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Old
05-20-2005, 09:53 PM
  #1
Chainsaw
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Umberger

6 points in 12 games. Whats the deal?

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05-20-2005, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Vancouver_Flyers_fan
6 points in 12 games. Whats the deal?
Playing on the 3rd line with Cote and an assortment of other wingers will do that. No fears, he'll be fine.

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05-20-2005, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Vancouver_Flyers_fan
6 points in 12 games. Whats the deal?
Slight change of role. With Jeff Carter and Mike Richards stepping in to the mix, R.J. was put on the third line for checking detail. Occasionally he will be put on right wing for the power play while Carter centers. All season long, he showed his offensive finness and was expected to put in very important goals OR atleast assist on them. Now that these two have stepped up R.J. has had less time to be provide the kind of offensive-impact that he has during the regular season.

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05-20-2005, 10:29 PM
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For his role in the playoffs, I think Umberger has done really well.

He impressed me the few times I got to see the Phantoms during the regular season

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05-22-2005, 01:23 PM
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With these 3 centers if I were another GM I'd be looking at trying to pick up Umberger. What a solid core of 3 young centers you guys have. What a nice predicament to be in!!!

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05-22-2005, 01:51 PM
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R.J. had a nice breakaway goal last night.

Critics, silencio.

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05-22-2005, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil
With these 3 centers if I were another GM I'd be looking at trying to pick up Umberger. What a solid core of 3 young centers you guys have. What a nice predicament to be in!!!
Nobody is going to want him, hes getting paid the rookie max. (NHL contract), well shouldnt say nobody..but it will be harder to trade him.

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05-22-2005, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Nobody is going to want him, hes getting paid the rookie max. (NHL contract), well shouldnt say nobody..but it will be harder to trade him.
Not looking to trade him, and how's that 2nd round pick working out for you ???

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05-22-2005, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Not looking to trade him, and how's that 2nd round pick working out for you ???
Good, Im not sure which of our 4 2nd round picks it was from RJ leaving but 3 outta the 4 of our 2nd round picks last June look to be pretty good.

Besides..never wanted the baby who sat out a season because his team wouldnt give him the rookie max then wouldnt sign with the Rangers because we wouldnt give the rookie max to a unproven baby.

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05-22-2005, 02:58 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Good, Im not sure which of our 4 2nd round picks it was from RJ leaving but 3 outta the 4 of our 2nd round picks last June look to be pretty good.

Besides..never wanted the baby who sat out a season because his team wouldnt give him the rookie max then wouldnt sign with the Rangers because we wouldnt give the rookie max to a unproven baby.
Rationalize it howevere you need to in your head, but he'd be your best forward prospect.

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05-22-2005, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Rationalize it howevere you need to in your head, but he'd be your best forward prospect.
Yea yea I kinda wish we paid him (definitely worth more then a 2nd round pick) but its done...Rangers didnt want to take the chance and Philly did.

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05-22-2005, 03:10 PM
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I hope you do realize the Rangers had 0 intention of signing Umberger. Vancouver didn't have a 2nd round pick so they traded Umberger's rights to the Rangers, and they got a compensation 2nd when he wasn't signed.

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05-22-2005, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by adurn
I hope you do realize the Rangers had 0 intention of signing Umberger. Vancouver didn't have a 2nd round pick so they traded Umberger's rights to the Rangers, and they got a compensation 2nd when he wasn't signed.
No they did...they did try to sign him but for less then what he wanted and he rejected. But i think the rangers knew when they got him that there was a big chance he wouldnt agree to what the rangers wanted to give him.

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05-22-2005, 03:12 PM
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Nobody is going to want him, hes getting paid the rookie max. (NHL contract), well shouldnt say nobody..but it will be harder to trade him.
I don't see him getting traded, really don't. I see him up with the Flyers whenever hockey starts again. No one knows if JR can play again so it leaves Zeus and Primeau as our centers. Everyone knows we lack a scoring threat so we need to use all the players we have. Have a good line with a Richards, Rj and Carter or a vet like Radio or whoever, he will score. He will be on the 3rd-4th line. Any line with him on it is a threat, he's doing a great job.

