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Old
05-19-2013, 01:12 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
They're a budget team who have shown no willingness to make this sort of move. They're going to continue to build from within and bide their time until they are in their new building and start the taps on some new revenue streams. Years of control and real money are huge to the Isles.

Try standing in the other team's shoes.
I wonder if Pegula would be willing to work some magic with DiPietro? Maybe a trade that, standing on its own merit, never flies in terms of value or in terms of how the Isles operate. But if Buffalo takes DiPietro off Snow's hands, maybe it works.

Thinking something like this:

Vanek or Miller for a prospect (Niederreiter?) plus DiPietro.

Buffalo then spends a compliance buy-out on DiPietro. The Isles get only one known year of a player, but wash their hands of the money they have to spend on DiPietro. Buffalo gets a prospect they'd otherwise not be be to acquire.

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05-19-2013, 01:16 PM
  #152
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If only teams could negotiate contracts mid season... think of how high Vanek's value would be!

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05-19-2013, 01:34 PM
  #153
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To be fair, I think Doak and Der Jaeger were talking up Vanek for Josi first.

It's amazing how some of these second round d-men develop.
thats why i do not want Buffalo draft a Dman at 8th and 16th. I feel they have alot better luck in finding good Dmen in the 2nd round than they would in trying to find skilled forwards who have legit top 2 line potential.

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05-19-2013, 01:43 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I wonder if Pegula would be willing to work some magic with DiPietro? Maybe a trade that, standing on its own merit, never flies in terms of value or in terms of how the Isles operate. But if Buffalo takes DiPietro off Snow's hands, maybe it works.

Thinking something like this:

Vanek or Miller for a prospect (Niederreiter?) plus DiPietro.

Buffalo then spends a compliance buy-out on DiPietro. The Isles get only one known year of a player, but wash their hands of the money they have to spend on DiPietro. Buffalo gets a prospect they'd otherwise not be be to acquire.
Dipietro is owed $4.5M per year for 8 years. A buy out is $1.5M over 16 years---or $24M

I am not trading Vanek/Miller + $24M for Niederreiter. Buffalo would have to get alot more to justify the $24M cost.

Outside of Dipietro, the islanders really dont have any other bad contract. They use one of their 2 buyouts on him...end of story.

If they traded Miller or Vanek they would be able to get in return Niederreiter easily without having to eat $24M

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05-19-2013, 01:48 PM
  #155
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thats why i do not want Buffalo draft a Dman at 8th and 16th. I feel they have alot better luck in finding good Dmen in the 2nd round than they would in trying to find skilled forwards who have legit top 2 line potential.
It's not like guys like Seabrook (14th), Suter (7th), Pietrangelo (4th) or Doughty (2nd) are slugs. Some guys hit, many more do not.

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05-19-2013, 01:49 PM
  #156
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Maybe they want to win a 1st round series within the next 20 years. Strome is no guarantee to help the Isles get into the 2nd round. Vanek is.
This is now the time the Islanders need to make the steps to acquire some missing pieces on their team and not perpetually wait for young players to develop.

With a player like Tavaris they need to get a player like Vanek or Ryan.

They need to be able to sell their new home---they need to be a good team with that feeling of they are going for it to drive sales.

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05-19-2013, 01:55 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
It's not like guys like Seabrook (14th), Suter (7th), Pietrangelo (4th) or Doughty (2nd) are slugs. Some guys hit, many more do not.

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Go back through the top half of draft picks and see how many busts have occurred when it comes to Dmen---alot more. You would expect using a top 10 pick on a Dman he better be a top 2 pairing Dman otherwise you are wasting the pick. You dont draft 4th-7th dmen using top 1st round picks.

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05-19-2013, 02:00 PM
  #158
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Go back through the top half of draft picks and see how many busts have occurred when it comes to Dmen---alot more. You would expect using a top 10 pick on a Dman he better be a top 2 pairing Dman otherwise you are wasting the pick. You dont draft 4th-7th dmen using top 1st round picks.
The top 10 is littered with plenty of forwards who don't live up to expectations too, particularly in the range where Buffalo is drafting.

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05-19-2013, 02:36 PM
  #159
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Stop. All I said was Vanek was would help the CURRENT Isles teams progress. Ryan Strome is still a prospect while Vanek is an elite goal scorer. There is NO guarantee Strome will ever produce like Vanek has.
Actually, that's not what you said. You said Vanek is a guarantee to help the Isles get into the 2nd round. Remember?

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Maybe they want to win a 1st round series within the next 20 years. Strome is no guarantee to help the Isles get into the 2nd round. Vanek is.
So a guy who didn't lead his team to a 2nd round in six seasons is "guaranteed" to take a fringe playoff team to the 2nd round? I don't think so.

