HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

World Cup of Hockey Returning in 2016.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-03-2013, 05:07 AM
  #426
EbencoyE
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 1,913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
So you are saying that a competition between 16 countries which all happen to be in Europe is not an "international competition"?
What I mean by international is world-wide. the Euro is a regional competition not a world-wide competition

EbencoyE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 05:10 AM
  #427
EbencoyE
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 1,913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
How? There are no basketball leagues being played at this time. All the players are available.
Available yes, but they don't all play. Therefore not best-on-best.

I'm not sure about the southern hemisphere leagues either, they might be in season at that time as it is during their winter.

EbencoyE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 05:21 AM
  #428
EbencoyE
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 1,913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
It's pretty disingenious to ignore that international soccer is being played every year at the highest level while trying to compare it to ice hockey.
But it's not. WC qualifiers, regional competitions, and the Olympics (only an U-23 tournament with some exceptions) are all frequently played without top players.

The Euro is the highest international football you'll find next to the World Cup, but that is just a regional competition. And as I said, I would have no problem with the NHL having a regional competition such as a North American Championship (seeing as how they are a NORTH AMERICAN league and not a world-wide league) between the USA and Canada. But a World Cup? Pointless. 1 premiere event every 4 years (Olympics) with an annual secondary event is the perfect model, nothing needs changing.

EbencoyE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 06:04 AM
  #429
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,143
vCash: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
But a World Cup? Pointless. 1 premiere event every 4 years (Olympics) with an annual secondary event is the perfect model, nothing needs changing.
I would gladly dump two WHC for one World Cup. Hopefully the latter will lead to even less NHL players in the WHC and they disband it. Either way, you and the IIHF may think it's pointless, but it's not your interests that means anything here, nor is it in your power, it's what the NHL think is best for them and they might not care for the wellfare of the WHC. Ehh what do i care if the annual thing remains or not, let them play with KHL players only. That might actually be pretty nice for the european hockey scene as the KHL grows stronger, that we get to see players based in Europe battle it out each year.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 09-03-2013 at 06:10 AM.
Darth Yoda is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 08:41 AM
  #430
Jussi
No strings on me
 
Jussi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The lunatic fridge
Country: Finland
Posts: 49,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I would gladly dump two WHC for one World Cup. Hopefully the latter will lead to even less NHL players in the WHC and they disband it. Either way, you and the IIHF may think it's pointless, but it's not your interests that means anything here, nor is it in your power, it's what the NHL think is best for them and they might not care for the wellfare of the WHC. Ehh what do i care if the annual thing remains or not, let them play with KHL players only. That might actually be pretty nice for the european hockey scene as the KHL grows stronger, that we get to see players based in Europe battle it out each year.
That would be the end of IIHF and the end of international hockey development (which IIHF is directly helping).

Jussi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 08:50 AM
  #431
Erikfromfin
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,752
vCash: 500
you need all 3 to promote hockey. the question is do u forever want to standstill the hockey or develope it into world sport? do we still want to see 100 years from now finland fight sweden, russia fight canada etc or do we want little children in china someday say hey i want to fight for ice hockey olympic gold! If in 10, 20, 50 or 100 years time we want to see Indian, Chinese, Australian or even English teams at top of ice hockey international tournaments such as world championships are key. i think canadians are afraid in this matter because they dont want to international ice hockey developing and advancing they just want to hold the few teams near at the top and dictate theyre own rules small ice and etc. No child in algeria is gonna wake up tomorrow and say my dream is to win stanley cup, but if they see these countries play in olympics it just might boost them and say i want to win olympic gold in this sport. it might take 100 years but u need to keep the sport worldwide and not narrow few country sport. that way hockey has no creditability just like rugby is only top in few countries. Widen the horizons and look for the future, not sidney crosbys personal glory in every 4 years at olympics/world cup. i think this could be post of the year.

Erikfromfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 09:09 AM
  #432
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erikfromfin View Post
you need all 3 to promote hockey. the question is do u forever want to standstill the hockey or develope it into world sport?
A man can dream, but the truth is that hockey will never develop into a worldwide sport in the same way, say, soccer is, no matter what the IIHF does or doesn't do. Yes, there is still room for growth in Europe and Far East, but you can wait 200 years or more and no child in Algeria will still wake up and say they dreamed about hockey gold - save for major climate change.

The thing is, there are two things that stop hockey being popular everywhere. First one is that it's a winter sport, and therefore all dependent on climate. Yes, with rinks and artificial ice you can play it wherever, but no one's going to build those rinks without existing culture for the sport. And that does not develop without some natural ice.

The second one is that hockey is a so-called welfare sport, which limits its expansion to the more developed countries. Even if you have the culture and environment for it, playing hockey is still very expensive. Even the bare minimum, meaning a good pair of skates and a stick, can cost more than what an average man makes a month. And if you wish to become a pro, you can expect to dole out a ton more. Compare soccer, where the starter kit consists of a ball and a flat piece of land - and never really requires anything more.

But yeah, IIHF and WHCs are still very necessary because there still are places on this Earth where hockey can develop. But I recommend keeping your arguments a little more grounded, lest you wish to avoid becoming a laughing stock.

FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 09:43 AM
  #433
Erikfromfin
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,752
vCash: 500
its been a while like 8 years or so when china national team played against finland and the match was broadcast on china main tv and there was 100 million people watching it in China. there is so much potential around the world for hockey to grow but by limiting the chances for those nations to even compete at highest level wont do no good. wait till the first hockey "yao ming" comes from china and the nation will explode to hockey frenzy. whos to say in 100 years african continent will even be poor. china and india economy are biggest raisers in world and in the emirates they can create snow in middle of desert. i would rather keep doors open and see these nations compete on international stage than locking it all up to benefit 6 countries. u might call me laughing stock but so was darwin, galileo and tesla when they had visions for future. Summa summarun Having World wide international tournaments is better than focusing all hockey on stanley cup.

Erikfromfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 09:54 AM
  #434
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erikfromfin View Post
its been a while like 8 years or so when china national team played against finland and the match was broadcast on china main tv and there was 100 million people watching it in China. there is so much potential around the world for hockey to grow but by limiting the chances for those nations to even compete at highest level wont do no good. wait till the first hockey "yao ming" comes from china and the nation will explode to hockey frenzy. whos to say in 100 years african continent will even be poor. china and india economy are biggest raisers in world and in the emirates they can create snow in middle of desert.
Thanks for parroting the points I actually agreed you with, like mentioning Far East. China, Japan, Korea and other countries of the region are actually rather good areas for hockey growth if the IIHF plays its cards right.

But keep Africa out of it. Their wealth may grow, and it would be good if it did, but still... no natural ice, no hockey. The fact that some Sheiks can build an indoor skiing centre as a gimmick for tourists is still a far cry from seeing Middle Eastern kids chase a puck on skates.

Also, neither Darwin, Galileo nor Tesla ever had any "visions of future". What they did was state out some ageless facts about natural sciences, as applicable back then as they are now. In fact, if you wish to state similar facts about the state of hockey, my "no cold = no hockey" is far closer to the mark. You can't predict human behavior in the same way you can predict the behavior of genes or natural particles.

FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 09:55 AM
  #435
Erikfromfin
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,752
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Thanks for parroting the points I actually agreed you with, like mentioning Far East. China, Japan, Korea and other such places are actually rather good areas for hockey growth if the IIHF plays its cards right.

But keep Africa out of it. Their wealth may grow, and it would be good if it did, but still... no natural ice, no hockey. The fact that some Sheiks can build an indoor skiing centre as a gimmick for tourists is still a far cry from seeing Middle Eastern kids chase a puck on skates.

Also, neither Darwin, Galileo nor Tesla ever had any "visions of future". What they did was state out some ageless facts about natural sciences, as applicable back then as they are now. In fact, if you wish to state similar facts about the state of hockey, my "no cold = no hockey" is far closer to the mark.
now it was just a quick example off my head dont get silly

Erikfromfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 10:03 AM
  #436
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erikfromfin View Post
dont get silly
Thanks for the advice. There's really no need for it, given how well it's provided for already.

FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2013, 11:15 PM
  #437
Mr Kanadensisk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
That would be the end of IIHF and the end of international hockey development (which IIHF is directly helping).
No offense, but if everyone thought like this we would still be living in caves. Making changes certainly wouldn't mean the end of any of this. You just have to dare to dream of how to make things better.

Mr Kanadensisk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 08:42 AM
  #438
Jussi
No strings on me
 
Jussi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The lunatic fridge
Country: Finland
Posts: 49,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
No offense, but if everyone thought like this we would still be living in caves. Making changes certainly wouldn't mean the end of any of this. You just have to dare to dream of how to make things better.
You really need to do some research which entity is responsible for developing hockey in smaller countries.

Jussi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 11:31 AM
  #439
Slimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: GBG
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I would gladly dump two WHC for one World Cup. Hopefully the latter will lead to even less NHL players in the WHC and they disband it. Either way, you and the IIHF may think it's pointless, but it's not your interests that means anything here, nor is it in your power, it's what the NHL think is best for them and they might not care for the wellfare of the WHC. Ehh what do i care if the annual thing remains or not, let them play with KHL players only. That might actually be pretty nice for the european hockey scene as the KHL grows stronger, that we get to see players based in Europe battle it out each year.
Are you for real? Jeebus.. the ignorance.

Slimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 12:17 PM
  #440
Thesensation19*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,573
vCash: 500
Why must we choose between the two or other tournaments. Why cant we have hockey all the time?

Why cant we have World Cup of Hockey, All Star games, Exhibition games, Domestic leagues, international club games, Olympics and the WC.

Leave it be. Just schedule it better. I would gladly watch the WC if they had better viewing of it on TV. and all the game werent on at 6am or they showed replays and did a better job on advertising times

Thesensation19* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 12:29 PM
  #441
Slimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: GBG
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Nationalism is a big big deal in Europe which is why many people there see international tournaments as the way to grow the game, but this approach is just not that effective in the rest of the world (or even in Europe for that matter). Ice hockey has enjoyed Olympic exposure for close to 100 years, so it is pretty easy to see what that exposure can and can't do.
Would Sweden be one of these 'nationalistic' countries you speak of?
Your assertion seem more than a bit strange to me.

Slimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-05-2013, 12:42 PM
  #442
Slimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: GBG
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Why must we choose between the two or other tournaments. Why cant we have hockey all the time?

Why cant we have World Cup of Hockey, All Star games, Exhibition games, Domestic leagues, international club games, Olympics and the WC.

Leave it be. Just schedule it better. I would gladly watch the WC if they had better viewing of it on TV. and all the game werent on at 6am or they showed replays and did a better job on advertising times
This is a powerstruggle. The NHL wants to outmaneuver the IIHF to weaken it and ensure that it has no real relevance in the sport.
With the return of the World Cup you'd get additional revenue to the NHL yet also cater to the NHLPA's wish for members to participate in international tournaments (to be able to represent their country of birth). Ultimately, the NHL wish to only allow it's contracted players to participate in the World Cup and shut the door on the Olympics. However, I don't believe the NHLPA would be pleased with that arrangement.

Slimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 12:26 AM
  #443
Backami
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 144
vCash: 500
After the first NHL olympic tournament i disliked world cup.

Backami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 05:53 AM
  #444
FiLe
Mr. Know-It-Nothing
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
Ultimately, the NHL wish to only allow it's contracted players to participate in the World Cup and shut the door on the Olympics. However, I don't believe the NHLPA would be pleased with that arrangement.
I'd say that this arrangement would ultimately lead to a sorts of "Cold War" in the hockey world, with North America on one side and Europe on the other.

