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Old
05-19-2013, 07:03 PM
  #576
Diamonddog01
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Even if we add Vanek our team has depth issues.

During the '11 run we rolled 3 solid lines. This year we had 7 players who could be considered top 9 material during our sweep.

Look at teams like Boston and LA who roll 4 lines and wear down opponents. It's going to be nearly impossible to add impact players with a dwindling cap and NTCs everywhere.

Our only hope is having a great bottom 6 that can hopefully provide secondary scoring and chew up minutes.
This is what so many seem to keep forgetting. The last time the team made any effort to have a respectable bottom 6 was the Malhotra signing in the 2010 offseason. Unfortunately for all parties his eye-injury created some issues - Gillis wanted to give him a chance to return, and had Hodgson has a potential alternate for the 3rd line C if Malhotra couldn't return to form. The 4th line was still fairly weak for much of the last two years however.

This past season there were no excuses - Gillis knew what he had and still did nothing regarding the bottom 6.

It is essential we have a 4th line that can play 8 minutes or so, and a 3rd line that could play anywhere from 12 - 15 minutes. Such an underrated and important element of any team.

Personally I'm in favour of keeping Lappy as I don't see any better options out there, and adding Hendricks (at 1.5) to the 4th. Along with Weise that could be a respectable 4th line.

The 3rd is desperately lacking a true 3rd line C (I'm in favour of a shutdown C, but a two-way player along the lines of Cullen would be OK as well) to play with Higgins and Hansen.

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05-19-2013, 07:06 PM
  #577
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I thought our 4th line was respectable this year, problem is we were chasing the game in the playoffs so they didn't get a chance.

With a lead they could have been very effective. We trailed so they played 4 minutes or less per game.

Hard to win, when you're not rolling 4 lines.

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05-19-2013, 07:06 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by iFan View Post
I think Seguin had a better playoffs from what I've seen of his, he was never the defensive hazards the Sedins were, Sedins were really bad with not only not having an impact offensively but making dumb plays that end with the puck in the back of our net, this was the worse I've ever seen them.
you're posting from 2003 right?

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05-19-2013, 07:12 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Tyler Seguin: 1 assist in 9 games, -2 on a team that is 6-3 in W/L
Henrik Sedin: 3 assists in 4 games, +0 on a team that is 0-4 in W/L
Daniel Sedin: 3 assists in 4 games, -2 on a team that is 0-4 in W/L

Yeah, no. Seguin has been terrible these playoffs. In fact, his spot on the 2nd line was finally handed over to Jagr and he got demoted to the 3rd line.
Put stats aside and watch the 2/3 of them, Sedins were horrible, they were worse than Seguin, Seguin just didn't show up, he's still young, Sedins didn't show up and were costing us games with dumb plays and their vets and leaders, big big difference here.

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05-19-2013, 07:15 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by iFan View Post
Put stats aside and watch the 2/3 of them, Sedins were horrible, they were worse than Seguin, Seguin just didn't show up, he's still young, Sedins didn't show up and were costing us games with dumb plays and their vets and leaders, big big difference here.
well, we both watched them and came to fundamentally different conclusions from you, plus the stats side with us, so uh, i guess have fun in your little fantasy land

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Old
05-19-2013, 07:16 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
We have 4 defensemen capable of playing top-pairing minutes. If we have Hamhuis-Edler as our first pairing, Garrison-Bieksa would be miles better than Leddy-Hjalmarsson, Seidenberg-Boychuk, or Scuderi-Greene. So I think calling it a wash is fair.(not 100% sure on those D pairings, but the point's the same)

And offensively:

Henrik ~ Toews
Daniel ~ Hossa
Vanek =< Kane
Kesler >= Sharp

Henrik ~ Kopitar
Daniel > Carter
Kesler >/= Richards
Vanek >> Brown

Henrik > Bergeron
Daniel > Seguin
Kesler > Krejci
Vanek > Lucic
Sorry but this is why it is useless to do this kind of analysis. The Player A > Player B is a superficial analysis of how a forward core works. It ignores roles, chemistry, durability, and elevation in playoffs. The worst is your Boston analysis. According to this, even if we DON'T add Vanek, our top 3 is better than Boston's top 3 or LAs top 3 and almost on par with Chicagod top 3.

Yet our top 3 scored a (pro-rated for Kesler) 35 goals while Chicago scored 46 (Toews, Hossa, Sharp), LA scored 48 (Kopitar, Carter, Richards), and Boston scored 36 (Krejci, Seguin, Bergeron). And this ignores Marchand in Boston (top scorer) and the fact that LAs and Boston's core are bigger and better defensively while all 3 teams cores have been much better in recent playoffs.

But somehow you put these players side-by-side, throw out a few superficial ">" comparisons and arrive at the totally incorrect conclusion that our offence is better than these teams.

