HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)

John Tavares vs Jonathan Toews

View Poll Results: Tavares vs Toews
Tavares 144 54.34%
Toews 121 45.66%
Voters: 265. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-14-2013, 07:26 PM
  #101
LeHabsMan
Registered User
 
LeHabsMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Laval
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,759
vCash: 500
I am a huge fan of both players but I give this to Tavares.

Everyone here saying that Tavares hasnt had a point per game season...blah...blah...blah...Toews did better offensively... Ill just say that there is a reason he is a Hart candidate.

Even though he doesnt have the best numbers(not that just under a ppg is bad...), he creates some many chances, everytime he touches the puck something good happens. He makes his linemates better and carried the team.

He isnt nearly as bad defensively as some say, obviously not as good as Toews, but good.

Everyone mentions intangibles for Toews but bring Tavares down by looking at stats. I dont get it. I think defensive play is MASSIVELY overated on HF and most people here dont watch the players they are voting against.

LeHabsMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 08:11 PM
  #102
Chelios
Registered User
 
Chelios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeHabsMan View Post
I am a huge fan of both players but I give this to Tavares.

Everyone here saying that Tavares hasnt had a point per game season...blah...blah...blah...Toews did better offensively... Ill just say that there is a reason he is a Hart candidate.
Yeah there is a reason... he played on a mediocre team. That is literally the only reason he was nominated for the Hart over a guy like Toews.

Quote:
Even though he doesnt have the best numbers(not that just under a ppg is bad...), he creates some many chances, everytime he touches the puck something good happens. He makes his linemates better and carried the team.

He isnt nearly as bad defensively as some say, obviously not as good as Toews, but good.

Everyone mentions intangibles for Toews but bring Tavares down by looking at stats. I dont get it. I think defensive play is MASSIVELY overated on HF and most people here dont watch the players they are voting against.
Do you not see the irony in your post? You claim that people are hyping up Toews because of "intangibles" and yet your main argument for Tavares are vague qualitative descriptions like he "makes something good happen every time he touches the puck" and "makes his linemates better". Do you have any concrete evidence of this? No, you don't because those vague opinions are intangible.

Chelios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 08:35 PM
  #103
Sky04
Registered User
 
Sky04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,630
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Every single Tavares thread... you show up spewing hate. Seriously, did he get your sister pregnant or something? It's borderline creepy
Every thread? Nice overreaction.

I don't even say anything bad about him, I just don't overrate him. Unlike most Islander fans who get pissy when people don't think he's the best thing since Gretzky.

Sky04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 08:40 PM
  #104
VC
Registered User
 
VC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Vancouver Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,945
vCash: 500
Right here right now its Toews for sure. Going forward Tavares offensive upside is very intriguing. Long term I think Tavares will be the higher end player though they are/will both be top 10 and top 5 range.

VC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 08:40 PM
  #105
Bank Shot
Registered User
 
Bank Shot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,191
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate Kesler View Post
Tavares.

Right now it's pretty close. But do people realize Tavares is 3 years younger? Last time I checked, that's a pretty significant gap. Tavares will only get better.

Toews is blessed to play on a stacked (offensive) team. Just imagine Tavares on that type of team.
Every Chicago fan would probably be pining that they need a big strong two way center to get them over the hump and into Stanley Cup contention........

Bank Shot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #106
Chelios
Registered User
 
Chelios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VC View Post
Right here right now its Toews for sure. Going forward Tavares offensive upside is very intriguing. Long term I think Tavares will be the higher end player though they are/will both be top 10 and top 5 range.
See, this is a perfectly reasonable response. If you think, based on all the subjective opinions we have seen already in this thread, that Tavares has the higher upside offensively, than that is fine. I don't necessarily agree, but at least that is a reasonable speculation to make. But that doesn't change the fact that Tavares has simply not proven to be significantly better than Toews offensively thus far in his career. He just hasn't.

Chelios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 08:59 PM
  #107
Reclamation Project
Almost Cut My Hair
 
Reclamation Project's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 18,397
vCash: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Toews is pretty easily better than him right now. Similar offense with Toews being significantly better in every other aspect of the game. That begin said, Tavares is 2 1/2 years younger than Toews and probably has the potential to be the best player in the world outside of Crosby so I'll say it's him moving forward.
Dead on. I agree.

