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Old
05-21-2013, 01:31 AM
  #776
Verviticus
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well

toronto's success is entirely in spite of carlyle, anaheim isn't really a good team and los angeles added jeff carter, lost jack johnson. thats like +2 good players right there

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05-21-2013, 01:38 AM
  #777
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well

toronto's success is entirely in spite of carlyle, anaheim isn't really a good team and los angeles added jeff carter, lost jack johnson. thats like +2 good players right there
I really hope that is sarcasm. I like to rag on Toronto too but Carlyle has been huge for them; borderline Jack Adams worthy. When he can get Kessel to play a two-way game and not be completely hopeless at it. That is talent.

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05-21-2013, 01:44 AM
  #778
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no. carlyle is ****ing hopeless and the only reason the leafs won games in the playoffs was because worthless AHL quality defencemen got hurt, forcing him to use jake gardiner

when your coach is literally sitting your most impactful defenceman because he needs to play mark fraser, he's Really Bad

edit: that needs to be extra double bold. he was not using jake gardiner until an injury forced him to

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05-21-2013, 02:31 AM
  #779
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Bourne,

You said if we start falling its time for a rebuild? Well aren't we clearly a team that's falling?

Since the lockout we first played the blues and swept them to lose to the Hawks, so we make it to round 2 and its was acceptable, a great season for us

Next season we beat LA to lose to the Hawks again, again we're disappointed but still overall good year and team is clearly on the raise

Then we all have fun, this team is a beast and tears the league apart and by far the best team in the league, the team has this fire to win and plays hard every game shows heart and a will to win, we just put on a great show with showing off this teams talent, we get far in the playoffs all the way to game 7 of the scf in the heart breaking loss.

Things get ugly team was a sleep all year all our stats drop scoring dries up and we fall back to counting on our D and goaltending to win the season, get into the playoffs and scoring becomes a major issue and we're out in the 1st round but we win one game

Now this season, team drops even more, Wild were giving us a run as nw champs, again scoring is the issue again and in the playoffs we drop from winning a game to getting swept

This is a clear team on the decline, you can see our players and team stats raise from the lockout to the 2011 year where it tops out, now you start to see this team and players stats decline and getting worse each year, how isn't this a team on the decline? We don't have any help coming from within our system, this is how this team is more like the flames than wings, flames made it to he scf as well and kept chasing the cup with a aged core and nothi in the system till it dried up and had nothing left, we're not there yet but give it 3/4 more years and we could very easily be there by then

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05-21-2013, 02:36 AM
  #780
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Originally Posted by iFan View Post
Bourne,This is a clear team on the decline, you can see our players and team stats raise from the lockout to the 2011 year where it tops out, now you start to see this team and players stats decline and getting worse each year, how isn't this a team on the decline? We don't have any help coming from within our system, this is how this team is more like the flames than wings, flames made it to he scf as well and kept chasing the cup with a aged core and nothi in the system till it dried up and had nothing left, we're not there yet but give it 3/4 more years and we could very easily be there by then
Hasn't Calgary missed the playoffs a bunch of years in a row? How is that the same as us?

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05-21-2013, 02:42 AM
  #781
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I just checked and yes, they have missed the playoffs 4 years in a row now. So if we're going to be the same as Calgary in 3-4 years like you say, we should have definitely missed the playoffs this year.

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05-21-2013, 02:45 AM
  #782
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Also since the lockout only the Pens have lost in the scf to come back to win the cup, that's not very good odds and given the fact Crosby, Malkin and all those young stars were well... young and had the time and still growing their skills makes them pretty unique

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05-21-2013, 02:48 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I really hope that is sarcasm. I like to rag on Toronto too but Carlyle has been huge for them; borderline Jack Adams worthy. When he can get Kessel to play a two-way game and not be completely hopeless at it. That is talent.
Kessel was playing a solid two way game under Wilson too, the only thing Carlyle has really done is improve the PK while worsening the PP and added a nice system to prevent the D from getting exposed. Other than that he's held back guys like Macarthur, Grabovski, KUlemin and Gardiner.

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05-21-2013, 02:48 AM
  #784
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Originally Posted by iFan View Post
This is a clear team on the decline, you can see our players and team stats raise from the lockout to the 2011 year where it tops out, now you start to see this team and players stats decline and getting worse each year, how isn't this a team on the decline? We don't have any help coming from within our system, this is how this team is more like the flames than wings, flames made it to he scf as well and kept chasing the cup with a aged core and nothi in the system till it dried up and had nothing left, we're not there yet but give it 3/4 more years and we could very easily be there by then
What you cite a decline, I simply view as inconsistency. We had Kesler out for a lengthily period of time, lost in the playoffs due to injury and have played a completely mismanaged brand of hockey. That equates to a year and change of questionable hockey. And that is frankly, an unfair assessment. The majority of our roster did not play throughout the lockout. Despite these consistency qualms, we continue to remain in the elite discussion. People claim we devour our division, and while we do, our record against the west remains strong.

