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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

World Cup of Hockey Returning in 2016.

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Old
05-14-2013, 12:56 PM
  #251
cutchemist42
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Again, why do you keep referencing the 2004 tourney like it's format is already decided for 2016? That is ridiculously reactionary.
You only have to look at the reasons why the NHL wants to hold the World Cup to realize why nothing will likely change with their format of the tourney. It's not reactionary for me to understand the NHL and know they never change drastically or progressively.

The NHL has had decades to show me they had vision with this thing. They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt at this moment.

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05-14-2013, 12:59 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by starttomelt View Post
umm, no?

Let's have a look at the referees of the last five UEFA Champions League finals:

Pedro Proença (Portugal)
Viktor Kassai (Hungary)
Howard Webb (England)
Massimo Busacca (Switzerland)
Ľuboš Micheľ (Slovakia)

Let's have a look at the 2012 IFFHS' Worlds Best Referee List:

1. Pedro Proenca Oliveira (POR) 174
2. Cuneyt Cakir (TUR) 73
3. Howard Webb (ENG) 72
4. Viktor Kassai (HUN) 50
5. Wolfgang Stark (GER) 40
6. Ravshan Irmatov (UZB) 35
7. Damir Skomina (SVN) 26
8. Wilmar Roldan (COL) 20
9. Felix Brych (GER) 15
10. Stephane Lannoy (FRA) 13
Are you going to argue that league's don't pick there best referees to do there top games, because they do. It would asinine to do otherwise. The best football referees are in the NFL, the best basketball officials referee in the NBA, etc. Some random ratings of referees means nothing. I think if UEFA released there own rankings you would find that they have there top referees doing those matches (what possible reason would they not).

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05-14-2013, 12:59 PM
  #253
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You don't the NHL has long term vision to grow hockey when that is the reason why they expanded to US sunbelt 20 years ago? Take off your blinders man.

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05-14-2013, 01:01 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
You guys are still glossing the one main point that is shared by international tourneys, open qualification. Show me the article that says the NHL as a whole distributes the amount of revenue to IOCs and i might appreciate what the NHL does for youth grassroot sports more.

With only strategically invited countries, this tourney has always been a marketing gimmick. It baseball only 2 WBCs to involve 24 teams, and the next one is still expanding. MLB and NPB required the money received to spent on grassroots only. Instead we have only had 8 teams ever in the modern World Cup.....
You are the only who for some reason thinks where the money goes is at all relevant to casual fans or even hardcore fans. It isn't. People watch it to be entertained, not as a charitable endeavour.

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05-14-2013, 01:01 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by wolf13 View Post
Don't hold the IOC out as some morally responsible group. They aren't. The stories of IOC bribes and over corruption are well known.
You're living in the past. That was during Samaranch's era. Rogge's done his best to make all IOC operation as transparent as possible. Please, if you still think IOC revenue goes to bosses pockets, it only takes a few seconds to google the actual info.


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05-14-2013, 01:05 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
You only have to look at the reasons why the NHL wants to hold the World Cup to realize why nothing will likely change with their format of the tourney. It's not reactionary for me to understand the NHL and know they never change drastically or progressively.

The NHL has had decades to show me they had vision with this thing. They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt at this moment.
They don't have to show you anything. From your posts its pretty obvious you are not their target audience. They are a business. They don't answer to you. They answer to the 30 owners, their sponsors, and their broadcasting partners. Their goal like their partners goal is to make money. The more money the tournament makes the better.

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05-14-2013, 01:12 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Your living in the past. That was during Samaranch's era. Rogge's done his best to make all IOC operation as transparent as possible. Please, if you still think IOC revenue goes to bosses pockets, it only takes a few seconds to google the actual info.
Just because the IOC says they changed doesn't mean they have. Google IOC and bribes and look at all the articles. For an instance an article on a man known as "The Bagman", with a history of bribes in sports, filmed hanging around with IOC members yet again. I wonder why? That would be the 2016 Olympics in Rio. So much for how they've changed.

http://www.transparencyinsport.org/B...ay_bribes.html

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05-14-2013, 01:19 PM
  #258
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I think this is kind of useless. We already have a 4 year tourney and an annual one. Why on earth would we need a third? This is going overboard.

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05-14-2013, 01:20 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Senatus Praetor View Post
I think this is kind of useless. We already have a 4 year tourney and an annual one. Why on earth would we need a third? This is going overboard.
From what I hear, there is a chance that this will be the last Olympics with NHL players.

The world champs is already missing 60% of the best NHL players.

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05-14-2013, 01:30 PM
  #260
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From what I hear, there is a chance that this will be the last Olympics with NHL players.

The world champs is already missing 60% of the best NHL players.
Hmmm... This makes sense then I guess. There's something about the Olympics though. This World Cup has no history...

