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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (Part 4)

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Old
05-20-2013, 10:10 PM
  #826
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
This is so sad. This is what your argument has been reduced too.
I just don't see how national hockey league coaches voted him as the best goalie is a bad argument

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05-20-2013, 10:10 PM
  #827
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
This is so sad. This is what your argument has been reduced too.
Yeah. The ONLY thing I have going for me is that everyone with any credibility disagreed with you. Geez... how sad is that? You can add analysts like Gary Galley and others on the NHL network btw who said he was having a Vezina like season.

Price vs Quick, Price has actually been better... You said it yourself, the only difference is the postseason. And there's no way Quick wins a cup with the teams that we've had.

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05-20-2013, 10:12 PM
  #828
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I just don't see how national hockey league coaches voted him as the best goalie is a bad argument
Don't forget the players and analysts as well...

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05-20-2013, 10:15 PM
  #829
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But we can do this for the habs. Because we have watched all the games(I actually missed two.) So why don't we do it ? Why do we have to say X goalie is bad because he has bad stats? Why can't the people arguing in here come and say... Price is actually bad because he's too far in his net, but this is not alarming, as he wasn't playing like that before. Why can't we ?

A) People have no freaking idea what they're talking about.
B) People are actually freaking haters.
C) People are a little bunch of sheep that gets fed crap by the media, and they totally believe it and back that crap up.

I'm pretty sure its the last one, it's always the last one.
But we did it. I know I did. I keep repeating that he's moving way way too much for absolutely nothing. I kept saying that he doesn't use his stick properly has the 5-hole has never been bigger. And when he put himself in the butterfly position, he now has a new position making him much smaller than he actually is. And not only me, but experts have come out to say how almost everytime he moves from post to post, he ends up on his belly where his size doesn't matter anymore. And his glove is still not and will never be one of the best. And pucks went through him way too much. I mean, most people have done it....but then what happens? You have people who'll just say...."well that's not true". To which you then have to go back at stats.

Besides, for every "haters" out there, there are pure lovers. And I'm pretty sure that one is not better than the other. On both ends lack calm, cool and collected thoughts. But I have to say this....most people who "hates" Price, will mostly come out to say that they don't want to see him traded and that he needs to improve. Honestly, this is not that big of a thing to say. At worst, the same people like Kriss E just said and I also think, that the next year is crucial. I woudl personnally even give him the next after that if he's again just average/good, but the people in Montreal won't let him just be that. Reason why it's a big year for him. It is a big year for everybody, for the team, but for him, it "might" be his future in Montreal.

Now, the "lovers" on the other end do go to certain extremes....calling him a top 5 goalie in the NHL PERIOD. Not only last year....this year...or 2 years ago...Top 5 of this league. Period. And not only that but they will go to any reasons why he struggled. You read them and there's always excuses. At one point, they might mention that he would have to improve....but that's probably the final statement after trying to excuse him for the past 250 posts they made on the subject. So as far as having an agenda....like I keep repeating, agendas aren't only for haters. Lovers have also one of their own.

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05-20-2013, 10:16 PM
  #830
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Not saying you're not a knowledgeable poster, but you have to watch more Kings games or pay attention to goalies in general if you think this is true. Completely different styles. Price's is too passive, technical, not enough battle. He'll guess where a shot will go and rely on his positioning and size instead of fighting through traffic, for example. Not good enough, especially in the playoffs and we've all seen that. It's not something he can't work on, but I'm baffled as to why he hasn't improved on that, among other things, already.
Care to explain why has Price been bad ?

In which game was he bad? Just in those playoffs, don't go too far, you'll hurt yourself.
Highlight his bad goals. You'll see one in the first game, the Silfverberg one. So, don't bring up this one. Outside of that... What else ? Can you watch back that 6-1 loss and see how many times he made timely stop the first two period ? Then watch how his team actually stops playing when he gives up a bad goal.


Yeah, I actually watched the games. I didn't just come up to conclusion watching the end game score and his stats.

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05-20-2013, 10:24 PM
  #831
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yeah. The ONLY thing I have going for me is that everyone with any credibility disagreed with you. Geez... how sad is that? You can add analysts like Gary Galley and others on the NHL network btw who said he was having a Vezina like season.

