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Allison Would Provide Proven Center Depth

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05-13-2005, 05:47 PM
  #1
abracanada
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Allison Would Provide Proven Center Depth

The word is, Allison is a free agent, healthy, and shopping his services. Now he would provide the Flames with some genuine punch up the middle.

http://spectorshockey.tripod.com/spe...e_rumours.html

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05-13-2005, 07:52 PM
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There is no point really for Allison. Yes, he would be amazing but our depth down the middle could easily be:

Langkow (needs top 6 minutes)
Rhino (needs top 6 minutes, could play center again)
Lombardi (should be #2 center to really shine)
Yelle (#3/4 center)
Wiemer, Nilson, Ritchie (can all play center)

If anything the Flames need a scoring LW, to either play on the top line or second line.

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05-13-2005, 08:10 PM
  #3
abracanada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
There is no point really for Allison. Yes, he would be amazing but our depth down the middle could easily be:

Langkow (needs top 6 minutes)
Rhino (needs top 6 minutes, could play center again)
Lombardi (should be #2 center to really shine)
Yelle (#3/4 center)
Wiemer, Nilson, Ritchie (can all play center)

If anything the Flames need a scoring LW, to either play on the top line or second line.
Rhino has been very effective on the left side - Langkow has been a 50 pt second line center before - and playing Lombo on a lower line, would give you a hungry talented player looking to play his way onto the top line. Besides, a player like Allison would give Iggy the first genuine, undisputed first line center he has ever had. This is not to say that Langkow has peaked and will never become a first line center, but the great teams never seem to have enough high potential players. Teams with two scoring lines succeed.

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05-13-2005, 09:17 PM
  #4
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I would like to have Allison coz we lacked big #1 center for years and I also believe, that we should trade Reinprecht for natural LW with better durability. But with so much uncertainty regarding new CBA, I won't go here too far.

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05-13-2005, 09:37 PM
  #5
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I would not be against signing Allison, he is one of my favourites, but it would have to be a very short inexpensive contract with his injury history.

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05-13-2005, 10:25 PM
  #6
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If he can be gotten him cheap, I would go for it. But otherwise, he's too much of a risk.

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05-13-2005, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Rhino has been very effective on the left side - Langkow has been a 50 pt second line center before - and playing Lombo on a lower line, would give you a hungry talented player looking to play his way onto the top line. Besides, a player like Allison would give Iggy the first genuine, undisputed first line center he has ever had. This is not to say that Langkow has peaked and will never become a first line center, but the great teams never seem to have enough high potential players. Teams with two scoring lines succeed.
#1 - It is a huge risk and to say Allison is STILL a #1 center is a guessing game since he has not played for quite sometime, and his injuries come have easily affected his game.

#2 - Allison has had beef with his previous coach/GM/Owner (it was one of them in LA). From what I have heard, he has a huge ego (AKA Bill Beurin style) and to me it seems like a big "savard" incident waiting to happen.

#3 - Lombardi needs top 6 time. He was affective last year when playing with good players. He does NOT need another season of playing with guys like Oliwa-type skill. We have guys for the 3/4th line in Yelle and other grinders..it is a waste to play a skilled player at his point in development in those kind of situations. See St. Louis for the previous Flames example for playing a skilled player on a grind line instead of top 6.

#4 - The Flames need a top LW more than anything. LW is clearly our weakess spot for offense with the loss od Deano, Sappy and possibly Gelinas.

#5 - You say trading Rhino would be an option for a LW. You fail to realize RHino has been injured the last season and a bit and his value is at an all time low right now. Trading Rhino at this point would get the Flames nothing much at all, unless package with something decent.

Why add more depth to a position the Flames are actually quite decent at now? The Flames are better off using their money to fill holes rather than adding depth at this point.

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05-13-2005, 11:02 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Besides, a player like Allison would give Iggy the first genuine, undisputed first line center he has ever had.
I'm sure he'd have a smaller contract with a ton of incentive clauses. Also, I'm sort of an optomist and would expect Allison to jump right back into top form (the lockout time off probably gave him the opportunity to rehab at a slow enough pace to be effective).

That said, the above comment alone made me think he'd be a huge boost to your team.

Allison/Iginla together could flat out dominate, I think. They'd scare the hell out of every team and give the second line guys more room to operate, for sure, as not 1, but 2 top d-men and or defensive forwards would be assigned to shadow the pair.

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05-14-2005, 03:32 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Dallas Drake
I'm sure he'd have a smaller contract with a ton of incentive clauses. Also, I'm sort of an optomist and would expect Allison to jump right back into top form (the lockout time off probably gave him the opportunity to rehab at a slow enough pace to be effective).
While having time off to rehab because of the lockout is a good thing, no matter how much skating you do on your own..it still does not amount to getting the rust off in actual NHL game play.

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05-14-2005, 12:39 PM
  #10
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I think Allison would be a great signing, and I also trust he will approach the level of play he exhibited before his injury problems. He and Iginla would be awesome together, and he would definitely be the #1 centerman. I think some of the other centermen, like Lombardi, could adjust to being a winger -- heck, he is still in his formative years. But, yes, Lombardi and Kobasew both need to be #1 or #2 line players next season, I don't see the use in keeping them any lower, unless they again show they are not ready for that level of responsibility at the NHL level, but they've gotta be given the chance right from the start. I also think Allison will be given a contract by someone that won't have those Lindros-like clauses, as I think there will be enough competition for his services.

