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Mikhail Grabovski...where from here?

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05-14-2013, 11:05 PM
  #101
The Winter Soldier
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Originally Posted by agropop View Post
...and you repeat them yet again.. You're hilarious dude
I take it, you don't have an answer. You could have just said you didn't.

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05-14-2013, 11:07 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
No denying the recent play, The facts show, Bozak's play is still ascending, while Grabo's play is on a steady decline.
Decline from his best year so far? Maybe. I really don't see him having another year this bad though. Grabovski will be a 20 goal scorer for at least a few more seasons (even if they're not consecutive) and if Bozak continues to get better then I say good on him. I'm not trying to take anything away from Bozak by saying Grabovski is not as bad as this year makes him seem.

It's similar to the way you felt when Grabovski had his stand out year. You were trying to tell people he wasn't as good as his stats made him look. Right now he's had a career low and I'm trying to suggest that he is not as bad as his stats make him look. His true value going forward is probably somewhere in between our assessments.

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05-14-2013, 11:08 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by BeLeaf1331 View Post
Did you copy and paste your post? Cause it's the same crap you've posted for the last 10 pages.



This, hockey is more then just stats. When grabo was flying, gaining the zone and getting pressure, it changes the momentum of the game.
You don't have to copy and paste when you know your hockey, and those are Grabo's stats his last 65 games with us, -26, 21 points all in 65 games.

It's not hard.

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05-14-2013, 11:10 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by GrabsOverHabs View Post
Decline from his best year so far? Maybe. I really don't see him having another year this bad though. Grabovski will be a 20 goal scorer for at least a few more seasons (even if they're not consecutive) and if Bozak continues to get better then I say good on him. I'm not trying to take anything away from Bozak by saying Grabovski is not as bad as this year makes him seem.

It's similar to the way you felt when Grabovski had his stand out year. You were trying to tell people he wasn't as good as his stats made him look. Right now he's had a career low and I'm trying to suggest that he is not as bad as his stats make him look. His true value going forward is probably somewhere in between our assessments.
Decline is very likely, he hasn't been good since the 10 games to go mark of last season, Grabo is 30 next January, he's not going to suddenly have a career year. How many 30+ year olds are better at this age than they were at 24-27?

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05-14-2013, 11:11 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Decline is very likely, he hasn't been good since since the 10 games left last season, Grabo is 30 next January, he's not going to suddenly have a career year. How many 30+ year olds are better at this age than they were at 25-27?
Markus Naslund to name one off the top of my head.

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05-14-2013, 11:14 PM
  #106
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Any argument that uses only stats (point and +/- at that) to justify itself, is lost at sea to begin with.

Nobody in and around the game of hockey does this, and for good reason. Some just don't get it, at all.

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05-14-2013, 11:14 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrabsOverHabs View Post
Markus Naslund to name one off the top of my head.
Grabo is going to do a 1 off in Markus Naslund? Really, are we going on the Hope tour, totally ignoring his last 65 games and the amount of toll his play has taken on the energizer bunny. The Duracell batteries have past the best before date.

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05-14-2013, 11:19 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Grabo is going to do a 1 off in Markus Naslund? Really, are we going on the Hope tour, totally ignoring his last 65 games and the amount of toll his play has taken on the energizer bunny. The Duracell batteries have past the best before date.
I was answering the question. Markus Naslund is certainly not the only one and while Grabovski's numbers were good two years ago, they're not impossible to break/match. You were the one that said 58 points was nothing to write home about.

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05-14-2013, 11:38 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Decline is very likely, he hasn't been good since the 10 games to go mark of last season, Grabo is 30 next January, he's not going to suddenly have a career year. How many 30+ year olds are better at this age than they were at 24-27?
Off the top of my head - guys who had career years when they were 29+.

Radim Vrbata
Brian Campbell
Saku Koivu
Pascal Dupuis
Chris Kunitz
Michael Ryder
Mike Ribiero
Mikael Samuelsson
Mike Fisher
Daniel Sedin
Shane Doan

Not disagreeing with your assessment of Grabovski, just pointing out it's unfair to write off a player as soon as they turn 30.

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05-14-2013, 11:42 PM
  #110
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Give Grabovski a playmaking winger and he'll produce a lot more. I think putting him on the first line in between JVR and Kessel enhance his offensive production. The fact that he makes room for others, likes to shoot the puck, I can see it working. His potential is a lot higher than 50 pts and Burke knew this fact. You keep players like that, because they're not easy to acquire.

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05-15-2013, 12:11 AM
  #111
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I don't get why we're pooping on Grabbo so much. Unless we have somebody capable of replacing him I don't see why we get rid of him. Obviously we don't have anyone capable of replacing him because he played a lot at critical times. Maybe his production doesn't equal his pay under a shrunken cap next year, but that's hardly reason to create a hole in your lineup. None of the UFA's are any better.

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05-15-2013, 12:41 AM
  #112
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look i really admire grabo for the fact in the boston series he was hit a hundred times and put on his ass and came right up and went back into the corners BUT
how many hits did he have in the series. Also how many points did he have.