Price vs Quick, Price has actually been better... You said it yourself, the only difference is the postseason. And there's no way Quick wins a cup with the teams that we've had.
Sad, how people can only judge a player based on what they hear and read rather than what they actually see.

Such terrible arguments time and time again. Lets not talk about Quick then. What about Bobrovsky? Dubnyk? Howard? Lehtonen? Holtby? Why were they able to put up better numbers on worse teams?

Maybe they will add a stat that has GM rankings or something. Maybe Price will finally have a top 5 stat.

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05-20-2013, 10:27 PM
  #832
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But we did it. I know I did. I keep repeating that he's moving way way too much for absolutely nothing. I kept saying that he doesn't use his stick properly has the 5-hole has never been bigger. And when he put himself in the butterfly position, he now has a new position making him much smaller than he actually is. And not only me, but experts have come out to say how almost everytime he moves from post to post, he ends up on his belly where his size doesn't matter anymore. And his glove is still not and will never be one of the best. And pucks went through him way too much. I mean, most people have done it....but then what happens? You have people who'll just say...."well that's not true". To which you then have to go back at stats.

Besides, for every "haters" out there, there are pure lovers. And I'm pretty sure that one is not better than the other. On both ends lack calm, cool and collected thoughts. But I have to say this....most people who "hates" Price, will mostly come out to say that they don't want to see him traded and that he needs to improve. Honestly, this is not that big of a thing to say. At worst, the same people like Kriss E just said and I also think, that the next year is crucial. I woudl personnally even give him the next after that if he's again just average/good, but the people in Montreal won't let him just be that. Reason why it's a big year for him. It is a big year for everybody, for the team, but for him, it "might" be his future in Montreal.

Now, the "lovers" on the other end do go to certain extremes....calling him a top 5 goalie in the NHL PERIOD. Not only last year....this year...or 2 years ago...Top 5 of this league. Period. And not only that but they will go to any reasons why he struggled. You read them and there's always excuses. At one point, they might mention that he would have to improve....but that's probably the final statement after trying to excuse him for the past 250 posts they made on the subject. So as far as having an agenda....like I keep repeating, agendas aren't only for haters. Lovers have also one of their own.
Hard to see how he wouldn't have been a top five coming into this season dude. Everybody had him there. He was a lock for Sochi and was ranked very highly. Pretty much everyone would've had him top five coming into this year. Not an agenda dude, just a fact.

Next year, different story. A lot of analysts (and fans) will be watching him closely. He's got something to prove next year if he wants to be considered elite. Also a fact. And he's not a lock for Sochi anymore either. Like I said, rankings are fluid and he'll have to atone for that crash.

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05-20-2013, 10:29 PM
  #833
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Sad, how people can only judge a player based on what they hear and read rather than what they actually see.

Such terrible arguments time and time again. Lets not talk about Quick then. What about Bobrovsky? Dubnyk? Howard? Lehtonen? Holtby? Why were they able to put up better numbers on worse teams?

Maybe they will add a stat that has GM rankings or something. Maybe Price will finally have a top 5 stat.
I am basing it on what I see.

The difference is that I have NHL coaches, players and analysts that agree with me and you've got haburger.

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05-20-2013, 10:31 PM
  #834
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
But we did it. I know I did. I keep repeating that he's moving way way too much for absolutely nothing. I kept saying that he doesn't use his stick properly has the 5-hole has never been bigger. And when he put himself in the butterfly position, he now has a new position making him much smaller than he actually is. And not only me, but experts have come out to say how almost everytime he moves from post to post, he ends up on his belly where his size doesn't matter anymore. And his glove is still not and will never be one of the best. And pucks went through him way too much. I mean, most people have done it....but then what happens? You have people who'll just say...."well that's not true". To which you then have to go back at stats.

Besides, for every "haters" out there, there are pure lovers. And I'm pretty sure that one is not better than the other. On both ends lack calm, cool and collected thoughts. But I have to say this....most people who "hates" Price, will mostly come out to say that they don't want to see him traded and that he needs to improve. Honestly, this is not that big of a thing to say. At worst, the same people like Kriss E just said and I also think, that the next year is crucial. I woudl personnally even give him the next after that if he's again just average/good, but the people in Montreal won't let him just be that. Reason why it's a big year for him. It is a big year for everybody, for the team, but for him, it "might" be his future in Montreal.

