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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 4)

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Old
05-13-2013, 12:17 PM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
Potential star players than play like ****.

I don't hate anybody. I'm commenting on the on ice product without being biased. You think Price is a franchise goalie because that's what Gainey and co have told you but the on ice product have a lot to be desired.

Guess what, Desharnais and Moen suck too. They should leave.

Guess what, Subban was amazing and should stay.

Be objective. Just because they are playing for habs doesn't mean that you can't say someone sucks.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=73254

See 2010-11 thru 2012-13 seasons.

If 67 pts in 78 games with action in the AHL and NHL combined,
If 60 pts in 81 games with action in the NHL,
If 28 pts in 48 games with action in the NHL is your definition of "suck" then IMO, any arguments you say on this board, I'm going to consider invalid.

The guy's a smurf on a smurf-like team, get's on average about 60 points per 82 game season over the past 3 years and yet he "sucks"

LOL

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05-13-2013, 12:22 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And it's people like you who CONTINUOUSLY defend Price as if he has NOTHING to learn anymore that probably creates the "some of you guys" to come in full force and note that Price isn't there yet. Our GM also thinks he's not there yet. Price himself thinks he's not there yet. Somehow, some "other guys" still think he is and plays like a top 5 goalie when himself and his GM don't think so. But somehow, Price haters are the ones with an agenda.....

I would not trade Price.....yet. But next year is THE key year. End result is that it's his 6th year with only a 2nd round to show for. Will it be a good decision if we trade him? Probably not, always defending who you acquire. Will he do better elsewhere with a stronger team? I guess so but we will always be able to say 2 things if he does well elsewhere...."he wouldn't have done it here" and "well he plays under a stronger system and much better D so he has no merit....as some are implying about the other great goalies in the league....Not sure why, for Price, it should be any different unless the Price "lovers" ALSO have an agenda.
So in this vein, wouldn't it make sense for us to instead of focusing on our goalie or getting a new one... supplement him with some support on D?

Some folks believe in Price, some don't. I get that. Nobody is going to agree on every player. But I think we can all agree that the D has some shortcomings that we have to fix and we could make life easier for our goalies no?

Up front we have to go to the net. On D we have to clear it. We did neither this series despite outplaying the other team for a good portion of the time. Is it a surprise we lost? I don't think so.

Maybe Price isn't the guy, but I'd like to at least try to get him some support before throwing up our hands and giving up.

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05-13-2013, 12:32 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Sorry, but it makes no sense. Gill and Hammer...so incredible that we didn't think it was necessary to keep them. And that Bruins defense...is it the same defense we called so overrated over the years? That if Chara would be out, they'd be a pack of sieves?

And that for everybody who watched the playoffs, no matter how great those defense were...didn't people see the TONS of chances that they still ended up giving? Didn't people see how extraordinairy Quick had to be nonetheless?
We kept Gill, signed him to a 1-year deal for each of the next two seasons, then traded him during the debacle that was the 2011-12 season at the deadline to the Preds where we got a pick in return.

Hammer wanted a lot of money after the 2010-11 season I believe that we weren't willing to pay. We thought Marky Mark was coming back from his injury and would sustain us. Didn't happen. Debacle that was the following season ensues. Game, set and match.

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05-13-2013, 12:34 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Good point. Unless, he thought that the money was so incredibly there, it gave him still a security and that he thinks that a goalie with his potential, if really unhappy, would still be good enough to be moved? Yet, you can turn that question around. If he's still happy and signed an extension, why would he complain about being a rabbit in a hole? Is that what a happy person would say? I mean, you could even think it and not say it but to go as far as saying it...was this a last chance to get to the crowd to ask for some privacy?
He re-signed because he got an INCREDIBLE deal for a goalie with his career numbers thus far and at his age.

He saw that the cons (hobbit in a hole, impossible to go out, etc.) didn't outweigh the pros of remaining in Montreal. Either way, he would probably have to re-sign with MTL anyways, being an RFA at the end of last season, so he took the 6 years at 6.5 each as a pro that outweighs all the cons.

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05-13-2013, 12:56 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I'm Sorry but hammer and gill did stay with the team the next season... and how were prices numbers then? They were eventually let go because there is a thing called aging that comes into play. And as for the Boston D... they gave up the second fewest goals against this season. It's not just tuuka rask if every goalie who plays for boston with their current D corps has good stats (Thomas, Rask, Khudobin).

Also you forget to take into account the defensive system the habs were running in 2010, just like the defensive system boston runs for rask, NYR runs for Lungfish, LA runs for Quick. Goalies tend to thrive under those situations.