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05-22-2005, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Good, Im not sure which of our 4 2nd round picks it was from RJ leaving but 3 outta the 4 of our 2nd round picks last June look to be pretty good.

Besides..never wanted the baby who sat out a season because his team wouldnt give him the rookie max then wouldnt sign with the Rangers because we wouldnt give the rookie max to a unproven baby.
Unproven baby who outscored all Rangers forward prospects playing in the AHL. And this is coming from a rookie. Also outscored the prospect in the Vancouver organization who they gave a max rookie contract to as well.

So, before you start spewing your Ranjerk propaganda on this board, at least have a clue about what you're talking about first.

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05-22-2005, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Unproven baby who outscored all Rangers forward prospects playing in the AHL. And this is coming from a rookie. Also outscored the prospect in the Vancouver organization who they gave a max rookie contract to as well.

So, before you start spewing your Ranjerk propaganda on this board, at least have a clue about what you're talking about first.
Sorry bud, learn the facts, Nucks WOULDNT give him the rookie max, if they did he wouldnt have sat out a full season. And YES unproven baby at the time. Think before you type.

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05-22-2005, 04:20 PM
  #17
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Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Good, Im not sure which of our 4 2nd round picks it was from RJ leaving but 3 outta the 4 of our 2nd round picks last June look to be pretty good.

Besides..never wanted the baby who sat out a season because his team wouldnt give him the rookie max then wouldnt sign with the Rangers because we wouldnt give the rookie max to a unproven baby.

I think this entire line of reasoning is great - we are discussing a league of "babies" for sitting out an entire season (and don't give me owner lockout crap) because they want 59% of revenues vs. 55%.
Sorry just had to vent about the NHL situation and I think both parties are in error in this stale mate but more so the players.

Oh ya, the Rags could not really negotiate with RJ as he had already missed most of the season and was either going to get all (rookie max) or nothing. Anyway the Nucks get a second for a bridge that had long since burnt, the Rags get the pick back so lose nothing, and the Flyers get a very good prospect that is NHL ready in a year when they had dealt their first rounder (in a piss poor deal I might add). So, really no big losers in this scenario.

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05-22-2005, 04:20 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Unproven baby who outscored all Rangers forward prospects playing in the AHL. And this is coming from a rookie. Also outscored the prospect in the Vancouver organization who they gave a max rookie contract to as well.

So, before you start spewing your Ranjerk propaganda on this board, at least have a clue about what you're talking about first.
It was typical Burke - run down the player and attack the agent instead of doing a deal. Umberger was only asking for what other drafts in his round received.

We do know WHAT the offer from the Canucks was because Umberger and Brian Lawton, Umberger's agent released the contract proposal after become frustrated with Burkie's misrepresentations on the offer. The offer was $625,000, $650,000 and $675,000 base salaries with a $700,000 signing bonus over three years. It has been reported in various media in the past.

Then compare it to other teams who signed their first round picks that year for the rookie maximum. In Umberger's draft year:

-the #7 pick was by Montreal - Mike Komisarek was signed for $1.13 million
-the #9 pick was by Chicago - Tuomo Ruutu was signed for $1.13 million
-the # 12 pick was by Nashville - Dan Hamhuis was signed for 1.13 million
-the # 13 pick was by Edmonton - Ales Hemsky was signed for $1.13 million
-the #14 pick was by Calgary - Chuck Kobasew was signed for $1.13 million
-the # 16 pick was by Vancouver - RJ Umberger signed by Philadelphia for $1.13 million
-the #17 pick was by Toronto - Carlo Colaiacovo was signed for $1.13 million
-the #19 pick was by Boston - Shaone Morrisonn was signed for $1.13 million

ARE YOU BEGINNING TO SEE A PATTERN HERE? and why Umberger and his agent saw little problem in getting the rookie maximum on the open market?

Also why they would be insulted by the offer from Burke?

Take a look at the #19 pick in the SECOND round of 2001 (#49) overall:
Mike Cammalleri signed by LA for $1.075 million which was the maximum for 2000 rookies. LA has a salary structure which is very close to the Canucks. This is common, with second round picks signing for the previous years rookie maximum in the top 2/3's of the second round.