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05-19-2013, 07:21 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
It is essential we have a 4th line that can play 8 minutes or so, and a 3rd line that could play anywhere from 12 - 15 minutes. Such an underrated and important element of any team.

Personally I'm in favour of keeping Lappy as I don't see any better options out there, and adding Hendricks (at 1.5) to the 4th. Along with Weise that could be a respectable 4th line.

The 3rd is desperately lacking a true 3rd line C (I'm in favour of a shutdown C, but a two-way player along the lines of Cullen would be OK as well) to play with Higgins and Hansen.
Very good points.

I agree with an acquisition like Hendricks. That would be an astute move.

Left handed, can play centre or wing. Plays 2+ min on the PK and wins 57% of faceoffs.

Put him on the LW with a right handed C (Lapierre or an uprgrade like Boyd Gordon) and the Canucks have a 4th line that is a premiere shutdown line.

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Old
05-19-2013, 07:22 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by iFan View Post
Put stats aside and watch the 2/3 of them, Sedins were horrible, they were worse than Seguin, Seguin just didn't show up, he's still young, Sedins didn't show up and were costing us games with dumb plays and their vets and leaders, big big difference here.
I did watch them. The Sedins were decent offensively. They didn't meet expectations, but they were decent. Seguin did zilch to help Boston move on. Henrik had one bone-headed pass, but other than that, there's not much you can pin on the Sedins, apart from them not generating enough offense, although it was still a lot more than Seguin.

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05-19-2013, 07:23 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
well, we both watched them and came to fundamentally different conclusions from you, plus the stats side with us, so uh, i guess have fun in your little fantasy land
Not really Danny was a -2 with 3 pts in 4 games and Seguin was a -2 in 9 games with 1 point, so this tells me that Seguin was actually on par with Danny and that Sedin was costing the team defensively. Sedins were horrible, they were brutal in the playoffs they cost us game 4 and game 2 so half the games we played in the post season Sedins were a big reason why we lost half of them, that's from our vets and leaders not from some kid still learning the game.

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Old
05-19-2013, 07:26 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
Sorry but this is why it is useless to do this kind of analysis. The Player A > Player B is a superficial analysis of how a forward core works. It ignores roles, chemistry, durability, and elevation in playoffs. The worst is your Boston analysis. According to this, even if we DON'T add Vanek, our top 3 is better than Boston's top 3 or LAs top 3 and almost on par with Chicagod top 3.

Yet our top 3 scored a (pro-rated for Kesler) 35 goals while Chicago scored 46 (Toews, Hossa, Sharp), LA scored 48 (Kopitar, Carter, Richards), and Boston scored 36 (Krejci, Seguin, Bergeron). And this ignores Marchand in Boston (top scorer) and the fact that LAs and Boston's core are bigger and better defensively while all 3 teams cores have been much better in recent playoffs.

But somehow you put these players side-by-side, throw out a few superficial ">" comparisons and arrive at the totally incorrect conclusion that our offence is better than these teams.
Uh...I did make all those comparisons provided we added Vanek. Using this year's stats(which are a very small sample size due to the shortened season) mean absolutely nothing, nor does our prior playoff success, without Vanek in the lineup.

I know our offense sucks now. I'm saying if we added Vanek our offense would probably be top-3 in the league.

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Old
05-19-2013, 08:04 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Uh...I did make all those comparisons provided we added Vanek. Using this year's stats(which are a very small sample size due to the shortened season) mean absolutely nothing, nor does our prior playoff success, without Vanek in the lineup.

I know our offense sucks now. I'm saying if we added Vanek our offense would probably be top-3 in the league.
Did you read what i wrote? I left out the player you directly compared Vanek to and focused on the comparisons to existing Canucks. Based on your "Henrik = Toews = Kopitar > Bergeron" analysis, which is flat out wrong. those 3 players are all better players than Hank THIS year, last year, and likely every year going forward. What does having Vanek have to do with such a ridiculously bad analysis in the first place? The point is, without Vanek our top 3 players are nowhere near those teams top 3s and adding Vanek doesn't make our top 4 equal to their top 4 either. Would our offence be *better* with Vanek? Of course. Would it put us at the top of the league? Not even close..

People also need to stop using "sample size" to excuse poor performance. That is a statistical term that allows an inference to be made about a larger group, such as in surveys. Henrik's play this season is his play this season. It isn't a sample of anything. It *is* his performance, not a sample of his performance. So discounting this season just because it is 34 games short makes no sense. Was Henrik better than Kopitar last year either? Nope. Toews? Nope. And at 33 it's not like he and Daniel are getting better each year. With or without Vanek, our offence is nowhere near the top teams, which is why retooling makes more sense than going "all in" next year ...