Don't you agree that good defence gives goaltenders the confidence to make those incredible saves?

Again, I'm not going to make an excuse for Price because I think he was terrible this year... and I'm disappointed that he can't perform on his own like some of the greats like Brodeur or Hasek, but to suggest that the last 2 months rests solely on Prices shoulders is ridiculous. I wish it wasn't this way, because he's paid to not need the support, but if Bergy surrounds price with D corps like the ones I described, I'm sure he'd be in the elite discussions again.
They played on teams with either a) trap defense or b) strong defensive systems too. Your argument is invalid.

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05-13-2013, 01:00 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=73254

See 2010-11 thru 2012-13 seasons.

If 67 pts in 78 games with action in the AHL and NHL combined,
If 60 pts in 81 games with action in the NHL,
If 28 pts in 48 games with action in the NHL is your definition of "suck" then IMO, any arguments you say on this board, I'm going to consider invalid.

The guy's a smurf on a smurf-like team, get's on average about 60 points per 82 game season over the past 3 years and yet he "sucks"

LOL
Did you watch the play-offs?
Desharnais sucks when the chips are down. His "strength" for a pro athlete is laughable.

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05-13-2013, 01:17 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
When you have under .900 save % in all but 1 season, yes it does mean something.
Who are you talking about and which seasons are you talking about???

If you're talking about Carey, he's never had a season below .905 save %.

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05-13-2013, 01:40 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
He did not outplay Thomas. Give me a break.
Stats say he did. From the 2010-11 game logs, I have calculated:

Price: 2.11 GAA, .934 Save Percentage.

Thomas: 2.25 GAA, .926 Save Percentage.


My statement was correct. Game 1 where MTL comes into Boston and shuts them out 2-0. Yeah that's a big one.

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05-13-2013, 01:42 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
He let in a softie at a misopportune time. Is it all on him? No. But he shares a lot of the blame for that game 1 loss. Anderson standing on his head, Habs have a 2-1 lead in the 3rd and you let in that garbage? Weak.
So it's 2-2. And the other goals are his fault too? No blame on the lacklustre defensive play by the Habs skaters and everything to do with Price.

Well analyzed sir.

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05-13-2013, 01:43 PM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Did you watch the play-offs?
Desharnais sucks when the chips are down. His "strength" for a pro athlete is laughable.
Yes I did. I will agree that Desharnais shat the bed when it came to actually playing when there was something to play for. He's a smurf. Smurfs don't really play well in the POs. He has to pick up his game in future POs.

To say that he "sucks", that is a big stretch for me. If he's 3 inches taller, he's top 20 in league scoring.

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05-13-2013, 01:57 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And it's people like you who CONTINUOUSLY defend Price as if he has NOTHING to learn anymore that probably creates the "some of you guys" to come in full force and note that Price isn't there yet. Our GM also thinks he's not there yet. Price himself thinks he's not there yet. Somehow, some "other guys" still think he is and plays like a top 5 goalie when himself and his GM don't think so. But somehow, Price haters are the ones with an agenda.....

I would not trade Price.....yet. But next year is THE key year. End result is that it's his 6th year with only a 2nd round to show for. Will it be a good decision if we trade him? Probably not, always defending who you acquire. Will he do better elsewhere with a stronger team? I guess so but we will always be able to say 2 things if he does well elsewhere...."he wouldn't have done it here" and "well he plays under a stronger system and much better D so he has no merit....as some are implying about the other great goalies in the league....Not sure why, for Price, it should be any different unless the Price "lovers" ALSO have an agenda.
Firstly, I never said he has NOTHING to learn anymore. I defend him because the scrutiny from fans and the media about his play is mind-boggling. I know for a fact that he isn't there yet. Is he a top 5 goalie in this league yet? No. Does he play like one sometimes? Yes. Can he become a top 5 goalie in this league? I believe he can. I believe he can steal games for our team, but he can't do it game in and game out. He needs more support on defence. When we had our full lineup, we were playing extremely well. Mostly because we controlled a lot of the possession, but our defense was playing well too. Then when key pieces in our defense go down (Diaz, who was playing extremely well before his concussion, & Emelin, who at one point was I believe leading the NHL in hits for a defenseman) and the people remaining aren't playing like they used to (Gorges, Bouillon), how can you expect the goalie to put up the same numbers, not to mention he was supposedly semi-injured towards the end of the year (which could have been the reason why he didn't paly well down the stretch).

