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Old
05-26-2013, 01:39 PM
  #326
La Cosa Nostra
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post

your emotion is completely blinding... but also wildly entertaining
Says the guy who proposed trading Jason Pominville for Trent Hunter and a 2nd . But Jame is the master trade proposer.

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05-26-2013, 03:33 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Says the guy who proposed trading Jason Pominville for Trent Hunter and a 2nd . But Jame is the master trade proposer.
I saw the physical limitations and leadership flaws long ago...

where you see a terrible trade proposal (in hindsight it was), what you don't see is that the context of the proposal was spot on... you don't know hockey, all you know is stats.

it sure was fun wasting a half decade on the soft as tissue rochester core... good thing we kept all those "point getters"

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05-26-2013, 03:37 PM
  #328
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I wonder if Ruff is on the shortlist for the Canucks job now that AV has been shown the door. I say that here in that most any Sabre to Vancouver may be limited by any input from Ruff as a possible bench boss there. The Vanek-for-to-Vancouver stuff might not be in anyone's interest if Ruff is there.

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05-26-2013, 03:38 PM
  #329
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With Bobrovsky possibly making a move to the KHL, I could see Columbus offering up one of those 1st for Miller.
Where did you hear this?

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05-26-2013, 04:43 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by kenfury View Post
Where did you hear this?
Yahoo had an article about SKA St. Petersburg targeting him. Apparently, CBJ and Bob haven't made any progress in contract negotiations, so this may be little more than a convenient leak from Bob's camp in an effort to enhance his leverage. There are reports he wants $5-$6m per.

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05-26-2013, 05:28 PM
  #331
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I'm still in the keep Vanek camp. He's no spring chicken, but he's got some good miles left that's for sure.

If I'm Terry, Ted and Darcy, I'm on the phone every week to Vanek and his agent for the next month doing my best at pitching the idea of "Re-sign (4-5 years), be the Captain, lead the new young core into the future etc"

Ultimately, Vanek holds all the cards. I think he's probably heading out the door. However, I don't believe that it's too far fetched to see him re-sign at a shorter term (2-3 years) around 6.5-7 million a season and be the next captain.

To me, Miller needs to go. Before the season, for the best offer. For better or worse, I think his time here has come and gone. It's doubtful that he re-signs here for one. And there's no way the Sabres should tie up 6+ million into a 34 year old goalie for the term that Miller's probably looking for. His value will be no higher than it is right now.

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05-26-2013, 06:14 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Yahoo had an article about SKA St. Petersburg targeting him. Apparently, CBJ and Bob haven't made any progress in contract negotiations, so this may be little more than a convenient leak from Bob's camp in an effort to enhance his leverage. There are reports he wants $5-$6m per.
5 million for a likely Vezina winner seems acceptable market value.

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05-26-2013, 07:19 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I saw the physical limitations and leadership flaws long ago...

where you see a terrible trade proposal (in hindsight it was), what you don't see is that the context of the proposal was spot on... you don't know hockey, all you know is stats.

it sure was fun wasting a half decade on the soft as tissue rochester core... good thing we kept all those "point getters"
and i think (and i think a lot of others reading this agree with me here) that you are also failing to see that pominville for hunter and a 2nd is a terrible proposal in any circumstance at any point in time since 2006.

"you don't know hockey, all you know is stats," yeesh.

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05-26-2013, 10:38 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by liquid swords View Post
and i think (and i think a lot of others reading this agree with me here) that you are also failing to see that pominville for hunter and a 2nd is a terrible proposal in any circumstance at any point in time since 2006.

"you don't know hockey, all you know is stats," yeesh.
...i proposed trading an 80 pt Roy for a 40 pt Kesler and people had the same reaction at that time. Your position is that you can't trade higher scoring players for more complete players... and that's how you become the Buffalo Sabres circa 2008-2013. Hunters career plateaued at a lower level than I projected, I thought getting him on a team with some talent (the Isles had none), would've made him a consistent 40-50 pt player (maybe it would have). Hunter was exactly the type of player we desperately needed, and as the years went on we saw it as the Sabres became a physical laughing stock.

building a team is more complicated than re-signing home grown talent

and you can see, if you want to search, that I proposed a half dozen different proposals for Hunter over a 2 year span... stafford for hunter, pommer for hunter, 2nd.... macarthur, sekera, 3rd for hunter... hecht, sekera for hunter...