Reclamation Project is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 09:34 PM
  #108
here come the
Registered User
 
here come the's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago ----> PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,113
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeHabsMan View Post
I am a huge fan of both players but I give this to Tavares.

Everyone here saying that Tavares hasnt had a point per game season...blah...blah...blah...Toews did better offensively... Ill just say that there is a reason he is a Hart candidate.

Even though he doesnt have the best numbers(not that just under a ppg is bad...), he creates some many chances, everytime he touches the puck something good happens. He makes his linemates better and carried the team.

He isnt nearly as bad defensively as some say, obviously not as good as Toews, but good.

Everyone mentions intangibles for Toews but bring Tavares down by looking at stats. I dont get it. I think defensive play is MASSIVELY overated on HF and most people here dont watch the players they are voting against.
How is defensive play overrated? Also do you not think Toews made Saad better?

here come the is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 09:39 PM
  #109
Frankie41987
Registered User
 
Frankie41987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kings Park
Country: Tibet
Posts: 350
vCash: 500
i've only read this page and not the whole thread, but i really hope people aren't making this "PPG" argument considering THIS season was Toews only PPG season and he had 1 more point than Tavares. I am not at all commenting on who is better right now, but in comparing these two particular players a conclusion based on points alone isn't gonna cut it.

Frankie41987 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 09:43 PM
  #110
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
Tavares is the better hockey player in my opinion. The famous "intangibles" and defense (which is hard to measure) of Toews aren't enough to make up for the offense of Tavares.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
Anyone saying Toews is even close offensively has never watched Tavares play.
Yes, Toews scoring more points in fewer games is surely not a gap he can overcome with his def... what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Tavares by a little bit. He will probably be a top5 player in the league for a long time. He's got Crosby-level work ethic to fix the deficiencies in his game.
Tavares isn't even a top-five center. Using next year's alignment, he's not even a top five center in the CONFERENCE. And arguably not even a top-five player in his new division.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2013, 10:04 PM
  #111
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 32,990
vCash: 500
Close but Toews

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 01:39 PM
  #112
InjuredChoker
Registered User
 
InjuredChoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: LTIR or golf course
Posts: 17,854
vCash: 500
I'd have Toews.. for this season, playoff run.. Tavares is more skilled offensively, by a bit imo but Toews is better at basically everything else.. But Tavares has so much upside that it would be hard to say no if I could pick one of them to build a team.. esp. with their respective contract situations.

InjuredChoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 02:00 PM
  #113
Happy Hallidays
We are the 18%
 
Happy Hallidays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,169
vCash: 500
I'll take the Selke nominee, Gold Medal, Stanley Cup and Conn Smythe Winner for the Oilers. Both unreal players in my top 5 favourites in the league though.

Happy Hallidays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 02:04 PM
  #114
Quokka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 253
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
How about taking a few other things into consideration? Like how Toews plays significantly less PP and ES time. Or how he plays in a more defensive system. Or how he has to share the puck with some other great players and doesn't have the luxury of the entire offence running through him. Arguments can be made both ways, all we can do is look at their actual offensive production.
You had previously argued that you could look at Toews points in comparison to his linemates to prove that he was better than Tavares offensively. My point was that I don't think that argument holds much water because Chicago's defence is more involved in scoring plays which works against the linemate arguments (plus Hossa missed several games and would therefore have more points).

I don't agree that Chicago system is more defensive than the Islanders. Toews certainly plays a more defensive role than Tavares, but that does not prove he is better offensively than Tavares, which was what my post was about. You can also make the argument that Tavares plays more at ES and on the PP than Toews because he is better offensively.

Sure, you can look at the numbers in a vaccuum and say that because Toews had one more point than Tavares, therefore he is better offensively, but in my opinion that is a pretty weak argument.

I also said in my post I would take Toews over Tavares. I think he is the more well-rounded player. I just think that Tavares is slightly better than Toews offensively.

Quokka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 02:15 PM
  #115
frag2
Registered User
 
frag2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,392
vCash: 500
I like both players so not going to vote. I do see higher offensive upside in Tavares but overall, more balanced game out of Toews.