My "agenda" is that the Price "haters" outnumber the Price "lovers" and my voice needs to be loud. This is the big reason why he is saying these comments he is saying and why he probably feels this way. If it was the other way around, I'm sure Price could be thriving or at least could be playing better than most recent seasons. But because there are so many boo birds out there and so many people who want to trade him away and write him off makes me believe that he won't win unless these birds shoo or if he steps up his game himself, goes to another level, and shuts up these boo birds himself. It would be easier if we would just support him consistently. If you want him to play consistently, why don't you support him consistently?

My agenda is to see Price thrive. I believe the next year or two are key. He's entering his prime. It's time to start playing like the elite goaltender I think he will be and can play like.

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05-13-2013, 02:12 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
My agenda is to see Price thrive. I believe the next year or two are key. He's entering his prime. It's time to start playing like the elite goaltender I think he will be and can play like.
And everybody from the supposed Price lovers to the suppose Price haters's agendas are to see the Habs win. Period. Some believes Price will make it possible. Others don't see it. Not sure why it has to be repeated over and over and over again.

Everybody wants a better team in front of him. A better team all-around means just that. A better team hence more chances to win any type of game presented to us. But at one point, we will have to recognize if Price can thrive in this kind of market.

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05-13-2013, 03:20 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And everybody from the supposed Price lovers to the suppose Price haters's agendas are to see the Habs win. Period. Some believes Price will make it possible. Others don't see it. Not sure why it has to be repeated over and over and over again.

Everybody wants a better team in front of him. A better team all-around means just that. A better team hence more chances to win any type of game presented to us. But at one point, we will have to recognize if Price can thrive in this kind of market.
The difference is Price "haters" seem to have an overwhelming amount of criticism of his play, with a good portion without facts to back it up. I said that Price outplayed Tim Thomas in 2010-11, I got a Price "hater" to say "No he didn't. Give me a break." or something along those lines. Meanwhile, I do have criticism for Carey except I can't blindly say that X, Y, and Z were all him to blame where there are other factors to consider. While X, Y, and Z have some of the blame to Price, X, Y, and Z can also be blamed on the defense.

IMO, Price "lovers" are optimistic and realistic fans that see the value in Carey Price in the long haul based on numerous factors. Majority of Price "haters" are pessimistic and unrealistic fans that don't see any value to keeping Carey Price for at least the recent future and if his play improves, for the long haul...

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05-13-2013, 03:23 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Yes I did. I will agree that Desharnais shat the bed when it came to actually playing when there was something to play for. He's a smurf. Smurfs don't really play well in the POs. He has to pick up his game in future POs.

To say that he "sucks", that is a big stretch for me. If he's 3 inches taller, he's top 20 in league scoring.
He could be 6'4 and if he played like he did in the play-offs, he'd still suck.

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05-13-2013, 03:24 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And everybody from the supposed Price lovers to the suppose Price haters's agendas are to see the Habs win. Period. Some believes Price will make it possible. Others don't see it. Not sure why it has to be repeated over and over and over again.

Everybody wants a better team in front of him. A better team all-around means just that. A better team hence more chances to win any type of game presented to us. But at one point, we will have to recognize if Price can thrive in this kind of market.
Isn't the best way to for us to recognize this is to get the best possible team we can and surround Price with it? Doesn't it make sense to get at least one big blueliner to help clear the crease?

If we're going to try to win it 'now' and we're past the rebuild, then it's time to address this correct? Time to get a guy who can and will clear the crease for us? And up front get guys who will just stand in front of the other teams' net so we can score?

I mean seriously, even if you think Price is a guy who's not great but 'good enough' wouldnt a better strategy be to go out and improve the D? Why not do this instead of looking for a new goalie and wasting cycles on that front?

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05-13-2013, 03:28 PM
  #316
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Price still have 3-4 years of development ahead of him... if not more... Chill out.

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05-13-2013, 03:28 PM
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
He could be 6'4 and if he played like he did in the play-offs, he'd still suck.
I didn't dispute this...but I think if he's a bigger player, he's less likely to be pushed around in the POs and would for sure play better.

My point is for his size, the guy played well in the REGULAR SEASON the past 3 years. He, like Price, needs to elevate his game to the next level if he wants to be considered a top 6 guy and an important player on his team, worthy of that contract and more...

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05-13-2013, 03:29 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Isn't the best way to for us to recognize this is to get the best possible team we can and surround Price with it? Doesn't it make sense to get at least one big blueliner to help clear the crease?

If we're going to try to win it 'now' and we're past the rebuild, then it's time to address this correct? Time to get a guy who can and will clear the crease for us? And up front get guys who will just stand in front of the other teams' net so we can score?