Grabo skates one hundred miles an hour with the puck and thats where it dies. He doesnt have any finish(he had lots of opportunities) he doesnt distribute the puck to his wingers.

Grabo gets the puck at center, goes one hundred miles an hour into Boston's end. Puck goes in the corner,Grabo gets knocked on his ass. gets up and goes after the puck. repeat every shift.

Bozak,Kadri,Mclement,colborne makes him expendable

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05-15-2013, 02:29 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by notdoneyet View Post
look i really admire grabo for the fact in the boston series he was hit a hundred times and put on his ass and came right up and went back into the corners BUT
how many hits did he have in the series. Also how many points did he have.

Grabo skates one hundred miles an hour with the puck and thats where it dies. He doesnt have any finish(he had lots of opportunities) he doesnt distribute the puck to his wingers.

Grabo gets the puck at center, goes one hundred miles an hour into Boston's end. Puck goes in the corner,Grabo gets knocked on his ass. gets up and goes after the puck. repeat every shift.

Bozak,Kadri,Mclement,colborne makes him expendable
He used his wingers all the time in the playoffs, just not off the rush very often. When they had established possession in the other teams zone he moved the puck fairly well. Jagr was the one that stood out to me as someone that doesn't distribute. Also to answer your question about the hits, he had 18 which was in the top 10 for our team. You just don't see them in the telecast as often because they aren't crushing hits, he just finishes his check.

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05-15-2013, 07:46 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I'll ask again, if you can answer, how do you explain:

Last 10 games last year, Grabo 3 points -6

Conversely Last 10 games last year for Bozak 7 points -3 (without Lupul)

Grabo this season 16 points, 48 games, -10

Grabo playoffs 2 points, 7 games, -10.

No advanced crap stat is big enough to excuse play as bad as Grabo has played his last 65 games with us.
I have explained it, I think about 3 times now. However, you have dismissed advanced stats outright in assisting in making a more informed opinion.

We all watch the games, what is hard to watch for during games is getting an idea how a player is used in detail. That is what advance stats are for, they allow you to analyze exactly what situation a player is used in.

Context is hugely important in understanding why someone is producing as they are. In Grabbo's case, compared to previous years, the context of his play is very different and is a huge reason why he has had a drop off in points total.

If Carlyle begins to use Grabbo as he had during the playoffs during a full length regular season, I believe you will see (in that larger sample size) Grabbo returning to form. However, if Carlyle uses Grabbo as he was before (due to poor coaching decisisons) then Grabbo is the most overpaid 3/4C in the NHL.

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05-15-2013, 07:50 AM
  #115
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We can only hope that Carlyle allows Colborne his opportunity, and plays him as the defensice center, allowing Grabo to begin the year with JVR and Kulemin.

That line controlled games.

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05-15-2013, 08:08 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Flavour View Post
Nikolai Kulemin 7 GP 1 point -9
Mikko Koivu 5GP 0 points -6
Ryan Suter 5GP 0 points -5
Raphael Diaz & Josh Gorges 5 GP 0 points -4

Bad players all of them!!!

Roman Josi 10 GP 0 points -4 what a chump he was last year! Good thing Nashville dumped that punk!

John-Michael Liles 4 games played 0 points +4 now that's a player I'd trade for Suter! Maybe Douglas Murray's 2G 1A in 7GP, slick offensive defenseman there!

A guide to successfully trolling on hfboards: Only use dumb simplistic stats to support your inane argument. Repeat it endlessly to tire anyone who bothers to do a better analysis, if wilfully ignorant dismissiveness doesn't immediately work. If all else fails, simply claim you're right because you watch the games and/or post more.

Here's what's going to happen this offseason. Komisarek will get bought out and Grabovski will stay, because Nonis knows that even if Grabo's contract is a huge anchor, he can use the second compliance buyout on him next season. So better start saving up some unjustified vitriol for the next year cause you're going to need a steady supply.
Great post. Can be applied to 99% of these tunnel visioned "FANS"

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05-15-2013, 08:10 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
We can only hope that Carlyle allows Colborne his opportunity, and plays him as the defensice center, allowing Grabo to begin the year with JVR and Kulemin.

That line controlled games.
I think that'd be my ideal scenario as well. Kadri-Grabovski-Colborne-McClement down the middle doesn't look too shabby.

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05-15-2013, 08:13 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Flavour View Post
Nikolai Kulemin 7 GP 1 point -9
Mikko Koivu 5GP 0 points -6
Ryan Suter 5GP 0 points -5
Raphael Diaz & Josh Gorges 5 GP 0 points -4

Bad players all of them!!!

Roman Josi 10 GP 0 points -4 what a chump he was last year! Good thing Nashville dumped that punk!

John-Michael Liles 4 games played 0 points +4 now that's a player I'd trade for Suter! Maybe Douglas Murray's 2G 1A in 7GP, slick offensive defenseman there!