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05-14-2013, 01:30 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
You guys are still glossing the one main point that is shared by international tourneys, open qualification. Show me the article that says the NHL as a whole distributes the amount of revenue to IOCs and i might appreciate what the NHL does for youth grassroot sports more.
I'd be interested to see who distributes more money to minor hockey, the NHL through its relationship with Hockey USA, the CHL and the PTA it is working on for Europe or the IIHF. It might be the IIHF but its not like the NHL gives nothing.

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05-14-2013, 01:32 PM
  #262
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Why would the partner European leagues? The average fan could not care less if they partnered with European leagues? There is zero incentive for them to do that.
At the last two Olympics the only countries with rosters made up entirely of NHL players was Canada and the US. Realistically the only 4 countries that could build their best roster or something close to it using nothing but NHL players are Canada, US, Sweden and the Czech Rep. If the NHL wants to have a best on best tournament and doesn't want to limit it to 4 teams they are going to need the cooperation of other national federations, leagues and clubs.

Along with the above... If the NHL wants to become a de facto world governing body of the sport, and I don't think it is crazy to say that by organizing international tournaments they are creeping into that territory, then I think it would be nice to see the NHL organize the event so that it benefits more than just themselves (I joke that the last one was held for the righteous cause of building the lockout war chest, but is it really that far from the truth?). Some people may think that opinion is niave and don't agree with it, and that's perfectly fine, but I don't think think it's a ridiculous view point either. From a total NHL centric position in the long run doesn't the league benefit from hockey being healthy in as many different places as possible? Having a big international event that is respected by all involved in the sport and benefits all involved in sport is one way to help accomplish that.


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05-14-2013, 01:34 PM
  #263
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You are the only who for some reason thinks where the money goes is at all relevant to casual fans or even hardcore fans. It isn't. People watch it to be entertained, not as a charitable endeavour.
Yes, and when compared to the Olympic tourney since none of us are stakeholders in the NHL, the Olympic tourney still provides more entertainment anyway. The secondary issue of how hockey development growth is affected is just another way to decide between the two.

Olympics: 12 teams competing, 20 teams in qualification tourney, more games played, at a better time of the year, open qualification process, wider coverage (this isn't even debateable, this tourney will get lost in August in the world)

World Cup: only 8 teams, no qualification, less games played, NHL/North American biased, less coverage

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05-14-2013, 01:38 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
You're living in the past. That was during Samaranch's era. Rogge's done his best to make all IOC operation as transparent as possible. Please, if you still think IOC revenue goes to bosses pockets, it only takes a few seconds to google the actual info.
Wow, I just found out that the Hells Angels are not a criminal organization, it says so on their website.

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05-14-2013, 01:39 PM
  #265
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Hmm, instead of World cup of Hockey, I would do some dramatic changes in current form of World Championships.

I kinda like the FIFA football format. Every second year there is a major tournament.

Change it to every second year (odd years), perhaps change timing to early February. This way it still wouldn't coincide with the Olympics. And I also wish NHL would perhaps shorten it's season 1-2 weeks on these WC-years. >80 game regular season is way too long anyway if you ask me..

These things would only unite the hockey world more than right now IIHF tournaments indeed are only popular in Europe. I think this is damaging this sport greatly and it's preventing it's true potential for growth. Too bad this is unlikely ever to happen, because both the NHL owners and IIHF bosses are way too greedy...

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05-14-2013, 01:42 PM
  #266
cutchemist42
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I'd be interested to see who distributes more money to minor hockey, the NHL through its relationship with Hockey USA, the CHL and the PTA it is working on for Europe or the IIHF. It might be the IIHF but its not like the NHL gives nothing.
I've only been referring to the international standard that tournaments held for NTs redistribute the profits/revenues for the benefit of the sport.

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05-14-2013, 01:44 PM
  #267
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At atleast the last two Olympics the only countries with rosters made up entirely of NHL players was Canada and the US. Realistically the only 4 countries that could build their best roster or something close to it using nothing but NHL players are Canada, US, Sweden and the Czech Rep. If the NHL wants to have a best on best tournament and doesn't want to limit it to 4 teams they are going to need the cooperation of other national federations, leagues and clubs.

Along with the above... If the NHL wants to become a de facto world governing body of the sport, and I don't think it is crazy to say that by organizing international tournaments they are creeping into that territory, then I think it would be nice to see the NHL organize the event so that it benefits more than just themselves (I joke that the last one was held for the righteous cause of building the lockout war chest, but is it really that far from the truth?). Some people may think that opinion is niave and don't agree with it, and that's perfectly fine, but I don't think think it's a ridiculous view point either. From a total NHL centric position in the long run doesn't the league benefit from hockey being healthy in as many different places as possible? Having a big international event that is respected by all involved in the sport and benefits all involved in sport is one way to help accomplish that.
At least in the last two WCups the NHL organized games to be played in Europe. They probably could have earned more money holding them in Canada. I was at a great Slovakia - Russia game in Toronto at the last WCup which was a sell out and very entertaining. The fact is the NHL actually made more of an effort to reach out to Europe with the WCup than the IIHF has with the WC to NA so I don't really buy that argument.