It's obvious I felt Hunter was the type of player we needed... low and behold, a half decade later we traded Derek Roy for Steve Ott... you could say, i was just ahead of the game
fyi .... Ryan O'reilly was taken 2 picks after that Isles pick...

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05-26-2013, 11:41 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Says the guy who proposed trading Jason Pominville for Trent Hunter and a 2nd . But Jame is the master trade proposer.
...and everyone else is wrong. We've all danced this dance with him before.





I'm not sure if Darcy has been inquiring about Stastny at all, but he should be. Give Colorado a way out and give us a center that can play with Vanek and entice him to stick around. Get rid of Stafford, get rid of Miller, and be patient with our very deep and balanced prospect pool. Let them take over like we did with the last core, except this time our new core will have natural leaders and complete players, along with very talented players like Armia, Grigs, and whoever we happen to draft at 8 and 16.

I'm just not on board with a full tank-style rebuild, I hate that **** and don't want to sit through 3-4 years of garbage play to wait for a team that might be able to compete in 2016. Give me pieces that can help this team now, and be patient with our awesome prospect pool that will only get better after this draft.

If Mac can be had for a decent price, then go for it, but its just not going to happen. The Top 3 in this draft are just absolute studs (Mac moreso than Drouin or Jones) and I don't see Fla, Col, or TB (to a lesser extent) trading out of those picks, unless someone offers a stupid overpayment (like Jame's proposal) which Darcy would never do. So yeah, we can choose to live in fantasy land and cross our fingers for something that'll never happen, or we can be realistic and pray for the best with the cards we've been dealt.

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05-27-2013, 12:13 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by cramdizzl View Post
I'm not sure if Darcy has been inquiring about Stastny at all, but he should be. Give Colorado a way out and give us a center that can play with Vanek and entice him to stick around. Get rid of Stafford, get rid of Miller,
Tell us again, about how acquiring 1 year Stastny, while trading the franchise goaltender will entice Vanek to stick around
Quote:
I'm just not on board with a full tank-style rebuild, I hate that **** and don't want to sit through 3-4 years of garbage play to wait for a team that might be able to compete in 2016. Give me pieces that can help this team now, and be patient with our awesome prospect pool that will only get better after this draft.
seems contradictory...

Quote:
If Mac can be had for a decent price, then go for it, but its just not going to happen. The Top 3 in this draft are just absolute studs (Mac moreso than Drouin or Jones) and I don't see Fla, Col, or TB (to a lesser extent) trading out of those picks, unless someone offers a stupid overpayment (like Jame's proposal) which Darcy would never do. So yeah, we can choose to live in fantasy land and cross our fingers for something that'll never happen, or we can be realistic and pray for the best with the cards we've been dealt.
there's no such thing as a stupid overpayment for an "absolute stud"

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05-27-2013, 12:35 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Tell us again, about how acquiring 1 year Stastny, while trading the franchise goaltender will entice Vanek to stick around


seems contradictory...



there's no such thing as a stupid overpayment for an "absolute stud"
Because Vanek would like a first line offensive center to play with, which I believe Paul is, and obviously both of them could be resigned. With both of them on contract years, you can expect big numbers. And he's also not stupid enough to think that trading Miller means the team is going to completely suck, Enroth can obviously play.


And yes there is, you just refuse to see it because you would rather die than admit you were wrong on these boards. A stupid overpayment means gutting your team or prospect pool for one player with the hopes that he will lead you to a cup that may never come. Its stupid overpayment because you literally have no precedent or comparable trade besides Lindros, and look how that turned out.


Last edited by Chainshot: 05-27-2013 at 01:25 PM. Reason: Debate post point, not poster.
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05-27-2013, 07:28 AM
  #339
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Can anyone foresee the possibility that the Sabres consider using Grigorenko as trade bait for O'Reilly when he becomes available 2/28/14?
It may be a moot point as a few Colorado fans have pointed out the tension between O'Reily and the team was the old GM (and son)....now with Joe Sakic n Roy taking over, who would want to leave?