What would happen? Well, it'd start with the Russians. Most of them are extremely nationalistic. If the NHL shut the door on most international competition, most Russians would bolt back to the KHL. And that would mean the KHL would suddenly become far more enticing in the eyes of the rest of the European players as well. Why would Finns, Czechs and others look across the Atlantic anymore when there's a league that offers decent salaries and a chance to play with Ovechkins and Datsyuks right there across the border, plus an opportunity to visit home technically every day off? If all that's left of the NHL is the glamour associated with it, I'd say that's not quite enough to cut it when most of the kids on the European side grow up dreaming of WHC and olympic gold.

When the NHL, IIHF and IOC were birthing the deal to secure olympic participation, I was all the time saying that the NHL will squeeze any and every advantage they can out of it, but ultimately can't allow the arrangement to not happen. Because a few years down the road, that would ultimately hurt the league.


Last edited by FiLe: 09-06-2013 at 06:00 AM.
FiLe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 12:58 PM
  #445
Mr Kanadensisk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
You really need to do some research which entity is responsible for developing hockey in smaller countries.
If the IIHF tried some new things and increased their revenues then there is no reason this would stop. However we look at growth differently. I think it is better to add 101 players in say Russia than it is to add 100 anywhere else. You just have to think globally and not focus so much on nations.

Mr Kanadensisk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 01:01 PM
  #446
Mr Kanadensisk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,882
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slimmy View Post
Would Sweden be one of these 'nationalistic' countries you speak of?
Your assertion seem more than a bit strange to me.
Yes it would. Sweden is probably one of the least nationalistic countries within Europe, but in global terms it is certainly up there.

Mr Kanadensisk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 03:50 PM
  #447
Slimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: GBG
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Yes it would. Sweden is probably one of the least nationalistic countries within Europe, but in global terms it is certainly up there.
So, what is it then that makes Sweden nationalistic and Canada patriotic? Atlest that's the difference I assume you are referring to.

Slimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 04:45 PM
  #448
Slimmy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: GBG
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
If the IIHF tried some new things and increased their revenues then there is no reason this would stop. However we look at growth differently. I think it is better to add 101 players in say Russia than it is to add 100 anywhere else. You just have to think globally and not focus so much on nations.
What I feel is important is that the hockey market needs to widen. There should be more competition. KHL and NHL are the only competing leagues at this point of time. With rise of hockey in Denmark and Norway, perhaps a Scandinavian league could be established or a Nordic league. The balance of power needs to shift so that Europe has a competitive league of its own. I'm not at all interested in a league controlled by ether Russia or North America.

Slimmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2013, 07:42 PM
  #449
Jussi
No strings on me
 
Jussi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The lunatic fridge
Country: Finland
Posts: 49,524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
If the IIHF tried some new things and increased their revenues then there is no reason this would stop. However we look at growth differently. I think it is better to add 101 players in say Russia than it is to add 100 anywhere else. You just have to think globally and not focus so much on nations.
The highest division Worlds basically fund all the lower division tournaments. The lower division countries development need to be annually evaluated and these tournaments are the only way to do so. Hockey needs to spread out more in order to survive. It is already become a middle class sports instead of an every man's sport, it is better to have a new NHL player from Hungary than Russia or Canada.

Feel free to list those "new things".

Jussi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2013, 04:14 AM
  #450
Zine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,364
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Yes it would. Sweden is probably one of the least nationalistic countries within Europe, but in global terms it is certainly up there.

If Sweden is "certainly up there" in terms of nationalism, what does that make USA and Canada?


Forbes.com
http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/02/wor...01patriot.html
The NORC examines two factors: how proud respondents said they were to live in their respective countries, and whether they considered their own countries superior or inferior relative to other countries.
Most "Patriotic":
10. Israel
9. The Philippines
8. New Zealand
7. Chile
6. Canada
5. Austria
4. South Africa
3. Australia
2. Venezuela
1. United States

Least "Patriotic
10. Czech Republic
9. Switzerland
8. France
7. Taiwan
6. (Former West) Germany
5. Slovakia
4. Poland
3. Sweden
2. Latvia
1. (Former East) Germany


Last edited by Zine: 09-07-2013 at 04:32 AM.
Zine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:23 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.