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Old
05-15-2005, 12:06 PM
  #26
Fletch
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The question was..

when was Norstrom ever solid on both sides...and the answer is really never. He was and is a very good defensive defenseman. There's not much offense to his game. I'd love to Tyutin to be as good defensively as Norstrom, but of course have my doubts since Norstrom was much more aggressive and more phyisical than Tyutin. Tyutin looks to be a nice defenseman. Not great offensively and not great defensively, but could be all-around good.

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05-15-2005, 12:14 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klingsor
The Teddy Roosevelt of Hockey:

"Play softly and carry a big stick."
LoL, gotta love it when you can use good ol' TR in a hockey discussion...

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05-15-2005, 04:51 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
Don't worry I have it on good authority that they will all suck!
Really? Kondratiev got a pretty good writeup from THN. But your authority may be right.

Whom would that be again?

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05-16-2005, 02:13 PM
  #29
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But I thought you said Sather hasn't done anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus
Really? Kondratiev got a pretty good writeup from THN. But your authority may be right.

Whom would that be again?
Are you now saying that Kondratiev is a player? He's played even less NHL games then Tyutin and we all know that you've given Glen credit for him even though he still unproven.

Based on that logic it would mean that Lampman (Lampman's played more NHl games than Konrdratiev has), Murray, Balej are also to be considered as +'s for Slats.

So the cats out of tha bag. THN should be the next GM & President of the NYR replacing Slats!

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05-16-2005, 03:03 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
Are you now saying that Kondratiev is a player? He's played even less NHL games then Tyutin and we all know that you've given Glen credit for him even though he still unproven.

Based on that logic it would mean that Lampman (Lampman's played more NHl games than Konrdratiev has), Murray, Balej are also to be considered as +'s for Slats.

So the cats out of tha bag. THN should be the next GM & President of the NYR replacing Slats!
Ummm.... He's saying Kondratiev is a nice prospect I believe. He's not an actual success until he proves himself... Murray and Balej aren't necessarily pluses - I personally consider them both under Kondratiev. If every prospect is a plus, then here's to Sven Helfenstein.

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05-16-2005, 03:12 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007
You're absolutely right: the Norström trade probably was the worst trade of the Neil Smith era and the Rangers were insane to give him up (especially for what we got back ).

Fact is, though, that Norström is not solid at both ends of the ice. He's a terrific defenceman, but you'll never get any offence out of him. Tyutin will provide much more two-way play.

I don't want offense from him. Sometimes, you need a reliable D-man who can play physical, keeping opposing forwards honest around our net. Norstrom can knock guys down and stay back. Not every D-man has to be offensive.

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Old
05-16-2005, 03:35 PM
  #32
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Don't we wish?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnaby
Ummm.... He's saying Kondratiev is a nice prospect I believe. He's not an actual success until he proves himself... Murray and Balej aren't necessarily pluses - I personally consider them both under Kondratiev. If every prospect is a plus, then here's to Sven Helfenstein.
You are taking out of context what I am saying and using a very narrow definition.
I am not saying they will be super stars, all I am saying is that they should make the grade, play in the NHL and see how they pan out. It's a process and along the way many fail and some surprise you.

In the same vein he said that Sather gets zero credit because none of them have done anything for the NYR's. He said that, not me. If you say that a prospect is an asset you are admiting that someone made a good decision. Should not that person who made that decision be given credit? Seems appropiate to me.

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05-16-2005, 03:38 PM
  #33
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Seems like I'm not the only one counting their chickens!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnaby
Johnson- ? Vet/ Current or future prospect
Tyutin - Kondratiev
Baranka-Liffiton/Lampman/Taylor/Pock

...could be the foundation of one hell of a defense...
I don't disagree and I think if 1/2 turnout that we will be much improved.
By the way, do you happen to know who is responsible for those guys being in our organization?

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05-16-2005, 03:57 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovy274Hart
I don't want offense from him. Sometimes, you need a reliable D-man who can play physical, keeping opposing forwards honest around our net. Norstrom can knock guys down and stay back. Not every D-man has to be offensive.
Yeah, Norström can do that, and he's very good at it.

You're looking at the wrong player if you want Toots to do that, though. He's got a physical edge, but I don't think he'll ever be the type of player who's famous for his aggressiveness or laying people out. His game is based on sound positioning, laying on the body when the opportunity arises. He's very solid, very smart. I expect him to be an excellent defensive defenceman who, with experience, will make few mistakes.

I also expect him to chip in with offence (which I do want from him, because eventually he'll be on the top pairing). Being able to pinch, join the rush, and shoot from open ice are all skills that Tyutin has and likes to use on occasion. He's even shown that he can take opposing players on one-on-one (picture Norström doing that!). You can't ask him not to do it, because that's just limiting his contribution to the team and hindering his abilities.

Even if I compare Toots to Teppo Numminen, we should allow him to be himself. Our expectations of him should be that he plays his game to its fullest potential.