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05-27-2013, 08:43 AM
  #340
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Can anyone foresee the possibility that the Sabres consider using Grigorenko as trade bait for O'Reilly when he becomes available 2/28/14?
I already have.

It's buried in one of the draft threads. Additionally, I don't love Erne at 16, but I'd rationalize the pick that he's going to Colorado at the deadline for ROR.

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Old
05-27-2013, 09:19 AM
  #341
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Because Vanek would like a first line offensive center to play with, which I believe Paul is, and obviously both of them could be resigned. With both of them on contract years, you can expect big numbers. And he's also not stupid enough to think that trading Miller means the team is going to completely suck, Enroth can obviously play.
that's exactly what he thinks. he's literally said so...

cody hodgson is better than paul stastny offensively


Quote:
And yes there is, you just refuse to see it because you would rather die than admit you were wrong on these boards. A stupid overpayment means gutting your team or prospect pool for one player with the hopes that he will lead you to a cup that may never come. Its stupid overpayment because you literally have no precedent or comparable trade besides Lindros, and look how that turned out.
we aren't having a "right vs wrong" debate here. just wanted to clear that up for you.

I have no comparable because no team would ever trade OUT of the true franchise player in the modern cap world.


Last edited by Chainshot: 05-27-2013 at 01:25 PM. Reason: QDP
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05-27-2013, 09:24 AM
  #342
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(moved from the draft thread if it reads a little wierd)
Stastny, OReilly, Landeskog. None are third liners (especially at Stastny and O'Reilly's pay) so I think the Avs won the jackpot by being able to take Jones at 1 because...

Florida has Huberdaeu and Bjugstad and I believe is also looking for a reason not to draft center which is a problem for TB because...

Yzermam is getting poo'd on for last seasons under achieving and doesn't need an 18 year old center on THIS SEASONS roster. If Tampa ends up in a position next year to get a center like that, Yzerman is probably unemployed. Given Darcy's trade ability and Yzerman needing defenseman and the playoffs, there maybe an excellent avenue to bolster their roster for next season while addressing Lecavalier's contract situation.

Vanek, Sekera, Ennis and the 8th go to TB for the third and Lecavalier. This gives Yzerman a second tier goal scorer (ie 25-35 goals) a cheap center, help on a shaky blueline and let's him draft Ristolainen at 8 while clearing the cap room needed to resign Vanek.

Then Buffalo swaps 2 and 3 with Florida using Miller and mid prospect (Cat, Sundher, JGL type) as the enticer. Allowing Florida to take Druin at 3 and giving them something for the inevitable departure of Miller at the seasons end while still giving a playoff shot with a high end goaltender.

Then package the 16th and some seconds to move up and get Nikita Zadorov (London Knights) before the 10-15 range. Specifically I'm thinking NJ because they need the currency to replace the first rounder lost in the Kovalchuck circumvention fine. 38, 48 + NJ second will allow them to essentially buy an extra first. Toss in everyone's favorite winger to provide insurance for Clarkson in free agency.

Buf 3rd, Lecavalier <-> TB Vanek, Sekera, Ennis, 8th (roughly the equivalent of the Nash deal)

Buf 2nd <-> Florida 3rd, Miller, JGL

Buf 9th <-> NJ 16th, 38th, 48th, Drew Stafford, Luke Adam (it's not a proposal unless those 2 are dealt as spare parts somewhere)

Col - Jones
Buf - Mackinnon
Flo - Druin

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05-27-2013, 09:35 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Imlach a cup View Post
(moved from the draft thread if it reads a little wierd)
Stastny, OReilly, Landeskog. None are third liners (especially at Stastny and O'Reilly's pay) so I think the Avs won the jackpot by being able to take Jones at 1 because...
stastny is in the last year of his deal
Landeskog is a winger
Oreilly is more suited in a top 6 shutdown role
Mackinnin is who they should take