Now, the "lovers" on the other end do go to certain extremes....calling him a top 5 goalie in the NHL PERIOD. Not only last year....this year...or 2 years ago...Top 5 of this league. Period. And not only that but they will go to any reasons why he struggled. You read them and there's always excuses. At one point, they might mention that he would have to improve....but that's probably the final statement after trying to excuse him for the past 250 posts they made on the subject. So as far as having an agenda....like I keep repeating, agendas aren't only for haters. Lovers have also one of their own.
For the record, my thought weren't directed at you. But I think you know that.

The sheer fact that people still doubt he can win games with us is what gets me off.
People put so much freaking emphasis on goalies and frankly, there's no sense in doing that.
Why is it impossible that we cannot win with him?
You want 1 thing out of your goalie and thats it. Give your team a chance to stay in the game. To say Price has not done that this year is ridiculous. It's a goalies job. He can't do anything else.
Price is not responsible AT ALL for our loss in the playoffs. Everybody talks about Quick being awesome and all, yet he costed the Kings two games in a row by HF standards.

Could he be better ? Could he improve somewhere ?
Even Crosby needs to improve somewhere.

Price is our best player.
At least he was, before the emergence of P.K. (DO NOT READ DOWNFALL OF PRICE)

/rant over but I guess I'll need to rant again in about 15 hours because the same endless bashing will come over and over again. Totally sick of being a fan of the habs. I'll switch to the Bruins probably, or maybe the Leafs, at least they don't take every damn way to bash every player that suits up for their team.

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05-20-2013, 10:32 PM
  #835
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I just don't see how national hockey league coaches voted him as the best goalie is a bad argument
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Don't forget the players and analysts as well...
Yeah, and they also thought Therrien was the best coach of the East. I'd also believe that are doing like most people, still relying on potential. 'Cause it made no sense whatsoever. Lundqvist and Rask were still the best goalie at that time in the East. And if Anderson would not have been hurt, he would have been there as well. And then you have Reimer and Holtby who also had better seasons but don't have the name that Price does. And fortunately for Price, you also have in the East some aging vets like Miller or Brodeur who are not considered anymore. I believe that Price's name was also there based on the turnaround that the franchise was under this year compared to last year. I would have love to have the details of that vote though....was surely not unanimous.

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05-20-2013, 10:34 PM
  #836
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Sad, how people can only judge a player based on what they hear and read rather than what they actually see.

Such terrible arguments time and time again. Lets not talk about Quick then. What about Bobrovsky? Dubnyk? Howard? Lehtonen? Holtby? Why were they able to put up better numbers on worse teams?

Maybe they will add a stat that has GM rankings or something. Maybe Price will finally have a top 5 stat.
I'm pretty sure it is what you do.

Since when is Detroit, Colombus, Washington and Dallas clear cut worse teams than Montreal?

Now tell me something else... Why does it matter what Lehtonen has done ? Why does it matter what Holtby has done ? ....All those G you have mentioned would be crucified here already.

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05-20-2013, 10:36 PM
  #837
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I am basing it on what I see.

The difference is that I have NHL coaches, players and analysts that agree with me and you've got haburger.
If we're talking about actual talent. Yes, he's up there. But unlike you, I judge a goalie based on results. Price has not delivered where it has counted. You and others have blamed everyone but the goalie himself. He has lived off of hype/potential for years. If he doesn't improve...he will be discussed in the same manner that Fleury is now.

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05-20-2013, 10:36 PM
  #838
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Yeah, and they also thought Therrien was the best coach of the East. I'd also believe that are doing like most people, still relying on potential. 'Cause it made no sense whatsoever. Lundqvist and Rask were still the best goalie at that time in the East. And if Anderson would not have been hurt, he would have been there as well. And then you have Reimer and Holtby who also had better seasons but don't have the name that Price does. And fortunately for Price, you also have in the East some aging vets like Miller or Brodeur who are not considered anymore. I believe that Price's name was also there based on the turnaround that the franchise was under this year compared to last year. I would have love to have the details of that vote though....was surely not unanimous.
Now care to explain how... If you didnt watch the games, as stated higher. You can say they had a better season?

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05-20-2013, 10:38 PM
  #839
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If we're talking about actual talent. Yes, he's up there. But unlike you, I judge a goalie based on results. Price has not delivered where it has counted. You and others have blamed everyone but the goalie himself.
What have you done for me lately is the main factor in your argument.
No.
What stats have you posted lately is the argument.