On the aforementioned basis alone, you do not disband a whole team near scorched earth style, especially when the most obvious decision has not been made; fire the coach. How foolish would we look if we brought in Boucher or Eakins but jettisoned Kesler, Edler and Burrows, only to see the Sedins drag the team to another playoff berth or a ninth place finish? It would be the epitome of incompetent management and we would be rightly ridiculed as joked.

Therefore, subtle changes to the roster and AV's departure is logical approach. Should failure persist, then you consider selling off the core but never before. Calgary had a borderline Cinderella run to their cup. We are a legitimate contender that needs tweeting, nothing more.

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05-21-2013, 02:55 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
What you cite a decline, I simply view as inconsistency. We had Kesler out for a lengthily period of time, lost in the playoffs due to injury and have played a completely mismanaged brand of hockey. That equates to a year and change of questionable hockey. And that is frankly, an unfair assessment. The majority of our roster did not play throughout the lockout. Despite these consistency qualms, we continue to remain in the elite discussion. People claim we devour our division, and while we do, our record against the west remains strong.

On the aforementioned basis alone, you do not disband a whole team near scorched earth style, especially when the most obvious decision has not been made; fire the coach. How foolish would we look if we brought in Boucher or Eakins but jettisoned Kesler, Edler and Burrows, only to see the Sedins drag the team to another playoff berth or a ninth place finish? It would be the epitome of incompetent management and we would be rightly ridiculed as joked.

Therefore, subtle changes to the roster and AV's departure is logical approach. Should failure persist, then you consider selling off the core but never before. Calgary had a borderline Cinderella run to their cup. We are a legitimate contender that needs tweeting, nothing more.
How foolish would we look if we kept the core the same and were bounced in the 1st round again with the same issues?mi think we'd look a lot more foolish then than a GM seeing a team failing for years and in a down turn and trying to go a different direction.

Lets also add that the Pens are the only team and core since the lockout to beable to pull off a scf loss to come back and win the cup, if anything that stat alone is pretty crushing for this core given the Pens superstars were all very young in their loss and had a lot of time and development left, we don't have that luxury with this core.


Last edited by iFan: 05-21-2013 at 03:07 AM.
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05-21-2013, 02:58 AM
  #786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derp Kassian View Post
Kessel was playing a solid two way game under Wilson too, the only thing Carlyle has really done is improve the PK while worsening the PP and added a nice system to prevent the D from getting exposed. Other than that he's held back guys like Macarthur, Grabovski, KUlemin and Gardiner.
Not to the extent he has this season. Lupul and Kadri exploded, although I doubt their pace is sustainable. MacArthur had a fluke season, otherwise is nothing special and Kulemin was used in as defensive role many Leaf fans cited a positive. Grabovski took a step back and lost his role with the emergence of Kadri and Bozak playing surprisingly better (still not first line player though). Gardiner is an odd one. In Carlyle's defense, Gardiner struggled mightily during the initial start, but I agree, he should have be allowed back into the roster earlier than he was.

That said, Wilson was a disaster. Carlyle did a lot for that team, much the same as Therrien did in Montreal. Overall, I do not see either as top ten coaches but both were fantastic this year.


Now on to rosters.

An example of subtle changes, since Wild fans seem open to trading Clutterbuck.

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
Chris Higgins ($2.500m) / Jordan Schroeder ($1.000m) / Cal Clutterbuck ($2.000m)
Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Dale Weise ($0.677m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Chris Tanev ($1.500m)
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Frank Corrado ($0.599m)
Andrew Alberts ($0.750m) /
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,395,944; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $904,056
-------

Personally, I would drop Booth, retain Roy and explore dealing Schneider but management appears to prefer otherwise.

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05-21-2013, 03:14 AM
  #787
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How foolish would we look if we kept the core the same and were bounced in the 1st round again with the same issues?mi think we'd look a lot more foolish then than a GM seeing a team failing for years and in a down turn and trying to go a different direction.

Lets also add that the Pens are the only team and core to beable to pull off a scf loss to come back and win the cup, if anything that stat alone is pretty crushing for this core given the Pens superstars were all very young in their loss and had a lot of time and development left, we don't have that luxury with this core.
You'd be mistaken. If we did get bounced yet again, despite making adjustments to the coaching staff, then we at least tried for one final hurrah - our swan song. Whereas, if we still made the playoffs after blowing up the team. The first thing every analyst will say is "If they hadn't dealt Kesler, Edler, etc they could have gone on another run." We would look ridiculous, especially since we never gave the new coach an opportunity to use our elite players.