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Old
05-19-2013, 08:17 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by CanaFan View Post
Did you read what i wrote? I left out the player you directly compared Vanek to and focused on the comparisons to existing Canucks. Based on your "Henrik = Toews = Kopitar > Bergeron" analysis, which is flat out wrong. those 3 players are all better players than Hank THIS year, last year, and likely every year going forward. What does having Vanek have to do with such a ridiculously bad analysis in the first place? The point is, without Vanek our top 3 players are nowhere near those teams top 3s and adding Vanek doesn't make our top 4 equal to their top 4 either. Would our offence be *better* with Vanek? Of course. Would it put us at the top of the league? Not even close..

People also need to stop using "sample size" to excuse poor performance. That is a statistical term that allows an inference to be made about a larger group, such as in surveys. Henrik's play this season is his play this season. It isn't a sample of anything. It *is* his performance, not a sample of his performance. So discounting this season just because it is 34 games short makes no sense. Was Henrik better than Kopitar last year either? Nope. Toews? Nope. And at 33 it's not like he and Daniel are getting better each year. With or without Vanek, our offence is nowhere near the top teams, which is why retooling makes more sense than going "all in" next year ...
Neither Kopitar nor Bergeron were better than Henrik this year. Toews was a bit better, but I don't think the difference was that much.

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Old
05-19-2013, 08:22 PM
  #588
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Daniel needs to step up, he's clearly regressed.

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Old
05-19-2013, 08:23 PM
  #589
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Daniel needs to step up, he's clearly regressed.
This is true. I'm hoping Daniel can rebound, and that last season was a fluke.

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05-19-2013, 08:24 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What's the point of a prospect pool if we're contending? If we decide in 3 years we've done as much damage as we can do, then we can start trading off Edler, Kesler, Vanek, etc for futures that would be just as good as if we continue as a fringe playoff team and an average prospect pool, except with a much better chance to win the cup.
This presumes they all retain the value they have today. Kesler has undergone numerous injuries and unless he has a resurgence, it can be argued teams would be hesitant to pay the farm for a three year older Kesler. Vanek could wind down as he hts 33-34 and who knows what Edler does. Toronto is a prime example of a team with your philosophy and they have been irrelevant for the better half of a decade. I would rather chance what we have in Jensen, Gaunce and Kassin before shipping them all out for a hope and prayer. Were one to be dealt (say Gaunce or our first) for a less high tier player. I might be on board, but to dismantle our already bleak prospect pool is establishing a future of perpetual mediocrity.

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05-19-2013, 08:35 PM
  #591
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Would anyone be down for signing Dainius Zubrus to a one year contract for a our third line centre? He's 34, so I definitely wouldn't sign him for more than two. He was on pace for 35 points over 82 games, and he's 6'5 225lbs. That's some darn good size.

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05-19-2013, 08:35 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
This presumes they all retain the value they have today. Kesler has undergone numerous injuries and unless he has a resurgence, it can be argued teams would be hesitant to pay the farm for a three year older Kesler. Vanek could wind down as he hts 33-34 and who knows what Edler does. Toronto is a prime example of a team with your philosophy and they have been irrelevant for the better half of a decade. I would rather chance what we have in Jensen, Gaunce and Kassin before shipping them all out for a hope and prayer. Were one to be dealt (say Gaunce or our first) for a less high tier player. I might be on board, but to dismantle our already bleak prospect pool is establishing a future of perpetual mediocrity.
If Kesler and Edler will be done within the next 3 years, then why bother keeping them at all?

Assuming Kesler/Vanek will suck at age 32, or Edler at 30, is ridiculous pessimism.

I don't get why people are making comparisons to Calgary or Toronto, when they've done nothing of the sort. They are teams that gradually declined over the years. I'm advocating we go all in now, and in a few years when it looks like our window has closed, sell off our older core players to jump start a rebuild.

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05-19-2013, 08:42 PM
  #593
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Neither Kopitar nor Bergeron were better than Henrik this year. Toews was a bit better, but I don't think the difference was that much.
Kopitar is same points with a bigger body and better all-around game. 2 years ago I give you Henrik over him but not today.

Bergeron is a dozen points less but you get Selke-level play. That makes him a more valuable all around player.

Toews doubled Henriks goals so I'd say he is a fair bit ahead of Henrik.

All 3 players are also entering their prime while Henrik is exiting his so the disparity will only grow. Same for Daniel and I am not even sure *what* we have in Kesler any more, what with his barrage of injuries.

I like Vanek, I really do, but there is no way I mortgage this teams future on a 1-2 year window to win the cup ...

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05-19-2013, 08:47 PM
  #594
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Would anyone be down for signing Dainius Zubrus to a one year contract for a our third line centre? He's 34, so I definitely wouldn't sign him for more than two. He was on pace for 35 points over 82 games, and he's 6'5 225lbs. That's some darn good size.
I definitely would. However, I think NJD have every bit of interest in re-signing him.