A guide to successfully trolling on hfboards: Only use dumb simplistic stats to support your inane argument. Repeat it endlessly to tire anyone who bothers to do a better analysis, if wilfully ignorant dismissiveness doesn't immediately work. If all else fails, simply claim you're right because you watch the games and/or post more.

Here's what's going to happen this offseason. Komisarek will get bought out and Grabovski will stay, because Nonis knows that even if Grabo's contract is a huge anchor, he can use the second compliance buyout on him next season. So better start saving up some unjustified vitriol for the next year cause you're going to need a steady supply.
Best thing I've read in this thread.

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05-15-2013, 08:16 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You don't have to copy and paste when you know your hockey, and those are Grabo's stats his last 65 games with us, -26, 21 points all in 65 games.

It's not hard.
You obviously don't know hockey. +- is a crapshoot. There are 11 other guys on the ice you know... how about posting toi/g and quality of linemates. That is more indicitive of a players skill.Attacking people for not addressing your +- CONCERN while not replying to buddys post who compared other great players falling off the last 20 games or so... full of fallicys bruva

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05-15-2013, 08:46 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Flavour View Post
Nikolai Kulemin 7 GP 1 point -9
Mikko Koivu 5GP 0 points -6
Ryan Suter 5GP 0 points -5
Raphael Diaz & Josh Gorges 5 GP 0 points -4

Bad players all of them!!!

Roman Josi 10 GP 0 points -4 what a chump he was last year! Good thing Nashville dumped that punk!

John-Michael Liles 4 games played 0 points +4 now that's a player I'd trade for Suter! Maybe Douglas Murray's 2G 1A in 7GP, slick offensive defenseman there!

A guide to successfully trolling on hfboards: Only use dumb simplistic stats to support your inane argument. Repeat it endlessly to tire anyone who bothers to do a better analysis, if wilfully ignorant dismissiveness doesn't immediately work. If all else fails, simply claim you're right because you watch the games and/or post more.

Here's what's going to happen this offseason. Komisarek will get bought out and Grabovski will stay, because Nonis knows that even if Grabo's contract is a huge anchor, he can use the second compliance buyout on him next season. So better start saving up some unjustified vitriol for the next year cause you're going to need a steady supply.
Why don't you compare players that actually played in the same series, wouldn't this be more accurate? Obcourse it would be.

David Krejci - 13 points +9
Bergeron - 4 points +2
Campbell - 1 point +1
Kadri - 4 points +5
Bozak - 2 points Even
Grabovoski - 2 points -10


Who had the least productive series of all these players? Very clear who was outplayed by a wide margin, Who is the weakest link and is also the highest paid at 5.5M...#84

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05-15-2013, 09:23 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Decline is very likely, he hasn't been good since the 10 games to go mark of last season, Grabo is 30 next January, he's not going to suddenly have a career year. How many 30+ year olds are better at this age than they were at 24-27?
Eric Cole just had one at age 34 the other year. Course he followed up with a wonderful dud the next but that's another story.
Is Grabo significantly slower this year? Has his skills clearly degraded? Or did he just have an off year? If it's the latter then it's reasonable to expect him to bounce back. Maybe not to his career year production but bounce back regardless. I wouldn't worry too much about a one year off year. If he continues into next year...then start worrying.

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05-15-2013, 09:34 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Why don't you compare players that actually played in the same series, wouldn't this be more accurate? Obcourse it would be.

David Krejci - 13 points +9
Bergeron - 4 points +2
Campbell - 1 point +1
Kadri - 4 points +5
Bozak - 2 points Even
Grabovoski - 2 points -10


Who had the least productive series of all these players? Very clear who was outplayed by a wide margin, Who is the weakest link and is also the highest paid at 5.5M...#84
Once again, context is important. I have provided ample evidence to explain Grabbo's production (see previous posts). Kadri and Bozak did not face any where close to the kind of competition that Grabbo did, they both played with superior line-mates throughout the series too.

+/- is a faulty stat, and should not be seriously used to judge a players worth.

You keep going back to your simple arguments and don't even bother to argue against any of the more advance analysis out there that I have posted.

You can't just say "Oh, advance stats suck" and then proceed to say "you guys have no explanation for why Grabbo had a -10 and 2 points and that is why we should buy him out, etc."

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05-15-2013, 09:35 AM
  #123
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I'd really like to hold onto Grabo, but that contract is horrible...

He will probably be moved.

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05-15-2013, 09:38 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post
I think that'd be my ideal scenario as well. Kadri-Grabovski-Colborne-McClement down the middle doesn't look too shabby.
I would be more than comfortable moving forward with this.

The focus this season should be on getting a top pairing D-man to play with Phaneuf.

After a very long time, I am finally comfortable with a majority of our line up.

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05-15-2013, 09:42 AM
  #125
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Haven't read the thread but for me
Yes grabo is overpaid and he struggled to find his place this year but the way he showed up and fought in the playoffs means a lot.

Playoff experience is exactly that. You find out who you can can't on and IMO he's one of those guys.

I'd keep him around before over paying Bozak

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