I mean seriously, even if you think Price is a guy who's not great but 'good enough' wouldnt a better strategy be to go out and improve the D? Why not do this instead of looking for a new goalie and wasting cycles on that front?
We're not in a win now mode tho, we're still 2-3 years away form that.

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05-13-2013, 03:30 PM
  #319
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Fast forward to 0:55 everyone...

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05-13-2013, 03:34 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Being in arguably the craziest hockey city and playing in probably the most important position in the arguably craziest hockey city, he's earned every penny.

Just because you earn more money doesn't necessarily mean you are the better player (see Scott Gomez), but it also doesn't mean you necessarily don't deserve to be paid more.
So Price has earned every penny because he's a goalie playing in Mtl??? Wow, is that what it has come down to? That's our standards now? If you're a goalie playing in Mtl as #1 then you earned a 40M contract??
Price is making top dollars among goalies in the NHL, he needs to play like one of them. He needs to be better. But hey, don't listen to me, listen to Price as he said so himself.

You're right, getting the most money doesn't mean you're the best. You're Gomez example is just horrible though as he had one of the arguably worse contract of the NHL.

Price is a great young goalie, but he needs to be better. There's nothing wrong with that factual statement.

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05-13-2013, 03:38 PM
  #321
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We're not in a win now mode tho, we're still 2-3 years away form that.
If that's the case, then folks need to chill out.

It's one or the other... Either we're building towards something and we let our players develop. Or we're going for it and we do everything we have to in order to win now.

If we don't improve in certain areas we simply won't win right now. I don't care who the goalie is, you can't win cups without getting at least a little dirty and we don't have that kind of team right now.

Price had an inconsistent year for sure. And he can be better. But if we want to be serious about winning we've got to do some things on the blueline to help him out and we've got to get guys with at least average size who can go to the net.

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05-13-2013, 03:43 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So Price has earned every penny because he's a goalie playing in Mtl??? Wow, is that what it has come down to? That's our standards now? If you're a goalie playing in Mtl as #1 then you earned a 40M contract??
Price is making top dollars among goalies in the NHL, he needs to play like one of them. He needs to be better. But hey, don't listen to me, listen to Price as he said so himself.

You're right, getting the most money doesn't mean you're the best. You're Gomez example is just horrible though as he had one of the arguably worse contract of the NHL.

Price is a great young goalie, but he needs to be better. There's nothing wrong with that factual statement.
Well if MB thinks he's worth 39M over 6 years, then he'll sign him to that contract. The guy gets a ridiculous amount of money not only because he's a great goaltender, but because despite playing in one of the NHL's craziest hockey cities, he performs above average, while not yet even reaching a prime age yet.

Trust me, he's worth every penny and going to be worth even more in the years to come...

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05-13-2013, 03:46 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If that's the case, then folks need to chill out.

It's one or the other... Either we're building towards something and we let our players develop. Or we're going for it and we do everything we have to in order to win now.

If we don't improve in certain areas we simply won't win right now. I don't care who the goalie is, you can't win cups without getting at least a little dirty and we don't have that kind of team right now.

Price had an inconsistent year for sure. And he can be better. But if we want to be serious about winning we've got to do some things on the blueline to help him out and we've got to get guys with at least average size who can go to the net.
Realistically speaking, teh Canadiens will be ready in 3-4 years when Leblanc, Collberg, Bournival, Dumont, THrower, Bozon, Ellis, Beaulieu , Kristo, Holland are all on the team (if they all live up to the expectations). Until then, I wouldn't make any hasty move and it looks like it's teh path Bergevin is following.

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05-13-2013, 03:48 PM
  #324
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Well if MB thinks he's worth 39M over 6 years, then he'll sign him to that contract. The guy gets a ridiculous amount of money not only because he's a great goaltender, but because despite playing in one of the NHL's craziest hockey cities, he performs above average, while not yet even reaching a prime age yet.

Trust me, he's worth every penny and going to be worth even more in the years to come...
Most definitely. People say "Anderson beated Price".

But Anderson is 32 years old, retrospectively, where was Anderson at 25 years old? Where will Price be at 32 years old?

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05-13-2013, 04:17 PM
  #325
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But Anderson is 32 years old, retrospectively, where was Anderson at 25 years old? Where will Price be at 32 years old?
This is not against Price, but against the argument that we need to be patient and he's too young to win next season... He'll be 26. A (large?) majority of goalies that won the Cup in the last 30 years, won their first Cup at that age or younger. This is not only Patrick Roy. Somewhere between a half dozen and a dozen were in their early 20s. Vernon, Barasso, Fuhr, Brodeur, Osgood, Richter, etc... Anderson, like Tim Thomas, Belfour would be the exception not the norm.

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