with his offensive ones.

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05-11-2013, 06:59 PM
  #35
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2 way, as in overall? Crosby no doubt.

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05-11-2013, 08:16 PM
  #36
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Boy does datsyuk ever get his tires over inflated by this place

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Old
05-11-2013, 08:54 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Crosby

2012-13
+/- = +26
Corrected for ice time = +3.01 per 60 min of ice time (1st on team)
(Team's +/- when Crosby is off the ice = +0.15); Corrected for team = 3.01 - 0.15 = +2.86

2011-12
+/- = +15
Corrected for ice time = +3.35 per 60 min of ice time (1st on team)
(Team's +/- when Crosby is off the ice = +0.32); Corrected for team = 3.35 - 0.32 = +3.02

2010-11
+/- = +20
Corrected for ice time = +1.85 per 60 min of ice time (1st on team)
(Team's +/- when Crosby is off the ice = +0.30); Corrected for team = 1.85 - 0.30 = +1.55




Datsyuk

2012-13
+/- = +21
Corrected for ice time = +1.50 per 60 min of ice time (1st on team)
(Team's +/- when Datsyuk is off the ice = -0.23); Corrected for team = 1.50 - -0.23 = +1.83

2011-12
+/- = +21
Corrected for ice time = +1.41 per 60 min of ice time (3rd on team)
(Team's +/- when Datsyuk is off the ice = +0.72); Corrected for team = 1.41 - 0.72 = +0.69

2010-11
+/- = +11
Corrected for ice time = +0.93 per 60 min of ice time (2nd on team)
(Team's +/- when Datsyuk is off the ice = +0.10); Corrected for team = 0.93 - 0.10 = +0.83







Crosby trumps him in every way. Straight up, when corrected for ice time, and when corrected to the quality of teams.

Crosby > Datsyuk
Huge fault with this, this stat only looks at offense, it does NOT show GA for when they are on the ice, Datsyuk trumps Crosby in GA im pretty sure every year Crosby has been in the league and Dats has been the perennial Selke winner. Would make more sense to include GA in a defensive forward thread, not offense.

ps: if you include BOTH GA and GF, then Datsyuk wins. He is more reliable to score yet not be scored on.

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Old
05-11-2013, 08:55 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopShelfYzerman View Post
Huge fault with this, this stat only looks at offense, it does NOT show GA for when they are on the ice, Datsyuk trumps Crosby in GA im pretty sure every year Crosby has been in the league and Dats has been the perennial Selke winner. Would make more sense to include GA in a defensive forward thread, not offense.
Bring up the stats than, don't just say "I'm pretty sure" if you want to prove a point.

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05-11-2013, 08:59 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Bring up the stats than, don't just say "I'm pretty sure" if you want to prove a point.
It has nothing to do with me proving what most hockey fans already know, its to do with me pointing out he is cherry picking stats in favor of his person and i am calling him out on just that.

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05-11-2013, 09:39 PM
  #40
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Why is Datsyuk considered overrated by HFBoards but Crosby is not? Crosby gets ridiculous amounts of hype here as well.

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05-11-2013, 10:07 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by CowMix View Post
Why is Datsyuk considered overrated by HFBoards but Crosby is not? Crosby gets ridiculous amounts of hype here as well.
People consider Datsyuk overrated because there is a very vocal minority here that consider him the best player in the game. That has died down recently as it has become an even more obviously untrue. Crosby gets a lot of hype but he is also hated by many and is the best player in the game, so it's hard to overrate him.

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05-11-2013, 10:13 PM
  #42
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We've been through this: It's Datsyuk definsively and Crosby offensively.

Datsyuk is always up for Selke consideration. Crosby not so much(He's a good two way player, just not among the top several)

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05-11-2013, 10:19 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Bring up the stats than, don't just say "I'm pretty sure" if you want to prove a point.
I'll help him out a little..

This season:

GA/60:

Datsyuk: 1.41
Crosby: 2.25


Team GA/60 when they're off the ice:

Datsyuk: 1.98
Crosby: 1.80


SA/60:

Datsyuk: 22.9
Crosby: 27.5


As you can see, Datsyuk gets scored on less frequently by a significant margin. Furthermore, Detroit gets scored on more when Datsyuk is off the ice, while Pittsburgh gets scored on less when Crosby is off the ice. All of this despite the fact that Datsyuk plays a higher quality of competition with a lower quality of linemates.

