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Old
05-19-2013, 05:46 PM
  #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It was more like a "worst case scenario" what it would cost. We could likely get 1-1.5 mil absorbed by Buffalo, and get him re-signed for around the same as the Sedins.
trading your future for a player that may not stay long term is how you become the Calgary Flames

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Old
05-19-2013, 05:47 PM
  #552
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
trading your future for a player that may not stay long term is how you become the Calgary Flames
Why wouldn't he stay long-term?

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05-19-2013, 05:50 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Why wouldn't he stay long-term?
there is no guarentee either way

why would be stay here instead of testing FA

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05-19-2013, 05:53 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Ill never understand why people think $1.2m for Tanev is cheap or wishful thinking.

10 points in 102 games playing 3rd tier competition.

The only way he gets over $2m is if somebody offersheets him or he gives up UFA years.

Good player guys, but lets stop overrating him.
I'm with you, I think he get's 2 x 1.25M or 3 x 1.5M

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Old
05-19-2013, 05:54 PM
  #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
there is no guarentee either way

why would be stay here instead of testing FA
Well, we could afford to keep him up to 7 mil. He's already gotten his major payout, he's likely looking for a cup.

We could always work out the framework for an extension with him before trading for him.

With that core, we are likely contenders for the next 3 years easily, and during the next three years we can draft some more prospects for when our window starts to close.

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05-19-2013, 05:57 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Well, we could afford to keep him up to 7 mil. He's already gotten his major payout, he's likely looking for a cup.

We could always work out the framework for an extension with him before trading for him.

With that core, we are likely contenders for the next 3 years easily, and during the next three years we can draft some more prospects for when our window starts to close.
In the next three years if we are in fact contenders for all of them then we end up with 3 late firsts and are in the same situation prospect wise as we are now, but our core is 3 years older. We need to strengthen our pool, not destroy it

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Old
05-19-2013, 06:02 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
In the next three years if we are in fact contenders for all of them then we end up with 3 late firsts and are in the same situation prospect wise as we are now, but our core is 3 years older. We need to strengthen our pool, not destroy it
What's the point of a prospect pool if we're contending? If we decide in 3 years we've done as much damage as we can do, then we can start trading off Edler, Kesler, Vanek, etc for futures that would be just as good as if we continue as a fringe playoff team and an average prospect pool, except with a much better chance to win the cup.

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05-19-2013, 06:06 PM
  #558
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Didn't Gillis make a point about developing talent and retaining picks in the press conference? So you think then he's going to trade our top prospect and a first for an overrated and overpaid winger?

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05-19-2013, 06:10 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by just22 View Post
Didn't Gillis make a point about developing talent and retaining picks in the press conference? So you think then he's going to trade our top prospect and a first for an overrated and overpaid winger?
That's why this is the armchair GM thread, we don't have to care what Gillis thinks.

Although I don't really care whether it's via UFA or trade, if we don't acquire a legit top-6 forward, then this team won't go anywhere next postseason either.

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05-19-2013, 06:31 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
That's why this is the armchair GM thread, we don't have to care what Gillis thinks.

Although I don't really care whether it's via UFA or trade, if we don't acquire a legit top-6 forward, then this team won't go anywhere next postseason either.
This team has too many holes to fill to become a contender next year. Adding only one top six winger won't put them over the top.

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05-19-2013, 06:36 PM
  #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just22 View Post
This team has too many holes to fill to become a contender next year. Adding only one top six winger won't put them over the top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Tell me how many teams have a better top-4 forwards than Henrik, Daniel, Kesler, and Vanek? How many have a better top-4 defense group than Edler, Hamhuis, Garrison and Bieksa? And how many have better goaltending than us?

Can you answer these questions and honestly say that we're still not a contender?

It's certainly worth trying one more push with this core if we can add a legitimate top-6 forward. If we fail again then I'll be all for blowing it up.
....