Sure, we may have longer sustainability but now is not the time to scorch the team. No GM has ever stripped apart a high caliber team because of fan pessimism. Look how long Detroit has stayed alive despite being told they were old and done three years ago.

Pittsburgh was among the few to do it back to back. What you have essentially said is every team that made it in the past twenties but failed to win ought to pack it in, blow up their roster and only try again after a rebuild. If Detroit makes it by Chicago, what does that say? Should Boston rebuild once Chara inevitably retires?

It should not happen, and fortunately will not. Our core will remain intact and I, for one, believe this team is far better than some give it credit.

For the sake of argument, say we did entertain offers on our core.

Kesler for Strome+
Edler for Couturier+

Those are the frequently cited offers and expected value. What if teams aren't willing to pay that significant a price? Both fanbases have rejected those offers already. Kesler's injury history likely disconcerting for GMs. We might not get the offers we fancy that make blowing up the team a worthwhile endeavor even in a hypothetical. The rest of our roster is simply not worth a high return, unless Hamhuis, Garrison and Tanev are also on the "trade for youth" list.

Some seem to forget other teams realize the benefit of youth too and are not likely to ship our their highly touted prospects. Long Island is much better serviced waiting for Strome to develop, then trading for Kesler.


Last edited by Bourne Endeavor: 05-21-2013 at 03:31 AM.
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Old
05-21-2013, 03:56 AM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
You'd be mistaken. If we did get bounced yet again, despite making adjustments to the coaching staff, then we at least tried for one final hurrah - our swan song. Whereas, if we still made the playoffs after blowing up the team. The first thing every analyst will say is "If they hadn't dealt Kesler, Edler, etc they could have gone on another run." We would look ridiculous, especially since we never gave the new coach an opportunity to use our elite players.

Sure, we may have longer sustainability but now is not the time to scorch the team. No GM has ever stripped apart a high caliber team because of fan pessimism. Look how long Detroit has stayed alive despite being told they were old and done three years ago.

Pittsburgh was among the few to do it back to back. What you have essentially said is every team that made it in the past twenties but failed to win ought to pack it in, blow up their roster and only try again after a rebuild. If Detroit makes it by Chicago, what does that say? Should Boston rebuild once Chara inevitably retires?

It should not happen, and fortunately will not. Our core will remain intact and I, for one, believe this team is far better than some give it credit.
What do Chicago, Boston, Detroit all have in common?

No other team as won the cup since the lockout after losing in the scf, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, LA all have a winning core that's won a cup.

Sens did make big changes they traded off Heatley, let Chara and Redden all go and there just starting to bounce back from their loss in 07, Oilers just really sucked after their loss and still have a ways to go, Flyers blew it up and their young core is looking pretty good they just need to figure out their goaltending and add a solid D man, Devils have fallen apart and could be in for a lot of pain, that's not so great company our Canucks are in and given the 2 seasons after our cup failure we haven't really done anything, one playoff game won, that's not very promising going forward. Given our players and team stat all not improving and getting worse its very concerning.

I do respectfully disagree with you, I do think we need a shakeup and this is the time to do it, I do think we'd look very foolish if we just traded Luongo and changed coaches and ran with this core to be out in the 1st round again, vs making moves now. I do think there's more to that stat about teams losing in the scf not being able to come back to win, I think that shows how mentally tough it is on a core to go all that way and fail, just look at what it did to the Canucks since our run, this team has never looked the same and the fact only a young highly skilled team has been able to beat that stat it really works against this core. I think Gillis gave this core the time to work this out and bounce back from the scf loss and the 2 season after this team has gotten worse each season and with a worse playoff stat, this is simply unacceptable, only winning one game since the scf loss, a change and shakeup needs to happen, this core has had a lot of time to win, they were given 2 season after the loss to figure it out and failed to do so, same issues and problems come up and different excuses to why they sucked.

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05-21-2013, 03:58 AM
  #789
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Well if our players are simply worthless in a trade like you explain then what does that say about the team we have?

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05-21-2013, 04:02 AM
  #790
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I'm sure of you told LA fans that you'd trade them Richards for Schenn and Simmons they'd tell you to f off, they were very high on both of them, if a sabre fan said they'd trade us Kassian for Hodgson we'd tell them to f off, fans on here rarely get trade values right, see what some TB fans want for Edler? An expendable expensive winger and a 2nd round pick! Now any reasonable fan would know that's no where near what Edler would return, I'm not for trading Edler by the way, I think it just opens up a huge hole on the D and Edler is just stepping into his prime and young and we have him locked up at a great contract for 6 season.