Tavares is getting a tad overrated like he's Crosby v2 by some here...

frag2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 02:17 PM
  #116
Groin Of Bates
Registered User
 
Groin Of Bates's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,840
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post

Tavares isn't even a top-five center. Using next year's alignment, he's not even a top five center in the CONFERENCE. And arguably not even a top-five player in his new division.
I'm sorry...what?

In the Eastern Conference currently:

Crosby
Malkin
Giroux
Stamkos

You could easily make a case for Tavares being a more complete player than Giroux and Stamkos, as well as being on par with them in terms of goal-scoring ability. Defensively, I think Tavares is better than Stamkos though, obviously, Stammer scores more goals.

I dont see how you can really make a case for Backstrom.

In that case, Tavares slots somewhere between 3-5 in the East as it stands. You add in Detroit next season and only Datsyuk is better, though you could argue Zetterberg. So, in the new realignment he still slots somewhere between 3-6.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.


Last edited by Groin Of Bates: 05-15-2013 at 02:26 PM.
Groin Of Bates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 02:19 PM
  #117
qc
Registered User
 
qc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Caphell, MA
Posts: 9,601
vCash: 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Tavares isn't even a top-five center. Using next year's alignment, he's not even a top five center in the CONFERENCE. And arguably not even a top-five player in his new division.
Wat?

Please display your EC center rankings.

qc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 02:25 PM
  #118
triggrman
HFBoards Sponsor
 
triggrman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 17,144
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quokka View Post
You had previously argued that you could look at Toews points in comparison to his linemates to prove that he was better than Tavares offensively. My point was that I don't think that argument holds much water because Chicago's defence is more involved in scoring plays which works against the linemate arguments (plus Hossa missed several games and would therefore have more points).

I don't agree that Chicago system is more defensive than the Islanders. Toews certainly plays a more defensive role than Tavares, but that does not prove he is better offensively than Tavares, which was what my post was about. You can also make the argument that Tavares plays more at ES and on the PP than Toews because he is better offensively.

Sure, you can look at the numbers in a vaccuum and say that because Toews had one more point than Tavares, therefore he is better offensively, but in my opinion that is a pretty weak argument.

I also said in my post I would take Toews over Tavares. I think he is the more well-rounded player. I just think that Tavares is slightly better than Toews offensively.
I have to disagree on the systems. Chicago's defensive system is much stricter than NYI. Watch both teams play, notice how much more open space there is in the Islanders defensive zone compared to the Hawks, it's actually pretty dramatic.

I like both players though, both are amazing talents. I mean they both suck and should be traded to the Predators for Guastad and Spaling.

triggrman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 02:46 PM
  #119
Quokka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 253
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I have to disagree on the systems. Chicago's defensive system is much stricter than NYI. Watch both teams play, notice how much more open space there is in the Islanders defensive zone compared to the Hawks, it's actually pretty dramatic.

I like both players though, both are amazing talents. I mean they both suck and should be traded to the Predators for Guastad and Spaling.
Fair enough. I'm still not sure a more defensive system can be used to support the position that Toews is better than Tavares offensively. I also think less space in the defensive zone is, to some extent, a reflection of the calibre of players on Chicago who are much better defensively as a whole regardless of the system.

Quokka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 03:09 PM
  #120
Chelios
Registered User
 
Chelios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quokka View Post
You had previously argued that you could look at Toews points in comparison to his linemates to prove that he was better than Tavares offensively. My point was that I don't think that argument holds much water because Chicago's defence is more involved in scoring plays which works against the linemate arguments (plus Hossa missed several games and would therefore have more points).
Thats not what I said at all. I have never said that Toews is significantly better than Tavares offensively. Never. In fact, I have been arguing that they are equal offensively this entire thread. The only reason I brought up Toews' points relative to his linemates, was because people continuously point to his quality of linemates. I have just been pointing out that if his linemates are so good, it makes the fact that he outscored them by so much even more impressive. Whether Chicago's defence is more involved or not has no effect on Toews' point production relative to his linemates since they are all out there with the same Dmen.

Quote:
I don't agree that Chicago system is more defensive than the Islanders.
You may not agree, but it is the truth. Chicago's system, especially for centres, is much more demanding defensively. There is a reason the Hawks were the top defensive team in the league this year

Quote:
Toews certainly plays a more defensive role than Tavares, but that does not prove he is better offensively than Tavares, which was what my post was about.
Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I have never been arguing that Toews is better than Tavares offensively.