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Old
05-19-2013, 06:38 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
....
Boston, Pittsburgh and Chicago to start

probably LA as well

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Old
05-19-2013, 06:43 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
Boston, Pittsburgh and Chicago to start

probably LA as well
Pittsburgh has a better offense. We have much better defense and goaltending than them.

We'd have better offense than Boston and defense/goaltending is close to a wash.

Our offense with Chicago would be a wash, probably defense too, and goaltending is in our favour.

Our offense and defense would both be better than LA's and they might have an edge in goaltending.

*Again, assuming we added Vanek.

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05-19-2013, 06:47 PM
  #564
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I think Boston, Chicago, and LA all have the defensive advantage on us solely because they have franchise-level defensemen.

Pittsburgh has a clear edge offensively and Chicago as well.

LA and Boston are debatable offensively

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05-19-2013, 06:52 PM
  #565
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Even if we add Vanek our team has depth issues.

During the '11 run we rolled 3 solid lines. This year we had 7 players who could be considered top 9 material during our sweep.

Look at teams like Boston and LA who roll 4 lines and wear down opponents. It's going to be nearly impossible to add impact players with a dwindling cap and NTCs everywhere.

Our only hope is having a great bottom 6 that can hopefully provide secondary scoring and chew up minutes.

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Old
05-19-2013, 06:55 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
I think Boston, Chicago, and LA all have the defensive advantage on us solely because they have franchise-level defensemen.

Pittsburgh has a clear edge offensively and Chicago as well.

LA and Boston are debatable offensively
We have 4 defensemen capable of playing top-pairing minutes. If we have Hamhuis-Edler as our first pairing, Garrison-Bieksa would be miles better than Leddy-Hjalmarsson, Seidenberg-Boychuk, or Scuderi-Greene. So I think calling it a wash is fair.(not 100% sure on those D pairings, but the point's the same)

And offensively:

Henrik ~ Toews
Daniel ~ Hossa
Vanek =< Kane
Kesler >= Sharp

Henrik ~ Kopitar
Daniel > Carter
Kesler >/= Richards
Vanek >> Brown

Henrik > Bergeron
Daniel > Seguin
Kesler > Krejci
Vanek > Lucic


Last edited by Vankiller Whale: 05-19-2013 at 07:06 PM.
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Old
05-19-2013, 07:06 PM
  #567
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You have to take into account everything when comparing forwards and D

I take Chicago's, Boston's, and Pittsburgh's top 4 forwards over ours

Toews>Hank
Kane>Daniel
Hossa>Kesler
Sharp<Vanek

Bergeron=Henrik
Seguin>Daniel
Krecji=Kesler
Marchand<Vanek

Boston is about even, but having Horton and Lucic against Burrows and Hansen gives them a nice edge

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Old
05-19-2013, 07:15 PM
  #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
You have to take into account everything when comparing forwards and D

I take Chicago's, Boston's, and Pittsburgh's top 4 forwards over ours

Toews>Hank
Kane>Daniel
Hossa>Kesler
Sharp<Vanek

Bergeron=Henrik
Seguin>Daniel
Krecji=Kesler
Marchand<Vanek

Boston is about even, but having Horton and Lucic against Burrows and Hansen gives them a nice edge
How the heck do you take Seguin over Daniel or put Bergeron on the same level as Henrik?

I mean, I suppose if we underrate our players that much, then it would make sense to go into a rebuild.

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Old
05-19-2013, 07:18 PM
  #569
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
How the heck do you take Seguin over Daniel or put Bergeron on the same level as Henrik?

I mean, I suppose if we underrate our players that much, then it would make sense to go into a rebuild.
That Seguin/Bergeron/Marchand line was dominant all year, even if they didn't put up amazing numbers. They were one of the best lines in the league

Daniel had a terrible year for him, and Seguin is only getting better

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05-19-2013, 07:20 PM
  #570
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The problem isn't really the top end of the roster anyway. Could the Canucks win with Henrik putting up 14 points in his last 26 playoff games like Toews has? Or their 2nd and 4th highest regular season scorers combining for 4 points in 7 games?