Kesler was paid $825,000 for his first season and was due for $850,000 this year and $900,000 in his third year. His signing bonus has been reported as $900,000.
http://nhlpa.com/WebStats/PlayerSea...sp?OIDTeam=8384

Burkie also went on and on about Umberger's lack of heart, lack of physical play, inability to play defense, poor work ethic, etc. This was vintage Burke and we have seen this movie played numerous times with Trent Klatt, Murray Baron, Kevin Weekes, Andrew Cassels, Peter Schaefer and so on.

As usual the clueless in Vancouver believed it without looking for themselves.

Here is how Umberger's coach this year looks at him:

Quote:
"I would never want to put a timetable on it, but he's certainly opened some eyes this year with what he's been able to do," Phantoms head coach John Stevens said after Philadelphia's 5-3 win over the Penguins on Tuesday night in Game 4.

"A big guy that can carry the puck and play, a guy with skill that size, I think he's going to have a bright future."

Umberger responded by leading his new team in scoring with 65 points, leading AHL rookies in assists with 44, and being named Phantoms Rookie of the Year.

"He's done a lot of great things this year," Stevens said.
As noted his role was changed and he has responded well to defensive responsibilites handed to him.
Quote:
Don’t call it a demotion. Just call it a new opportunity.

That’s how R.J. Umberger viewed his new role as the center on the Phantoms’ checking line in Game 4.

It was a chance to refocus. It was a chance to get back to playing the game that made him one of the most successful rookies in the AHL in the regular season. It was a chance to once again be one of the Phantoms best players.

Umberger made the most of that chance.

Supplanted by Mike Richards as the man in the middle on the Phantoms’ second line, Umberger took the move in stride and instead of sulking and complaining, played his best game of the playoffs.

Umberger was more physical than he’s been in any game this postseason. He created scoring chances. He forced turnovers. He was a whirling dervish in the Wilkes-Barre zone, forcing the Penguins to make multiple outlet passes as opposed to easily skating out of their zone with the puck.

And by doing this, Umberger made the most important play of the game.

While relentlessly pressuring the Penguins in their own end, Umberger picked off a bad pass by Ross Lupaschuck and then, fighting off Ryan Whitney with his right hand, Umberger lifted a one-handed backhander past Pens goalie Andy Chiodo to give the Phantoms a two-goal cushion in the second period of their eventual 5-3 win.
And people still wonder why Burkie was handed his walking papers.

A totally screwed up set of negotiations with Umberger and the loss of a very valuable asset with virtually nothing to show for it. As noted he would be the top prospect if he had stayed in Vancouver.

Burke should have signed him and stuck him in the AHL (or traded him early on when he had some value). And he would not be earning his NHL salary since all rookie pacts are required to be two way.

Burkie, Burkie, Burkie .... Stupid, stupid, stupid.

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05-22-2005, 04:21 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Sorry bud, learn the facts, Nucks WOULDNT give him the rookie max, if they did he wouldnt have sat out a full season. And YES unproven baby at the time. Think before you type.
None of these players are "proven" - they are paid based upon where they are drafted.

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05-22-2005, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
None of these players are "proven" - they are paid based upon where they are drafted.
And I wouldn't know why the Rangers or Canucks for that matter wouldn't have paid top dollar considering both teams have deep pocket books. Even with the Oilers having Schremp and Pouliot and with the emergence of Brodziak, I would like to acquire a guy like Umberger just to help solidify the team depth up the middle for years to come. If I were Clarke, I would hold onto him. Hopefully for the Flyers fans he won't deal Richards just because he's not 6'2" tall or taller.

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05-22-2005, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil
And I wouldn't know why the Rangers or Canucks for that matter wouldn't have paid top dollar considering both teams have deep pocket books. Even with the Oilers having Schremp and Pouliot and with the emergence of Brodziak, I would like to acquire a guy like Umberger just to help solidify the team depth up the middle for years to come. If I were Clarke, I would hold onto him. Hopefully for the Flyers fans he won't deal Richards just because he's not 6'2" tall or taller.
No way does Mike Richards go anywhere. Not after his playoff performances, his WJC performances, etc.....Yeah, he might not be 6'2, 200+ pounds, but he's probably the most important prospect besides Carter that the organization has. Probably the most underrated as well. Everyone talks about Mike's defensive game, but very seldom do you hear anyone talk about his offensive game. It's just as good, maybe even better than Carter's game.