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05-14-2013, 01:50 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
I've only been referring to the international standard that tournaments held for NTs redistribute the profits/revenues for the benefit of the sport.
Why does it matter if the money the NHL distributes comes from WCup revenues or other sources? I don't get the difference.

Also there are a number of tournaments that are invitational. For example the main rugby tournament in Europe (6 Nations) is invitational and I don't think people really mind. It all depends on whether there are any obvious big gaps in ability between nations. Qualifying might be important to you but I don't think it is a big deal in this context.

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05-14-2013, 01:50 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
Yes, and when compared to the Olympic tourney since none of us are stakeholders in the NHL, the Olympic tourney still provides more entertainment anyway. The secondary issue of how hockey development growth is affected is just another way to decide between the two.

Olympics: 12 teams competing, 20 teams in qualification tourney, more games played, at a better time of the year, open qualification process, wider coverage (this isn't even debateable, this tourney will get lost in August in the world)

World Cup: only 8 teams, no qualification, less games played, NHL/North American biased, less coverage
I agree with this. A hockey tournament in August is just stupid. I will withhold my judgement until more information is released but as it stands now, I don't like this at all.

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05-14-2013, 01:52 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
At least in the last two WCups the NHL organized games to be played in Europe. They probably could have earned more money holding them in Canada. I was at a great Slovakia - Russia game in Toronto at the last WCup which was a sell out and very entertaining. The fact is the NHL actually made more of an effort to reach out to Europe with the WCup than the IIHF has with the WC to NA so I don't really buy that argument.
Hockey Cnada has already agree to not big on the tourney until 2020 in exchange for getting to host the WJHC more often. I thought this was common knowledge by now?

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05-14-2013, 01:54 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
At least in the last two WCups the NHL organized games to be played in Europe. They probably could have earned more money holding them in Canada. I was at a great Slovakia - Russia game in Toronto at the last WCup which was a sell out and very entertaining. The fact is the NHL actually made more of an effort to reach out to Europe with the WCup than the IIHF has with the WC to NA so I don't really buy that argument.
So what was that tournament held in Halifax and Quebec in 2008? To be honest I am not sure how bringing up issues that were pretty much resolved 30+ years ago is constructive. I am thinking most of the people who were involved iwith the NHL, IIHF and hockey in Canada when there were serious rifts between the parties have since one way or the other moved on.

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05-14-2013, 01:57 PM
  #272
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Why does it matter if the money the NHL distributes comes from WCup revenues or other sources? I don't get the difference.

Also there are a number of tournaments that are invitational. For example the main rugby tournament in Europe (6 Nations) is invitational and I don't think people really mind. It all depends on whether there are any obvious big gaps in ability between nations. Qualifying might be important to you but I don't think it is a big deal in this context.
Name a significant World tourney that was limited to 8 teams when 12-14 would have been possible, that was invite only. I'd love to know one.

Also name one tourney where one professional league kept the profits and revenues. No one runs a legit tourney like this...........

Quick, someone tell FIFA that invite only World Cup is the way to go! They've been doing it wrong for decades!

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05-14-2013, 01:59 PM
  #273
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I mean, put aside the money issues,since we are all watching as fans since we're not stakeholders.

One person please tell me why the World Cup is better for fans then the Olympic tourney?

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05-14-2013, 02:00 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Why does it matter if the money the NHL distributes comes from WCup revenues or other sources? I don't get the difference.

Also there are a number of tournaments that are invitational. For example the main rugby tournament in Europe (6 Nations) is invitational and I don't think people really mind. It all depends on whether there are any obvious big gaps in ability between nations. Qualifying might be important to you but I don't think it is a big deal in this context.
Ya, I don't get this whole "qualification" argument either, just nonsense from non-hockey fans if you ask me. The World Cup of Hockey is not a legitimate tournament because only the Top 8 teams as ranked by the IIHF get to participate. How unfair not giving Italy, Austria and Liechtenstein (if they have a hockey team) a chance to qualify.

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05-14-2013, 02:06 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
Hockey Cnada has already agree to not big on the tourney until 2020 in exchange for getting to host the WJHC more often. I thought this was common knowledge by now?
To be honest I think that is kind of a cooked explaination since Canada wasn't interested in hosting the WC anyway and obviously the IIHF wanted some of the big profits from holding the WJC in Canada. Regardsless, what about the USA then?

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