Quote:
You can also make the argument that Tavares plays more at ES and on the PP than Toews because he is better offensively.
You could make that argument, sure. Just like you can make the argument that Tavares is the best option on a mediocre team, so he gets much more PP and ES time than he would on a contender.

Quote:
Sure, you can look at the numbers in a vaccuum and say that because Toews had one more point than Tavares, therefore he is better offensively, but in my opinion that is a pretty weak argument.
Yeah... still never made that argument.

Quote:
I also said in my post I would take Toews over Tavares. I think he is the more well-rounded player. I just think that Tavares is slightly better than Toews offensively.
If that is your opinion, that is fine. All I am saying, and all I have been saying all along, is that it is only an opinion and there is no concrete evidence thus far that suggests Tavares is significantly better offensively than Toews.

Chelios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 03:24 PM
  #121
Chicago Made Punk
You're Gonna Go Far
 
Chicago Made Punk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,174
vCash: 446
Toews and it's not too close.

Chicago Made Punk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 03:26 PM
  #122
Chicago Made Punk
You're Gonna Go Far
 
Chicago Made Punk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,174
vCash: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Tavares is approaching Forsbergian territory in term of overratedness. There's not a single legitimate argument that puts him over Toews at this point in time.
Yeah I've been saying this literally for a year now. It's absurd.

Chicago Made Punk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 03:40 PM
  #123
Quokka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 253
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Thats not what I said at all. I have never said that Toews is significantly better than Tavares offensively. Never. In fact, I have been arguing that they are equal offensively this entire thread. The only reason I brought up Toews' points relative to his linemates, was because people continuously point to his quality of linemates. I have just been pointing out that if his linemates are so good, it makes the fact that he outscored them by so much even more impressive. Whether Chicago's defence is more involved or not has no effect on Toews' point production relative to his linemates since they are all out there with the same Dmen.



You may not agree, but it is the truth. Chicago's system, especially for centres, is much more demanding defensively. There is a reason the Hawks were the top defensive team in the league this year



Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I have never been arguing that Toews is better than Tavares offensively.



You could make that argument, sure. Just like you can make the argument that Tavares is the best option on a mediocre team, so he gets much more PP and ES time than he would on a contender.



Yeah... still never made that argument.



If that is your opinion, that is fine. All I am saying, and all I have been saying all along, is that it is only an opinion and there is no concrete evidence thus far that suggests Tavares is significantly better offensively than Toews.
You are putting words in my mouth about putting words in your mouth!

I didn't say that you that you made any argument other than the one about linemates, which I disagreed with for the reasons I stated.

I agree Toews and Chicago as a whole are better defensively than Tavares and the Islanders as a whole.

You appeared to be vehemently disagreeing with posters who placed Tavares ahead of Toews offensively, though upon review it seems to be only with posters who said Tavares is significantly better than Toews offensively. I agree that they are close and I simply threw in my opinion on why I personally would rank Tavares ahead of Toews offensively.

Anyways, go Blackhawks!

Quokka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 03:51 PM
  #124
Chelios
Registered User
 
Chelios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,547
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quokka View Post
You are putting words in my mouth about putting words in your mouth!

I didn't say that you that you made any argument other than the one about linemates, which I disagreed with for the reasons I stated.

I agree Toews and Chicago as a whole are better defensively than Tavares and the Islanders as a whole.

You appeared to be vehemently disagreeing with posters who placed Tavares ahead of Toews offensively, though upon review it seems to be only with posters who said Tavares is significantly better than Toews offensively. I agree that they are close and I simply threw in my opinion on why I personally would rank Tavares ahead of Toews offensively.

Anyways, go Blackhawks!
Fair enough.

Chelios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2013, 05:21 PM
  #125
LeHabsMan
Registered User
 
LeHabsMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Laval
Country: Italy
Posts: 1,759
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yes, Toews scoring more points in fewer games is surely not a gap he can overcome with his def... what?



Tavares isn't even a top-five center. Using next year's alignment, he's not even a top five center in the CONFERENCE. And arguably not even a top-five player in his new division.
Please give me your top 5 centres in the division.

LeHabsMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:02 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.