As for Umberger, wouldn't surprise me if he becomes a winger on either the Richards or Carter line. I think the prospect that will surprise everyone the most though will be Stefan Ruzicka. I know that he has received some flak for not always showing up, but I think that things will be OK in Philadelphia. I'd like to think that being in North America by yourself and not having any family close by might be playing on his mind just a little bit and that might be why he's been inconsistent in his play. Once the family comes over, then you'll see him kick it up a notch with regards to consistency.

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05-22-2005, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Sorry bud, learn the facts, Nucks WOULDNT give him the rookie max, if they did he wouldnt have sat out a full season. And YES unproven baby at the time. Think before you type.
No, you read closely what I wrote. He wouldn't play for the Canucks because they low balled him on their contract offer. They gave Kesler the max, but refused to do any kind of similar deal with Umberger. No, not baby at all. Smart business man actually. Why should he have accepted a low ball deal when as Wetcoaster pointed out, several rookies in his class signed rookie max deals.

And as pointed out, Umberger has proven beyond a doubt that the contract wasn't a mistake. In his rookie year, he lead his team in scoring, outscored Kesler in the same amount of games, and was only outscored by Bochenski and Vanek in the rookie class.

He's delivered. Isn't it unbelievable what happens when you give someone a chance. Vancouver and New York wrote him off before even giving him a chance. Glad we have him.

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05-22-2005, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
No, you read closely what I wrote. He wouldn't play for the Canucks because they low balled him on their contract offer. They gave Kesler the max, but refused to do any kind of similar deal with Umberger. No, not baby at all. Smart business man actually. Why should he have accepted a low ball deal when as Wetcoaster pointed out, several rookies in his class signed rookie max deals.

And as pointed out, Umberger has proven beyond a doubt that the contract wasn't a mistake. In his rookie year, he lead his team in scoring, outscored Kesler in the same amount of games, and was only outscored by Bochenski and Vanek in the rookie class.

He's delivered. Isn't it unbelievable what happens when you give someone a chance. Vancouver and New York wrote him off before even giving him a chance. Glad we have him.
Ok, my mistake i did read it wrong.

But I wouldnt start calling him "proven" till he proves himself in the NHL.

Yes smart buisiness man...but we all see where his heart is dont we? Money before Hockey...even as a rookie.

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05-22-2005, 06:57 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil
And I wouldn't know why the Rangers or Canucks for that matter wouldn't have paid top dollar considering both teams have deep pocket books. Even with the Oilers having Schremp and Pouliot and with the emergence of Brodziak, I would like to acquire a guy like Umberger just to help solidify the team depth up the middle for years to come. If I were Clarke, I would hold onto him. Hopefully for the Flyers fans he won't deal Richards just because he's not 6'2" tall or taller.
Burke got himself in a pi$$ing match as he so often does and he would not back down. He began to believe his own press clippings.

The problem was that Umberger unlike 99.9% of the draftees had an option. If he was not signed within 2 years then he became a unrestricted free agent rather than his rights just going back into the draft. he then could peddle his services to the highest bidder which is precisely what he did. he and his agent used the system to do what was best for Umberger.

Burkie OTOH squandered a valuable asset.

Burke made stupid decision to go to the mat with a player who had the leverage in the negotiations.

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05-22-2005, 07:01 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Ok, my mistake i did read it wrong.

But I wouldnt start calling him "proven" till he proves himself in the NHL.

Yes smart buisiness man...but we all see where his heart is dont we? Money before Hockey...even as a rookie.
No rookies are proven. They sign a contract and then prove themselves in pro.

There is a reason this is called PROFESSIONAL sports - it is business.

There seems to be no question of his heart and grit based on his play as professional thus far. All the unfounded aspersions cast upon him by Burkie have proven to be false.

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