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05-16-2005, 04:11 PM
  #35
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Atlanta...

an asset is worthless unless you do something with it, correct? So either one of two things need to happen with the asset, either 1) he turns out to be a good player, which we won't know that outcome for some time, or 2) he's traded for another asset, whose outcome may or not be immediately known. Technically a guy with a first round pick has an asset. That asset will decline or appreciate in value. It's worthless if it's not monetized. These assets we speak of have not yet been monetized, and are either only worth what someone else is willing to pay, or the paper their written on.

As for Sather getting credit - it's so tough to give someone credit who should not currently have a job. How many GMs have gone through as many personnel decisions as Sather, and have spent as much money in the same time period, and still has a job? I'm not saying his picks won't work out, because I hope they do because I'm getting sick of watching crap, but at the same time, I don't understand how the man has a job.

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Old
05-16-2005, 04:54 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus
Really? Kondratiev got a pretty good writeup from THN. But your authority may be right.

Whom would that be again?
I think he meant you.

This is a pull-over from the other discussion. He still believes that you think no one other than Tyutin will become anything.

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Old
05-16-2005, 09:24 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
Are you now saying that Kondratiev is a player?
No I'm saying what I've always said: he's a prospect. If he ever gets to be a player, I'll say Sather did good work in getting him.

As for the rest, I'll simply re-post from the other thread:

Poor AR! You missed the point and the joke.

The point was that I've never said Sather didn't acquire prospects, although you seem to be under the delusion that I've said exactly that.

The closing comment was the punchline indicating that you like to tout prospects or shoot them down, yet you never seem to be able to back it up with anything other than your own opinion. I didn't think the joke was all that subtle, but I'll go slower next time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
So the cats out of tha bag. THN should be the next GM & President of the NYR replacing Slats!
Without doubt there are several guys on THN's staff I would take in a heartbeat over Sather. Do you really want to make it your business to try to denigrate that publication? That seems to be where you're going.

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05-17-2005, 12:15 PM
  #38
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Aha! Did someone mention ME?

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Old
05-17-2005, 12:36 PM
  #39
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I agree totally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
an asset is worthless unless you do something with it, correct? So either one of two things need to happen with the asset, either 1) he turns out to be a good player, which we won't know that outcome for some time, or 2) he's traded for another asset, whose outcome may or not be immediately known. Technically a guy with a first round pick has an asset. That asset will decline or appreciate in value. It's worthless if it's not monetized. These assets we speak of have not yet been monetized, and are either only worth what someone else is willing to pay, or the paper their written on.

As for Sather getting credit - it's so tough to give someone credit who should not currently have a job. How many GMs have gone through as many personnel decisions as Sather, and have spent as much money in the same time period, and still has a job? I'm not saying his picks won't work out, because I hope they do because I'm getting sick of watching crap, but at the same time, I don't understand how the man has a job.
But saying that. The man has done some good things. To refuse to acknowldge that wrong and that is the point I have been making. I certainly don't love Sather.
But he has doen things that have fundamentally changed the way the NYR's now go about acquiring assets and how they research players before drafting them.
If you lokk honestly at the type of player they have brought intot the organization either via the draft or trade, you will see not only a plan, but the formation of a core of players who the majority of whom have certain similar elements to their game and how they play the game. That is a positive step forward.
The NHL squad is a compeltely different agenda and story. To combine the two is stupid.

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05-17-2005, 12:40 PM
  #40
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Please if your "inside sources" are THN staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus
No I'm saying what I've always said: he's a prospect. If he ever gets to be a player, I'll say Sather did good work in getting him.

As for the rest, I'll simply re-post from the other thread:

Poor AR! You missed the point and the joke.

The point was that I've never said Sather didn't acquire prospects, although you seem to be under the delusion that I've said exactly that.

The closing comment was the punchline indicating that you like to tout prospects or shoot them down, yet you never seem to be able to back it up with anything other than your own opinion. I didn't think the joke was all that subtle, but I'll go slower next time.



Without doubt there are several guys on THN's staff I would take in a heartbeat over Sather. Do you really want to make it your business to try to denigrate that publication? That seems to be where you're going.

They've been wrong more times than Sather has!

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Old
05-17-2005, 02:52 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007
Yeah, Norström can do that, and he's very good at it.

You're looking at the wrong player if you want Toots to do that, though. He's got a physical edge, but I don't think he'll ever be the type of player who's famous for his aggressiveness or laying people out. His game is based on sound positioning, laying on the body when the opportunity arises. He's very solid, very smart. I expect him to be an excellent defensive defenceman who, with experience, will make few mistakes.

I also expect him to chip in with offence (which I do want from him, because eventually he'll be on the top pairing). Being able to pinch, join the rush, and shoot from open ice are all skills that Tyutin has and likes to use on occasion. He's even shown that he can take opposing players on one-on-one (picture Norström doing that!). You can't ask him not to do it, because that's just limiting his contribution to the team and hindering his abilities.