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And btw, last time I checked Thomas Vanek has 7 playoff goals in 10 games going back to his last two series. He is single handily put us in position to beat Philly in 2011 and before he got cheap shotted Vanek had the Sabres in the driver seat against the Bruins.The Isles haven't won a series since 1993
Great, why are you trying to make this into an argument over Vanek's past playoff performances? You're changing your argument. Nobody was arguing that Vanek wouldn't help the Isles. What I am arguing is that acquiring him is not a guarantee that they get into the 2nd round, as you argued. In fact, acquiring Vanek doesn't even "guarantee" that the Isles make the playoffs. I imagine the Pens, Rags, Caps, and other Atlantic teams next season won't be thinking the Isles are a better team than they are, even with Vanek.

(Vanek played the entire Philly series, and while he put up points on the PP (so did Gragnani), he was a nonfactor at ES, and, on the whole, didn't play all that well. I know this will blow your mind because you base every opinion on point totals. You're probably thinking of the Boston series, where he was playing well before he got injured.)

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But I guess if you just want to amass "top" prospects and never progress then by all means don't acquire an elite goal scorer who will be coveted by nearly every team. 2007 has nothing to do with Vanek, he is the only one who DID show up in our two playoffs since the co caps left.
Why are you having such a terrible time understanding that teams are not going to give up seven years of team control over elite prospects for a player signed for one more season? Giving up Strome for someone like Vanek is a shortsighted move for the Isles.

While there is no guarantee that Strome ends up being as good as Vanek, trading Strome's cheap, productive years for possibly one season of Vanek is incredibly stupid.

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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
I keep hearing one year left one year left yet several players who were impending UFAS got large returns (and many at the deadline with only a handful of regular season games + the playoffs to go)
Who? What elite prospect the ilk of Strome or Tarasenko was traded for a player with only one year left on his deal? In HF's recent rankings, Tarasenko is #1 and Strome is #11.

You're wrong, it's not happening and hasn't happened.

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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Thomas Vanek would be acquired with a full regular and playoff season and also be acquired at a possible salary/cap hit of ~4 million. Vanek will easily return an elite prospect. Ill bet anyone here anything they want he returns more then Pominville does.
Yet Pominville didn't return an elite prospect. We got a nice return in terms of quantity, but that's because Minnesota wasn't going to give up their top guys: Coyle, Granlund, Dumba, Brodin, et al.

I think Vanek will get a pretty good return. I'm not down on the return he'll bring as much as Jame is, but people tossing around names like Tarasenko and Strome are deluding themselves.

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If only teams could negotiate contracts mid season... think of how high Vanek's value would be!
Nobody is saying they can't. And I think teams will give up a pretty good package for Vanek under the assumption that they may be able to re-sign him. But unless it's to the Wild - where everyone knows he'd re-sign - a team is not giving up their #1 prospect/or top-15 overall prospect for him.

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05-19-2013, 02:52 PM
  #160
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Dipietro is owed $4.5M per year for 8 years. A buy out is $1.5M over 16 years---or $24M

I am not trading Vanek/Miller + $24M for Niederreiter. Buffalo would have to get alot more to justify the $24M cost.

Outside of Dipietro, the islanders really dont have any other bad contract. They use one of their 2 buyouts on him...end of story.

If they traded Miller or Vanek they would be able to get in return Niederreiter easily without having to eat $24M
Just an idea thrown out to the crowd.

BTW, if the Isles are on a budget, and money is important to them until they generate new revenue streams, $24M is something for them to consider. Sure, they could buy him out. It's not about the two buyouts for the Isles. It's about the money.

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05-19-2013, 02:56 PM
  #161
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I think Vanek will get a pretty good return. I'm not down on the return he'll bring as much as Jame is, but people tossing around names like Tarasenko and Strome are deluding themselves.
if he goes to NYI one of strome or niederreiter better come back if not next team up .

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05-19-2013, 03:03 PM
  #162
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if he goes to NYI one of strome or niederreiter better come back if not next team up .
There's a difference at this point. A little bit of the bloom is off the Nino rose. There were also some tense relations between Nino and the Isles. Trading Nino =/= trading Strome.

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05-19-2013, 03:10 PM
  #163
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Was it really a lack of offense that did the NYI's in? Would Vanek really help them reach the next level?

To me, they should be looking at acquiring a goaltender/stud D man.

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05-19-2013, 03:48 PM
  #164
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How long of a contract are you thinking?


He is a good secondary player (2nd winger/3rd line center) thats very versatile. Not sure what kind of offense he would bring to the table without Zetterberg though.
He'll be 34 at the end of a 5 year deal, so ideally 4, but either one isn't terrible.