Quote:
Florida has Huberdaeu and Bjugstad and I believe is also looking for a reason not to draft center which is a problem for TB because...
Huberdeau is a LW

Quote:
Yzermam is getting poo'd on for last seasons under achieving and doesn't need an 18 year old center on THIS SEASONS roster. If Tampa ends up in a position next year to get a center like that, Yzerman is probably unemployed. Given Darcy's trade ability and Yzerman needing defenseman and the playoffs, there maybe an excellent avenue to bolster their roster for next season while addressing Lecavalier's contract situation.
Lecavalier has a full NMC

Quote:
Vanek, Sekera, Ennis and the 8th go to TB for the third and Lecavalier. This gives Yzerman a second tier goal scorer (ie 25-35 goals) a cheap center, help on a shaky blueline and let's him draft Ristolainen at 8 while clearing the cap room needed to resign Vanek.
Tampa Bay is loaded with young D prospects at every level. Gudas is a beast. TB doesnt to their blueline to develop, the don't have to draft D. I doubt they trade down from 3 where they have their choice of elite scorers.

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05-27-2013, 09:36 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
stastny is in the last year of his deal
Landeskog is a winger
Oreilly is more suited in a top 6 shutdown role
Mackinnin is who they should take



Huberdeau is a LW



Lecavalier has a full NMC



Tampa Bay is loaded with young D prospects at every level. Gudas is a beast. TB doesnt to their blueline to develop, the don't have to draft D. I doubt they trade down from 3 where they have their choice of elite scorers.
well fine then

coulda swore Landeskog played center

huberdeau is listed at center everywhere including the panther's depth chart, and if the AVs go Jones everything else can still work

Lecavalier would be for b/o purposes so what reason would he have not to waive? unless he really likes TB and not all the money in his pocket, and the entire premise around TB's D is that they need people today because Yzerman is under fire, I'll come out and say I wouldn't do it but my jobs not on the line if TB doesn't make the playoffs this season, you acquire Sekera because he can play top 4 now then bring in a veteran via FA and try to save your job by making the playoffs, this would be the sketchiest part because you would have to assume Lecavalier likes money and Yzerman is worried about job security, then it would be up to Darth Regier to get the job done, Yzerman makes the playoffs this season and he buys himself time for those defenders to develop


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05-27-2013, 09:58 AM
  #345
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So Florida would pass on the best player of the draft so that they can try to force Huberdeau into the middle? It makes a lot more sense to leave him on wing, draft MacKinnon and have your top-6 centers in Mac-Bjugstad for the next 10 years, as well as a top player on the wing in Huberdeau.

Florida would pick Mac at #2. I'd put all my vCash on it.

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05-27-2013, 10:13 AM
  #346
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So Florida would pass on the best player of the draft so that they can try to force Huberdeau into the middle? It makes a lot more sense to leave him on wing, draft MacKinnon and have your top-6 centers in Mac-Bjugstad for the next 10 years, as well as a top player on the wing in Huberdeau.

Florida would pick Mac at #2. I'd put all my vCash on it.
http://panthers.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8476456 i don't know, you tell me where they're going to put the guy listed on their website as a center, its a franchise that needs wins to put fans in the seats, you still bring in a big name draftee at 3 and you bring in the most recognizable American hockey player of the last 3 seasons to stuff in net, Florida isn't trading out of the top 3 they're moving down 1 spot to draft what it appears their depth chart says they need. If that's incorrect and they're just listing him as center because its a book keeping thing fine, but the website says he plays C and that's what I based this on

and if I'm drafting 1,2,3 I go Mac, Jones, Druin but my job doesn't depend on it and my attendance doesn't either, the proposal helps both Florida and Tampa for this season and if we are gonna move into the top of the draft that's what you need to bank on, that someones making a business decision over a hockey a decision, they happen, please see Drury/Briere, the last 2 seasons of sabres hockey or the last decade of Calgary flames, the Burke tenure in Toronto and the free spending Rangers of the 90's, every move made in the NHL is not always about the future


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05-27-2013, 10:36 AM
  #347
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cody hodgson is better than paul stastny offensively


it was contradictory because "waiting patiently" for our talent to develop will inevitable mean some painful losing seasons in the immediate future
So what would be wrong with having 2 offensively gifted centers if this team isn't going to tank? That opens up scoring depth a hell of a lot. I'm not saying theres any real chance of it happening, but if it could, why not? Would you really not like to see our team be able to compete and still have a bright future?