Chicago is winning because they're very good at everything Vancouver is terrible at in the playoffs:

-their #3 and #4 forwards are leading the charge with Sharp and Hossa putting up 10 and 7 points respectively in 7 games.

-they're getting excellent production from their 3rd and 4th lines. The Canucks 4th line didn't generate a single goal in their 25 playoff games in 10-11 and their 3rd line produced only about 4 or 5. The Blackhawks have already gotten 8 goals from their bottom 6 in 7 games.

-they're very disciplined. They've only been shorthanded about 3.5 times per game. Vancouver has never been that disciplined in the playoffs.

-when they do take penalties their PK has been lights out. It's currently 24 for 24 in this year's playoffs


If the Canucks had that kind of depth scoring, discipline, and effective PKing then the Sedins' production would be enough to allow the team be more successful.

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Old
05-19-2013, 07:22 PM
  #571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
That Seguin/Bergeron/Marchand line was dominant all year, even if they didn't put up amazing numbers. They were one of the best lines in the league
Based on what?

Quote:
Daniel had a terrible year for him, and Seguin is only getting better
Seguin was even worse, and was even more of a playoff no-show than Daniel too.

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05-19-2013, 07:49 PM
  #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What's the point of a prospect pool if we're contending? If we decide in 3 years we've done as much damage as we can do, then we can start trading off Edler, Kesler, Vanek, etc for futures that would be just as good as if we continue as a fringe playoff team and an average prospect pool, except with a much better chance to win the cup.
Because there's two different approaches you can take to contending. One is to go all in for a year or two, spend all you're future assets to acquire immediate short term talent and stack the deck going all in for a single run or two. Second is to obtain a winning team but continue to keep an emphasis on drafting and developing prospects, the goal being to make the playoffs repeatedly over a greater number of years hoping that in one of those things will come together just right to win the Stanley Cup.

Over the past 10+ years we've seen both types of teams win, so you can go either way with it. Personally I'm a fan of the latter method, and judging by his time running the team so is Gillis.

For the former method there are a few teams with success there that you can consider special circumstances. Pittsburgh can go and trade away all their prospects in any given year because they'll always have that core of Crosby/Malkin which is a recipe for success regardless of who the other 18 players are. Chicago went all in over a two years span but with their best players being young and just emerging it was obvious they would quickly bounce back from any deficit.

Personally I don't like this idea for Vancouver because if we swing and miss there isn't going to be a quick bounce back, and when you fall to the bottom there's no guarantee that you can climb back out of it any time soon. Worst case scenario you end up like Toronto of the past 10 years... I'd rather just keep on making the playoffs from year to year ideally like Detroit does.

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Old
05-19-2013, 07:50 PM
  #573
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It's not about just comparing talent.

It's finding the right mix throughout.

Balance, depth and chemistry.

New Jersey sucks and they made it to he Finals last year. Because they came together not because they had the 4 best forwards in the east.

Having Kovalchuk didn't hurt though.

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Old
05-19-2013, 07:55 PM
  #574
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Based on what?



Seguin was even worse, and was even more of a playoff no-show than Daniel too.
I think Seguin had a better playoffs from what I've seen of his, he was never the defensive hazards the Sedins were, Sedins were really bad with not only not having an impact offensively but making dumb plays that end with the puck in the back of our net, this was the worse I've ever seen them.

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05-19-2013, 08:01 PM
  #575
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I think Seguin had a better playoffs from what I've seen of his, he was never the defensive hazards the Sedins were, Sedins were really bad with not only had having an impact offensively but making dumb plays that end with the puck in the back of our net, this was the worse I've ever seen them.
Tyler Seguin: 1 assist in 9 games, -2 on a team that is 6-3 in W/L
Henrik Sedin: 3 assists in 4 games, +0 on a team that is 0-4 in W/L
Daniel Sedin: 3 assists in 4 games, -2 on a team that is 0-4 in W/L

Yeah, no. Seguin has been terrible these playoffs. In fact, his spot on the 2nd line was finally handed over to Jagr and he got demoted to the 3rd line.

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