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05-21-2013, 09:47 AM
  #791
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Not to the extent he has this season. Lupul and Kadri exploded, although I doubt their pace is sustainable. MacArthur had a fluke season, otherwise is nothing special and Kulemin was used in as defensive role many Leaf fans cited a positive. Grabovski took a step back and lost his role with the emergence of Kadri and Bozak playing surprisingly better (still not first line player though). Gardiner is an odd one. In Carlyle's defense, Gardiner struggled mightily during the initial start, but I agree, he should have be allowed back into the roster earlier than he was.

That said, Wilson was a disaster. Carlyle did a lot for that team, much the same as Therrien did in Montreal. Overall, I do not see either as top ten coaches but both were fantastic this year.


Now on to rosters.

An example of subtle changes, since Wild fans seem open to trading Clutterbuck.

FORWARDS
Daniel Sedin ($6.100m) / Henrik Sedin ($6.100m) / Zack Kassian ($0.870m)
David Booth ($4.250m) / Ryan Kesler ($5.000m) / Alexandre Burrows ($4.500m)
Chris Higgins ($2.500m) / Jordan Schroeder ($1.000m) / Cal Clutterbuck ($2.000m)
Maxim Lapierre ($1.000m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Jannik Hansen ($1.350m)
Dale Weise ($0.677m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Hamhuis ($4.500m) / Kevin Bieksa ($4.600m)
Jason Garrison ($4.600m) / Chris Tanev ($1.500m)
Alexander Edler ($5.000m) / Frank Corrado ($0.599m)
Andrew Alberts ($0.750m) /
GOALTENDERS
Cory Schneider ($4.000m)
Eddie Lack ($0.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,395,944; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $904,056
-------

Personally, I would drop Booth, retain Roy and explore dealing Schneider but management appears to prefer otherwise.
Adding Clusterbuck is a good idea but he would add to the hate of the team. The officials would hate us more too

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05-21-2013, 10:11 AM
  #792
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https://twitter.com/News1130Sports/s...60117414862848
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Hearing the #Canucks will have interest in Capitals forward Matt Hendricks if he's a u-f-a July 5th.
https://twitter.com/News1130Sports/s...60194623590402
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Hendricks a good penalty killer, face-off guy, lots of grit and great character in dressing room. Great 3rd - 4th line guy.
https://twitter.com/News1130Sports/s...60243394965504
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Henrdricks agent Miachel Wulkan tells me that priority #1 is to re-sign in Washington but not surprised lots of teams will have interest.

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05-21-2013, 10:16 AM
  #793
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Hendricks would be OK for the 4th line, but I don't think he's a 3rd liner.

Ticks all the boxes, though. Big, American, Can't Score, 1 goal in 34 playoff games.

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05-21-2013, 10:17 AM
  #794
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Hearing the #Canucks will have interest in Capitals forward Matt Hendricks if he's a u-f-a July 5th.
Is that a mistake or have they pushed the date back because the playoffs are ending so late?

Man, thats like changing the date of Christmas.

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05-21-2013, 10:21 AM
  #795
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Hendricks won't FA, in my opinion. Gillis had a chance to sign him before, but was unable.

Does this put the bullseye on Lappy?

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05-21-2013, 10:26 AM
  #796
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Even in the middle of the year I thought we could get a 2nd for Ballard... how did we not move him at the deadline?

Now you almost want to give him a chance under a new coach.

--------------------------------------

I wonder if NSH would do Schroeder for Blum straight up. Blum seems like surplus goods there but would fill a need here.
But then if Ballard does Ok with a new coach, it makes the first 3 years look even worse!

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05-21-2013, 10:27 AM
  #797
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Is that a mistake or have they pushed the date back because the playoffs are ending so late?

Man, thats like changing the date of Christmas.
Probably changed due to the lockout.

I don't mind it. Been camped in on Canada Day watching TSN a few too many times recently.

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05-21-2013, 10:29 AM
  #798
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We need 4th liners who score 30 goals a season.

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05-21-2013, 10:30 AM
  #799
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Hendricks won't FA, in my opinion. Gillis had a chance to sign him before, but was unable.

Does this put the bullseye on Lappy?
Here is Gillis being a reactionary GM again. Why doesn't he set the trend instead of lag it? His Detroit model was a bad Hamhuis hip check away from winning the cup ffs

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05-21-2013, 10:36 AM
  #800
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Is that a mistake or have they pushed the date back because the playoffs are ending so late?

Man, thats like changing the date of Christmas.
Yeah, it is because of the late start I believe.

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