Even if I compare Toots to Teppo Numminen, we should allow him to be himself. Our expectations of him should be that he plays his game to its fullest potential.

I wasn't comparing them. I realize Toot's style is different from Matty's. I just wish they had kept him here. He was the kind of D-man the team lacked.

Hopefully Jake Taylor or David Liftion or maybe Nate Guenin can become that kind of rock'em sock'em D-man in the future.


I agree with your take on Fedor. I don't see a lot of offense because that's not his game. He won't always take chances. He plays it smart.


I see:


30-35 pts max and a decent +/- rating plus around 60+ PIM

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05-17-2005, 02:55 PM
  #42
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I will admit Atlanta...

that Sather has done some 'good' things. Unfortunately in four years the bad's far outweighed the good, and it'll be some time if we know how good the good is, unfortunately. The future now looks better than it's been in a while (which actually doesn't say much), although the present is as murky as ever. But the point is that any other GM in any other organization in any other sport most likely would've been fired by now. I just don't know why the Rangers are any different.

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Old
05-17-2005, 03:00 PM
  #43
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I'll say that Sather has done some things right but they are few and far between. He seems to have turned the helm of this ship but was it his own doing or out of fear that his time had run out doing things his own way? He's also made attempts that at one time or another looked to be good moves (i.e., getting Lindros and seeing the Rags in first place for a month and a half...that was a short-lived bliss). However, I'll go on record as saying that for a guy that still has a job, and has had one for four years...he's made twice the amount of poor judgements and bad calls as anyone of his peers in the same time frame.

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05-17-2005, 03:28 PM
  #44
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I'll disagree on Lindros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I'll say that Sather has done some things right but they are few and far between. He seems to have turned the helm of this ship but was it his own doing or out of fear that his time had run out doing things his own way? He's also made attempts that at one time or another looked to be good moves (i.e., getting Lindros and seeing the Rags in first place for a month and a half...that was a short-lived bliss). However, I'll go on record as saying that for a guy that still has a job, and has had one for four years...he's made twice the amount of poor judgements and bad calls as anyone of his peers in the same time frame.
While I admire his courage and his commitment as a NYR while he was here, it clearly was a poor choice of an asset to acquire. He was beyond being considered damaged goods. It was a poor alternative to being shut out on the jagr deal because Sather tried to hold up Patrick even more.

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05-17-2005, 05:15 PM
  #45
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Why don't you guys all sit back and have a good cup of hot cocoa?

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05-17-2005, 05:20 PM
  #46
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Sure Sven...

pour some caffeine into these guys and get them more wired.

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Old
05-17-2005, 11:36 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
pour some caffeine into these guys and get them more wired.
Will do!

The Swiss Miss never misses!

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05-17-2005, 11:39 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLANTARANGER
Please if your "inside sources" are THN staff
They've been wrong more times than Sather has!
THN gets its prospect reports from the Central Scouting Bureau, NHL scouts, GMs, and directors of personnel, so if you wish to laugh at who's getting things wrong, feel free to laugh at the adminsitrative arms of the teams. (Please note that Ranger scouts, GMs and Personnel people are very definitely some of those surveyed, so feel free to spread some of your laughter to Sather and Co.)

Ultimately I'm not sure how much more "inside" or professional one can get than to ask those who do this for a living, but maybe they should be asking you. You seem to have an amazing eye for young talent, spotting things that pro scouts don't see. (I just wish you'd share some of this.)

In any case, since you apparently hold The Hockey News in contempt for its coverage of prospects, care to name a better, more reliable publication? Maybe even a publication that will back up your ludicrous statement that the Rangers have 39 bona fide prospects?

No? Thought not.

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05-17-2005, 11:44 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovy274Hart
I wasn't comparing them. I realize Toot's style is different from Matty's. I just wish they had kept him here. He was the kind of D-man the team lacked.

Hopefully Jake Taylor or David Liftion or maybe Nate Guenin can become that kind of rock'em sock'em D-man in the future.


I agree with your take on Fedor. I don't see a lot of offense because that's not his game. He won't always take chances. He plays it smart.


I see:


30-35 pts max and a decent +/- rating plus around 60+ PIM
I see, I misunderstood, sorry. I agree entirely with you on Norström, though I think (hope) we'll be pleasantly surprised by the number of points Toots will be able to put up while still playing a solid, defence-first style.

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05-18-2005, 07:53 AM
  #50
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i'll say it again...i think tyutin has the outright talent to put up a good number of points if he focused exclusively on that...but he generally plays a more all around game so he doesn't end up putting up as many points as he could. he doesn't have the talent of a young brian leetch or chris pronger or something to play both end of the ice superbly and put up big numbers...but he does have more offensive talent than a lot of defenseman i believe.

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