35 points if Ennis or Grigorenko takes on sheltered minutes full-time and he turns into a checking-type C, 45-60 if he's deployed as a relied-upon offensive player, low 70s given an obscene on-ice shooting percentage.

Also, I keep forgetting about the cap curtailing spending a bit. I'm just trying to speculate what would 100% get the guy out of Detroit, the Leino/Laich/Cole contracts are all probably better precedents, but Buffalo is not a UFA destination right now.

My reasoning for a Flip addition regardless of the cost is predicated on Vanek/Miller trades putting us around floor (I'd still add him with those contracts on the books, but I'd obviously be more discerning about it), but I think his versatility is fundamentally important to a rebuild. He's an intelligent, possession player with a Cup ring who can legitimately play all three forward positions in any role. He can line up at RW and be a defensive safety-valve for Hodgson/Ennis/Grigorenko, free up their lines for offensive deployments on his own unit with Ott and Flynn, or center a scoring line. I really want to put our kids in the position to succeed, something we haven't really had the roster for in a few years.

And I don't get the Flip-Leino comparisons. Filppula can actually skate, play center, and be an asset defensively, and his offensive game is way, way, way less predictable than Leino's two moves. He'd be a better version of 2005-2010 Hecht (better offensively, more proven at center, healthier). Anyway, we should prolly take this over to roster-building.

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05-19-2013, 04:01 PM
  #165
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Nobody is saying they can't. And I think teams will give up a pretty good package for Vanek under the assumption that they may be able to re-sign him. But unless it's to the Wild - where everyone knows he'd re-sign - a team is not giving up their #1 prospect/or top-15 overall prospect for him.
While I agree with the rest of your post, I think TV is a near-lock to re-up for any perpetual playoff team with legitimate Cup aspirations. Everything he's said has pointed to Vanek wanting as many shots at Lord Stanley as he can afford above a payday.

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05-19-2013, 04:24 PM
  #166
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I'm not down on vanek's trade value, im just realistic.

Zip, I've made the same argument you just made... The VTVTs dont listen

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05-19-2013, 04:39 PM
  #167
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Nobody is saying they can't. And I think teams will give up a pretty good package for Vanek under the assumption that they may be able to re-sign him. But unless it's to the Wild - where everyone knows he'd re-sign - a team is not giving up their #1 prospect/or top-15 overall prospect for him.
I simply don't believe teams will be that conservative should the opportunity arise.

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05-19-2013, 05:05 PM
  #168
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There's a difference at this point. A little bit of the bloom is off the Nino rose. There were also some tense relations between Nino and the Isles. Trading Nino =/= trading Strome.
I don't think the Isles trade Strome either. Niederreiter is a fair target. Buffalo gets a good prospect instead of losing Vanek outright. The Isles might only get a year of Vanek, but dump DiPietro's contract without paying for it.

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05-19-2013, 05:11 PM
  #169
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He'll be 34 at the end of a 5 year deal, so ideally 4, but either one isn't terrible.

35 points if Ennis or Grigorenko takes on sheltered minutes full-time and he turns into a checking-type C, 45-60 if he's deployed as a relied-upon offensive player, low 70s given an obscene on-ice shooting percentage.

Also, I keep forgetting about the cap curtailing spending a bit. I'm just trying to speculate what would 100% get the guy out of Detroit, the Leino/Laich/Cole contracts are all probably better precedents, but Buffalo is not a UFA destination right now.

My reasoning for a Flip addition regardless of the cost is predicated on Vanek/Miller trades putting us around floor (I'd still add him with those contracts on the books, but I'd obviously be more discerning about it), but I think his versatility is fundamentally important to a rebuild. He's an intelligent, possession player with a Cup ring who can legitimately play all three forward positions in any role. He can line up at RW and be a defensive safety-valve for Hodgson/Ennis/Grigorenko, free up their lines for offensive deployments on his own unit with Ott and Flynn, or center a scoring line. I really want to put our kids in the position to succeed, something we haven't really had the roster for in a few years.

And I don't get the Flip-Leino comparisons. Filppula can actually skate, play center, and be an asset defensively, and his offensive game is way, way, way less predictable than Leino's two moves. He'd be a better version of 2005-2010 Hecht (better offensively, more proven at center, healthier). Anyway, we should prolly take this over to roster-building.
He would be a nice add at 4.5mil per (Pommer's cap hit) on a 4-5 year deal.


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05-19-2013, 05:40 PM
  #170
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Not with the way Nabokov tended goal they wouldn't have.
Come now, Nabby got torched but that was mostly the Pen's superior offense picking corners and trolling the PP, not goalie incompetence.