Add in Datsyuk leading the league in takeaways (again), being better in the faceoff circle, and taken a lower rate of penalties and it's pretty clear that defensively there is no debate. There's a reason Datsyuk has been a Selke winner/finalist for the past 6 seasons now and Crosby has never been.


Overall, Crosby is a better player because of his offensive game. But when comparing them as 2-way players, I don't see how it's not Datsyuk. Although Datsyuk isn't at a Crosby level offensively, he's still one of the best in the world. He finished 10th in scoring and has had two Top 4 finishes in his career between the lockout. Crosby has never been a top 10 defensive forward or anywhere near that level.

Datsyuk:
Top 10 offensive player
Top 3 defensive player

Crosby:
Top offensive player
Top 40 defensive player maybe?


I like that example that somebody used earlier regarding Gretzky. Just because he was so amazing offensively doesn't mean he was a better 2 way player than the likes of Clarke, Trottier, Gilmour, Fedorov, etc..

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05-11-2013, 11:43 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozak View Post
Datsyuk:

defense: 99
offense: 93
overall: 96


Crosby:

Offense: 99
defense: 93
overall: 96

Crosby is better though he's more of a game breaker.
These stats...

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05-11-2013, 11:45 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
I'll help him out a little..

This season:

GA/60:

Datsyuk: 1.41
Crosby: 2.25


Team GA/60 when they're off the ice:

Datsyuk: 1.98
Crosby: 1.80


SA/60:

Datsyuk: 22.9
Crosby: 27.5


As you can see, Datsyuk gets scored on less frequently by a significant margin. Furthermore, Detroit gets scored on more when Datsyuk is off the ice, while Pittsburgh gets scored on less when Crosby is off the ice. All of this despite the fact that Datsyuk plays a higher quality of competition with a lower quality of linemates.

Add in Datsyuk leading the league in takeaways (again), being better in the faceoff circle, and taken a lower rate of penalties and it's pretty clear that defensively there is no debate. There's a reason Datsyuk has been a Selke winner/finalist for the past 6 seasons now and Crosby has never been.


Overall, Crosby is a better player because of his offensive game. But when comparing them as 2-way players, I don't see how it's not Datsyuk. Although Datsyuk isn't at a Crosby level offensively, he's still one of the best in the world. He finished 10th in scoring and has had two Top 4 finishes in his career between the lockout. Crosby has never been a top 10 defensive forward or anywhere near that level.

Datsyuk:
Top 10 offensive player
Top 3 defensive player

Crosby:
Top offensive player
Top 40 defensive player maybe?


I like that example that somebody used earlier regarding Gretzky. Just because he was so amazing offensively doesn't mean he was a better 2 way player than the likes of Clarke, Trottier, Gilmour, Fedorov, etc..
This is the most relevant post yet...

Guy bringing up +/-, those stats don't say much in terms of defensive abilities

Over the past 5 years the top +/- players are Henrik, Daniel, Chara, Burrows, someone else... so what does that prove? nothing

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05-12-2013, 12:39 AM
  #46
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Pens fan saying Datsyuk by a mile.

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05-12-2013, 05:46 AM
  #47
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Why are people acting like the poll is asking who the best OVERALL player is? The best player is Crosby - easily. But Datsyuk is specifically a two way forward in a way that Crosby is not and that's what THIS poll is asking isn't it?! Sheesh. Malkin is miles better than most players offensively and how good he is at offense outweighs his defensive liabilities. Does that make him a better two-way forward than Datsyuk? No. (I'm not saying Crosby is a 'defensive liability' but people are totally misreading the question this poll is posing)

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05-12-2013, 07:11 AM
  #48
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I woulnd consider Bergeron elite two-way player due to him not being so talented offensively.

I woulnd consider Crosby two-way player due to his deficiencies defensively.

I would consider Datsyuk ( probably best ever few years ago ), Zetterberg ( few years ago ) , Toews elite two-way players.

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05-12-2013, 07:26 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
2 way game includes offense too. which crosby is superior in. think about it.
One is elite offensively, the other is a tier below.

The problem is he's multiple tiers ahead defensively. Awful poll.

Although the funny thing is, I never understood people's logic. If hockey is a two way game and Datsyuk is the best two way player (Of course, arguments can be made for others but he's beating Crosby marginally in this poll) then wouldn't that make him the best in the game?

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05-12-2013, 07:34 AM
  #50
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Is this some kind of joke thread? Crosby isn't even close to Datsyuk defensively he's not even close to Zetterberg. Thread over it's Datsyuk by a country mile.

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