You know why we don't blame the goalie ?

Because the goalie is the least of our worries.

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05-20-2013, 10:40 PM
  #840
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Yeah, and they also thought Therrien was the best coach of the East. I'd also believe that are doing like most people, still relying on potential. 'Cause it made no sense whatsoever. Lundqvist and Rask were still the best goalie at that time in the East. And if Anderson would not have been hurt, he would have been there as well. And then you have Reimer and Holtby who also had better seasons but don't have the name that Price does. And fortunately for Price, you also have in the East some aging vets like Miller or Brodeur who are not considered anymore. I believe that Price's name was also there based on the turnaround that the franchise was under this year compared to last year. I would have love to have the details of that vote though....was surely not unanimous.
I disagreed with much of what Therrien did. And despite my initial thoughts, I think he did a great job. Don't you? I mean seriously man how can you fault a Division title with a team that was 15th the season before? You really think he didn't deserve some recognition? I was a little surprised he wasn't nominated for the J.Adams to be honest.

And there's no way it was unanimous. And like I said, I wouldn't have voted for him as a Vezina guy either. Saying he sucked though? No.

I guess it doesn't really matter though because that season end DID happen. We can't pretend that it didn't. All of this is pretty semantical now because it will be a new season next year. What scares me is that some folks here don't even recognize a good goalie when they see one.

And like I said, our D also scares me and that's with Markov being healthy. If he goes down (which could easily happen) we're in trouble again.

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05-20-2013, 10:42 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
If we're talking about actual talent. Yes, he's up there. But unlike you, I judge a goalie based on results. Price has not delivered where it has counted. You and others have blamed everyone but the goalie himself. He has lived off of hype/potential for years. If he doesn't improve...he will be discussed in the same manner that Fleury is now.
Dude... the numbers are there. I've shown them to you. He's been a strong goalie for a while now and even since coming into the league has been good. The analysts, the players, the coaches... they ALL disagree with you. Haburger comes in and laughs (just like you did) about the comparisons to Quick. And yet Price has mostly been better than he has. Then when its shown to him all of a sudden, it's no longer about numbers its about the cup that Quick won...

You are entitled to your own opinion and can stick to your guns. I'll stick to mine. Difference is that mine are loaded.


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05-20-2013, 10:42 PM
  #842
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I disagreed with much of what Therrien did. And despite my initial thoughts, I think he did a great job. Don't you? I mean seriously man how can you fault a Division title with a team that was 15th the season before? You really think he didn't deserve some recognition? I was a little surprised he wasn't nominated for the J.Adams to be honest.

And there's no way it was unanimous. And like I said, I wouldn't have voted for him as a Vezina guy either. Saying he sucked though? No.

I guess it doesn't really matter though because that season end DID happen. We can't pretend that it didn't. All of this is pretty semantical now because it will be a new season next year. What scares me is that some folks here don't even recognize a good goalie when they see one.

And like I said, our D also scares me and that's with Markov being healthy. If he goes down (which could easily happen) we're in trouble again.
Can we sticky this post ?

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05-20-2013, 10:43 PM
  #843
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Hard to see how he wouldn't have been a top five coming into this season dude. Everybody had him there. He was a lock for Sochi and was ranked very highly. Pretty much everyone would've had him top five coming into this year. Not an agenda dude, just a fact.

Next year, different story. A lot of analysts (and fans) will be watching him closely. He's got something to prove next year if he wants to be considered elite. Also a fact. And he's not a lock for Sochi anymore either. Like I said, rankings are fluid and he'll have to atone for that crash.
Hard to see? Well whether it was his fault, partially his fault or not his fault at all, we still were coming from dead last in the conference. How can you can still have a goalie that is at that spot and put him top 5 is beyond me. Which, again, makes me believe that he's solely there based on potential and some results. His past results, his AHL Cup does count for something. What he did there was nothing short but spectacular and amazing. And people remember that and expect to see it at the NHL level. But again, whether it's his fault or not, results needs to come in. And 1 2nd round in the playoffs cannot qualify you as a top 5 goalie. So how do they do it? How can they move pass the actual results? It's by going with the potential. But one day, potential will need to make room to actual results. It did a little in some regular seasons. It didn't in some others. And he doesn't have the playoffs either. Aside from 1 very good series against Boston. But 1 series is NOT 1 great PLAYOFFS. Just like 1 good OT was NOT about Price INCREDIBLE OT AND SHOOTOUT in the Worlds. Just that for me is the example of the aura around Price. We kept hearing how incredible he was in the shootout at the Worlds. He gave 4 goals out of shots. So the "legend" has surpassed him I believe. Time to change gear now and become one of the game changer of this team.