I don't think thats true at all, because so many of our prospects are not far from joining the squad. If we can trade the undesirables on the team to acquire pieces that can play now, why not? I'd love to see this team make some noise, because I really believe they were not as bad last season as you and many other make them out to be. They went toe to toe with the best in the conference and played down to the level of crappy competition, which can be fixed with good coaching.

Give Vanek and our other talent some quality players (i.e. Staz,Ryan, Loui) and see what they can do in both the immediate future, and when our prospects like Armia, ZG, Grigs, McCabe, McNabb, etc, finally come to play. I think this fantasy is far more plausible than moving up for a top-3 pick.

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05-27-2013, 10:38 AM
  #348
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So what would be wrong with having 2 offensively gifted centers if this team isn't going to tank? That opens up scoring depth a hell of a lot. I'm not saying theres any real chance of it happening, but if it could, why not? Would you really not like to see our team be able to compete and still have a bright future?

I don't think thats true at all, because so many of our prospects are not far from joining the squad. If we can trade the undesirables on the team to acquire pieces that can play now, why not? I'd love to see this team make some noise, because I really believe they were not as bad last season as you and many other make them out to be. They went toe to toe with the best in the conference and played down to the level of crappy competition, which can be fixed with good coaching.

Give Vanek and our other talent some quality players (i.e. Staz,Ryan, Loui) and see what they can do in both the immediate future, and when our prospects like Armia, ZG, Grigs, McCabe, McNabb, etc, finally come to play. I think this fantasy is far more plausible than moving up for a top-3 pick.
if Grigorenko, Stastny, Hodgson are the top centers on this team then we better have 4 hall of famers to play D for us because theres not a single talented 2 way player in that list

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05-27-2013, 11:22 AM
  #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imlach a cup View Post
http://panthers.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8476456 i don't know, you tell me where they're going to put the guy listed on their website as a center, its a franchise that needs wins to put fans in the seats, you still bring in a big name draftee at 3 and you bring in the most recognizable American hockey player of the last 3 seasons to stuff in net, Florida isn't trading out of the top 3 they're moving down 1 spot to draft what it appears their depth chart says they need. If that's incorrect and they're just listing him as center because its a book keeping thing fine, but the website says he plays C and that's what I based this on
Huberdeau is definitely listed as a center on the Panthers' site*, but he plays on the wing more frequently.

Lines
Lines
Lines
Frequent Linemates

Steve Ott has taken the draws for our centers, so it does happen, but Huberdeau's faceoff numbers suggest that he's a winger. He took an average of 0.7 faceoffs per game.

Florida fans
are licking their chops to put him on Mackinnon's wing.

He was listed as a winger in junior and was named to the QMJHL First All-Star Team as a left wing.

*The NHL's Sabres site lists our centers as: Adam, Ennis, Flynn, Hecht, Hodgson, Ott, Porter.

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05-27-2013, 12:07 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by cybresabre View Post
Huberdeau is definitely listed as a center on the Panthers' site*, but he plays on the wing more frequently.

Lines
Lines
Lines
Frequent Linemates

Steve Ott has taken the draws for our centers, so it does happen, but Huberdeau's faceoff numbers suggest that he's a winger. He took an average of 0.7 faceoffs per game.

Florida fans
are licking their chops to put him on Mackinnon's wing.

He was listed as a winger in junior and was named to the QMJHL First All-Star Team as a left wing.

*The NHL's Sabres site lists our centers as: Adam, Ennis, Flynn, Hecht, Hodgson, Ott, Porter.
then do everything the same but we draft Druin or try to make a move to send either Hodgson or Grigorenko + 3rd to fla, the 2 of them are redundant anyway, no need to have 2 1 dimensional centers floating around

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