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05-19-2013, 08:48 PM
  #595
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If Kesler and Edler will be done within the next 3 years, then why bother keeping them at all?

Assuming Kesler/Vanek will suck at age 32, or Edler at 30, is ridiculous pessimism.

I don't get why people are making comparisons to Calgary or Toronto, when they've done nothing of the sort. They are teams that gradually declined over the years. I'm advocating we go all in now, and in a few years when it looks like our window has closed, sell off our older core players to jump start a rebuild.
I never said they would be done, nor did I speculate they would suck. Those are your words, not mine. I said they might not command the same value they do today, especially Kesler given his injury history. How many teams are going to pay premium prices for players 32 and up? Some might but not enough to rebuild a whole roster. We would flatline to the point of Edmonton, which was my point. You do not rely on a "what if" of that significance.

The comparison is made because Toronto had a similar mindset; mortgage the future to make a run now. They had an excellent roster with Sundin back in the day and sold everything to make frequent runs. The results speak for themselves. Meanwhile, Detroit stayed the course and their young players are looking to make an impact as the veterans wind down.

If Vanek came as a sign and trade (which never happens in the NHL) I might be able to come aboard, but we are gambling everything on a potential walk away. That is terrible asset management. Perhaps I am merely high on Jensen and would loathe to see him flourish elsewhere whilst we look foolish for selling our future.

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05-19-2013, 08:48 PM
  #596
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Neither Kopitar nor Bergeron were better than Henrik this year. Toews was a bit better, but I don't think the difference was that much.
Your talking points and scoring wise, Toews and Bergeron are miles ahead of Sedins when it comes to defensive part of the game and both were key players to winning the cup, I'd take those guys over the Sedins. If those guys aren't scoring they can be shutting down other teams top lines, Sedin don't have that skill and its one you need to win.

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05-19-2013, 08:51 PM
  #597
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I'm advocating we go all in now, and in a few years when it looks like our window has closed, sell off our older core players to jump start a rebuild.
That's pretty much what the Flames attempted to do.

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05-19-2013, 08:51 PM
  #598
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Kopitar is same points with a bigger body and better all-around game. 2 years ago I give you Henrik over him but not today.

Bergeron is a dozen points less but you get Selke-level play. That makes him a more valuable all around player.

Toews doubled Henriks goals so I'd say he is a fair bit ahead of Henrik.

All 3 players are also entering their prime while Henrik is exiting his so the disparity will only grow. Same for Daniel and I am not even sure *what* we have in Kesler any more, what with his barrage of injuries.

I like Vanek, I really do, but there is no way I mortgage this teams future on a 1-2 year window to win the cup ...
Very rarely does being better "all-round" make you a better player than a dynamite offensive player. And Henrik is the very definition of a pass-first player, so comparing his goal totals to Toews is asinine.

Would you rather have Kovalchuk or Backes? To me the answer is obviously Kovalchuk, but I guess some people really prefer their forwards play a strong defensive game than a strong offensive game. I guess I disagree. Henrik is no slouch defensively either.(neither is Kovalchuk as well)

Kesler has been great this season. As was Henrik. Daniel was iffy, granted.

But what use is keeping an average prospect pool? We have no blue chippers or anyone likely to be franchise players. By the timeany of them(if any of them) become impact players, the rest of our core will have declined enough to make it not worth the while, and we'll only end up worse.

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05-19-2013, 08:56 PM
  #599
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That's pretty much what the Flames attempted to do.
Failed badly though in their attempts to find a center to compliment their one big gun - Iginla.

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05-19-2013, 09:03 PM
  #600
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I never said they would be done, nor did I speculate they would suck. Those are your words, not mine. I said they might not command the same value they do today, especially Kesler given his injury history. How many teams are going to pay premium prices for players 32 and up? Some might but not enough to rebuild a whole roster. We would flatline to the point of Edmonton, which was my point. You do not rely on a "what if" of that significance.

The comparison is made because Toronto had a similar mindset; mortgage the future to make a run now. They had an excellent roster with Sundin back in the day and sold everything to make frequent runs. The results speak for themselves. Meanwhile, Detroit stayed the course and their young players are looking to make an impact as the veterans wind down.

If Vanek came as a sign and trade (which never happens in the NHL) I might be able to come aboard, but we are gambling everything on a potential walk away. That is terrible asset management. Perhaps I am merely high on Jensen and would loathe to see him flourish elsewhere whilst we look foolish for selling our future.
Look at how much Pominville and Gaborik garnered. I think those are reasonable comparisons to Kesler and Gaborik in a few years.

I am fully confident we could re-sign Vanek as well. Also, Toronto is where they are now(and by now I mean before this year) because Burke didn't want to do a full rebuild. He kept trying to speed it up a bit, and ended up just spinning his wheels in the snow.

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