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05-20-2013, 10:44 PM
  #844
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Hard to see? Well whether it was his fault, partially his fault or not his fault at all, we still were coming from dead last in the conference. How can you can still have a goalie that is at that spot and put him top 5 is beyond me. Which, again, makes me believe that he's solely there based on potential and some results. His past results, his AHL Cup does count for something. What he did there was nothing short but spectacular and amazing. And people remember that and expect to see it at the NHL level. But again, whether it's his fault or not, results needs to come in. And 1 2nd round in the playoffs cannot qualify you as a top 5 goalie. So how do they do it? How can they move pass the actual results? It's by going with the potential. But one day, potential will need to make room to actual results. It did a little in some regular seasons. It didn't in some others. And he doesn't have the playoffs either. Aside from 1 very good series against Boston. But 1 series is NOT 1 great PLAYOFFS. Just like 1 good OT was NOT about Price INCREDIBLE OT AND SHOOTOUT in the Worlds. Just that for me is the example of the aura around Price. We kept hearing how incredible he was in the shootout at the Worlds. He gave 4 goals out of shots. So the "legend" has surpassed him I believe. Time to change gear now and become one of the game changer of this team.
Luongo regularly missed the playoffs with Florida and was still considered one of the best goalies in the game.

For God's sake man our D was so bad we ADDED Thomas freaking Kaberle to try to make our D better. And you KNOW this. You are smart enough to realize this. Please, let's not go down this path because we both know that Quick, Lundqvist or anyone else wouldn't have won squat with that team.

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05-20-2013, 10:47 PM
  #845
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Hard to see? Well whether it was his fault, partially his fault or not his fault at all, we still were coming from dead last in the conference. How can you can still have a goalie that is at that spot and put him top 5 is beyond me. Which, again, makes me believe that he's solely there based on potential and some results. His past results, his AHL Cup does count for something. What he did there was nothing short but spectacular and amazing. And people remember that and expect to see it at the NHL level. But again, whether it's his fault or not, results needs to come in. And 1 2nd round in the playoffs cannot qualify you as a top 5 goalie. So how do they do it? How can they move pass the actual results? It's by going with the potential. But one day, potential will need to make room to actual results. It did a little in some regular seasons. It didn't in some others. And he doesn't have the playoffs either. Aside from 1 very good series against Boston. But 1 series is NOT 1 great PLAYOFFS. Just like 1 good OT was NOT about Price INCREDIBLE OT AND SHOOTOUT in the Worlds. Just that for me is the example of the aura around Price. We kept hearing how incredible he was in the shootout at the Worlds. He gave 4 goals out of shots. So the "legend" has surpassed him I believe. Time to change gear now and become one of the game changer of this team.
So Rinne is not top 5 anymore ?

How can someone think he's not an actual game changer ? How can someone label the last series he had as bad ?

There's wanting result... And wanting result out of a team that will not bring results.

Thornton never made it to the SCF finals... Does that make him someone you should part with? Should he get all the blame ?

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05-20-2013, 10:51 PM
  #846
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I disagreed with much of what Therrien did. And despite my initial thoughts, I think he did a great job. Don't you? I mean seriously man how can you fault a Division title with a team that was 15th the season before? You really think he didn't deserve some recognition? I was a little surprised he wasn't nominated for the J.Adams to be honest.

And there's no way it was unanimous. And like I said, I wouldn't have voted for him as a Vezina guy either. Saying he sucked though? No.

I guess it doesn't really matter though because that season end DID happen. We can't pretend that it didn't. All of this is pretty semantical now because it will be a new season next year. What scares me is that some folks here don't even recognize a good goalie when they see one.

And like I said, our D also scares me and that's with Markov being healthy. If he goes down (which could easily happen) we're in trouble again.
Thing is, some are using the "but he was voted best goalie" as a proof that he definately is. There is a difference between thinking that Therrien did a fine job...and thinking that Therrien did THE BEST job. Just like Price for me.