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05-19-2013, 05:43 PM
  #171
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You wouldn't give him an extra .8 if it A) guaranteed him coming here B) didn't really matter because we shipped off 13 million in salary in other deals?

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05-19-2013, 06:04 PM
  #172
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I don't understand why people think the Isles "need" to acquire Vanek. Giving up great young assets goes against what Snow has set in motion on Long Island. He's going with the young talent. They can (and will) continue to let it develop.

This idea that if they don't "capitalize" on their success this year by adding more proven talent to their roster is silly.

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05-19-2013, 06:07 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post

My reasoning for a Flip addition regardless of the cost is predicated on Vanek/Miller trades putting us around floor (I'd still add him with those contracts on the books, but I'd obviously be more discerning about it), but I think his versatility is fundamentally important to a rebuild. He's an intelligent, possession player with a Cup ring who can legitimately play all three forward positions in any role. He can line up at RW and be a defensive safety-valve for Hodgson/Ennis/Grigorenko, free up their lines for offensive deployments on his own unit with Ott and Flynn, or center a scoring line. I really want to put our kids in the position to succeed, something we haven't really had the roster for in a few years.

And I don't get the Flip-Leino comparisons. Filppula can actually skate, play center, and be an asset defensively, and his offensive game is way, way, way less predictable than Leino's two moves. He'd be a better version of 2005-2010 Hecht (better offensively, more proven at center, healthier). Anyway, we should prolly take this over to roster-building.

I don't see how/why buffalo signs hm if they trade Vanek and Miller.

The Sabres salary will be around the floor if both are dealt which is why thy can't buyout Leino this summer.

I'd would rather try and target a player who was 25-27.

I want the salary as low as possible and then look to make moves in 2014.

The only players id sgn as UFAs are cheaper 2-3 yr contract around $2M or so per for a Vet Dman and a 3rd/4th line Center.

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05-19-2013, 06:48 PM
  #174
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I don't understand why people think the Isles "need" to acquire Vanek. Giving up great young assets goes against what Snow has set in motion on Long Island. He's going with the young talent. They can (and will) continue to let it develop.

This idea that if they don't "capitalize" on their success this year by adding more proven talent to their roster is silly.
Especially since the move to Brooklyn is still a couple years away. I can see them saving their payroll ammo to make a big splash before they switch over to the new venue, rather than flipping youthful assets for marquee players as they piddle away in Nassau county.

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05-19-2013, 08:27 PM
  #175
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I don't see how/why buffalo signs hm if they trade Vanek and Miller.

The Sabres salary will be around the floor if both are dealt which is why thy can't buyout Leino this summer.

I'd would rather try and target a player who was 25-27.

I want the salary as low as possible and then look to make moves in 2014.

The only players id sgn as UFAs are cheaper 2-3 yr contract around $2M or so per for a Vet Dman and a 3rd/4th line Center.
I agree.

If they can (bigger question is do they want too) sign Flip, why are you trading Miller & Vanek? Signing Flip says we are not rebuilding. Still to this point I believe it's up to Miller & Vanek if they want out. Miller has to wonder where he can land, as there isn't a glaring hole anywhere. I'm still not sold on a total rebuild, as there is a lot in the pipeline, a lot of picks coming up, and talent on the roster. Couple moves, couple players make some strides, a new voice changes the stale attitude, and this team isn't that bad.

By couple moves, I mean a guy like Flip brought in (a real two way center), a top 4 dman, and goodbye to guys like Gerbe.

I can see why we would, and can live with it but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion that Miller & Vanek are gone.

Lets play "what if"

1. Draft day. Don't know how but Darcy pulls off moving up to grab Seth Jones or MacKinnon. Again, we have a ton of picks, some solid prospects, etc. don't know how but he pulls that off first.
2. July 1. He announces both Miller & Vanek to extensions. They are in the fold for 4-5 years. Rest of league knows ASAP, and with " the talk week" the player(s) you are targeting know. No rebuild. Retool to rest of league.
3. If you believe that Flip is the guy, sign him as ufa. If you are willing, you can fill the glaring two way center need.
4. Darcy has a trade lined up for another player.
5. Darcy realizes the bottom 6 really needed the attention, and he brings in two solid bottom sixes.
6. One of Griggs, girgs, armia, pysk, mcnabb, cantecanti, tropp, newly drafted, etc....one of them at least every year steps up.

Again, it's possible. Yes, very improbable but with the stockpile of prospects and picks he could retool very well.

Hey, it's a boring Sunday and I'm not watching the Sabres in the playoffs!!!!

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