So nobody is faulting anybody based on how we rebounded. Though, I did hear tons of time that we never as bad as our 15th place indicated. And in the "what if" game, Boston wins their last game, and we finish 4th. So the gap might not have been that dramatic. But Therrien did a good job, no question. But it was never the best. People should stop going solely with ranks, and start looking at points. Yes, we finish 1st in our division....2nd in our conference....that would be a big 7 points out of the 4th team in our division. That's 4 wins. And a big 8 points before the 8th place team. In a parity world, number of points should be the key to look at....not the place you finished in...But we did much better than anticipated. We did good. Deserved to be where we were. Everybody on this team mostly deserved to be saluted for a good season. We have to be so much better than that from now on though with the competition ahead. Boston will not slow down. Toronto and Ottawa might actually improve. Detroit is coming in etc...

Go with points and maybe we'll realize that if things don't go accordingly and if we can't improve too much...is it too far fetched to think that we might not make the playoffs next year?

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05-20-2013, 11:01 PM
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Thing is, some are using the "but he was voted best goalie" as a proof that he definately is. There is a difference between thinking that Therrien did a fine job...and thinking that Therrien did THE BEST job. Just like Price for me.
And like I told you before, we weren't talking about him for Vezina. We were talking about his season.

As for Therrien, I'd have no problem if he won the J.Adams. None. My pick would be Paul Maclean who (despite being an ass in the postseason) managed to get the Sens into the postseason despite a billion injuries.
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So nobody is faulting anybody based on how we rebounded. Though, I did hear tons of time that we never as bad as our 15th place indicated. And in the "what if" game, Boston wins their last game, and we finish 4th. So the gap might not have been that dramatic. But Therrien did a good job, no question. But it was never the best. People should stop going solely with ranks, and start looking at points. Yes, we finish 1st in our division....2nd in our conference....that would be a big 7 points out of the 4th team in our division. That's 4 wins. And a big 8 points before the 8th place team. In a parity world, number of points should be the key to look at....not the place you finished in...But we did much better than anticipated. We did good. Deserved to be where we were. Everybody on this team mostly deserved to be saluted for a good season. We have to be so much better than that from now on though with the competition ahead. Boston will not slow down. Toronto and Ottawa might actually improve. Detroit is coming in etc...
And again, I'd say look at the D we had.
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Go with points and maybe we'll realize that if things don't go accordingly and if we can't improve too much...is it too far fetched to think that we might not make the playoffs next year?
No it's not. Not with the D we have.

Then again it could be good. Tinordi, Beaulieu... both wildcards. They'll probably be in the lineup. It's a real crapshoot as to what happens next year. Markov? Who the hell knows? That's why I really hope that we add a strong defensive veteran blueliner because we're going to need one. Subban is the only guy I KNOW is going to be good. Gorges I used to have in that category but I wasn't happy with him this season.

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05-20-2013, 11:09 PM
  #848
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Hey just realized the Habs didn't win the division because the TSN experts picked them to finish 12th.

6 month old opinion of guys on TV > reality.

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05-20-2013, 11:20 PM
  #849
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Thing is, some are using the "but he was voted best goalie" as a proof that he definately is. There is a difference between thinking that Therrien did a fine job...and thinking that Therrien did THE BEST job. Just like Price for me.
And furthermore, Fedorov would be the second best player in NHL history, because the best player in NHL history said so. Etc, etc. Insert additional examples from Scotty Bowman here. The timing of what Lafleur's Guy is leaning on makes it moot anyhow. If the same conversation was held today instead of mid-season, it would be "He was among the best, except for the half season that he wasn't..."

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Hey just realized the Habs didn't win the division because the TSN experts picked them to finish 12th.
LOL. Checkmate on that line of arguing.

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05-20-2013, 11:25 PM
  #850
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And furthermore, Fedorov would be the second best player in NHL history, because the best player in NHL history said so. Etc, etc. Insert additional examples from Scotty Bowman here. The timing of what Lafleur's Guy is leaning on makes it moot anyhow. If the same conversation was held today instead of mid-season, it would be "He was among the best, except for the half season that he wasn't..."



LOL. Checkmate on that line of arguing.
See post 840 in this thread...

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