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05-14-2005, 01:38 PM
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The importance of a #1 center is overrated. Sometimes it wins championships (Colorado had two #1's) and sometimes it doesn't matter (New Jersey seldom had anyone who would fit that profile). In the early 90's, the Flames couldn't decide if Gilmour or Nieuwendyk should be the go-to guy. So, that, among other things, contributed to trading Gilmour and thinking Robert Reichel was going to fill an adequate role on a top scoring line. The results were mixed, to be charitable.

Now, we're referring to a team that was predicted to finish the last season near the basement of the conference. They were able to confound all experts and make it to within one disputed goal of the Holy Grail. Fast forward to the present.

On paper, the offense is better than the one that reached the Finals last spring.

Langkow replaces Conroy
Lombardi and Reinprecht are healthy
Weimer replaces Oliwa

Elite pivots (i.e. those capable of centering a top scoring line on one of the top 7 Olympic/World Cup teams) make their wingers play better. As we've seen, Iginla's already proven that a "#1 center" is not an absolute requirement for making him perform to higher standards. Moreover, having those types of centers around don't always guarantee post-season success.

Teams with Allison tend not to go very far.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/players.../00000050.html

Pass. Let him sign with the Leafs. Toronto seems like the perfect place for him.

Let the Flames go with what they have. If roster adjustments are required, the coach and GM can figure it out in his own mind what changes would be needed to take the club to the next level.

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05-14-2005, 02:36 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
Elite pivots (i.e. those capable of centering a top scoring line on one of the top 7 Olympic/World Cup teams) make their wingers play better. As we've seen, Iginla's already proven that a "#1 center" is not an absolute requirement for making him perform to higher standards. Moreover, having those types of centers around don't always guarantee post-season success.

Teams with Allison tend not to go very far.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/players.../00000050.html

Pass. Let him sign with the Leafs. Toronto seems like the perfect place for him.

Let the Flames go with what they have. If roster adjustments are required, the coach and GM can figure it out in his own mind what changes would be needed to take the club to the next level.
Why is it that when a team doesnt have postseason success it seems to get blamed on one person? Allison does make his wingers around him better. Ask any of his wingers that have played with him. Put allison on a line with iginla and throw in kobasew and you would have a hell of a line. As far as his problems in LA it was with the coach and the way he wanted allison to play. Andy Murray seems to want every player to play like a grinder regardless of their talent level. Huge source of frustration for me as a kings fan. Let the skill players play their game and let the grinders play their game. Alot of kings fans also seem to think allison faked his injuries with the whiplash/pcs but it took so long to figure out that it was a chemical imbalance that it left a bad taste. Yeah he does have an ego but what athletes dont?

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05-14-2005, 02:43 PM
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Well, the Flames didnt go very far with Iginla before last year. Would you pass on him? And I think back to the World Championship where Sakic lined up with Iggy. That was some great hockey. Just for entertainment value alone, they would be awesome to watch. You also have to think the game may change after this lockout. Allison types may be more effective than ever.

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05-14-2005, 03:16 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
#1 - It is a huge risk and to say Allison is STILL a #1 center is a guessing game since he has not played for quite sometime, and his injuries come have easily affected his game.

#2 - Allison has had beef with his previous coach/GM/Owner (it was one of them in LA). From what I have heard, he has a huge ego (AKA Bill Beurin style) and to me it seems like a big "savard" incident waiting to happen.

#3 - Lombardi needs top 6 time. He was affective last year when playing with good players. He does NOT need another season of playing with guys like Oliwa-type skill. We have guys for the 3/4th line in Yelle and other grinders..it is a waste to play a skilled player at his point in development in those kind of situations. See St. Louis for the previous Flames example for playing a skilled player on a grind line instead of top 6.

#4 - The Flames need a top LW more than anything. LW is clearly our weakess spot for offense with the loss od Deano, Sappy and possibly Gelinas.

#5 - You say trading Rhino would be an option for a LW. You fail to realize RHino has been injured the last season and a bit and his value is at an all time low right now. Trading Rhino at this point would get the Flames nothing much at all, unless package with something decent.

Why add more depth to a position the Flames are actually quite decent at now? The Flames are better off using their money to fill holes rather than adding depth at this point.
#1. And if he is not a number one center, you structure his contract with incentives. Even on the second line, Allison is a huge stud.

#2. See #1. If he demonstrates his Guerin like attitude, you cut his ice time, and he makes less money.

#3. The great years of the Montreal Canadians, they were structured exactly that way. Guy Lafleur had a hell of a time cracking the lineup. It may have ticked him off, but look at the end result. In the new CBA, I think you will find these guys are not quite so spoiled. Besides, Lombardi has hardly been tearing up the AHL, and rookies often have a terrible second year. If you are so worried about Allison bouncing back, you better save a little for Lombardi as well.

#4. Actually, I don't see the left wing as the problem you do. Nilson and Simon performed admirably in the last part of the season and into the playoffs. Nieminen and Nilson were both scoring stars for their respective teams in Europe. Reinprecht is pencilled in on the left side according to Sutter, and the addition of Weimer will complicate things (I doubt he will take Yelle's spot). Weimer is a fair improvement over Oliwa skill wise. Reinprecht is a considerable cut above Saprykin at this point in their careers. I am worried about losing Gelinas however, and I didn't get the feeling he was one of Sutters favorites.

5. I didn't say trading Rhino would be an option - someone else did. I am in favor of keeping Rhino. I think the rest may have done wonders for him, and gave his injury a chance to heal properly. I am more worried about Lombardi than Rhino. He has not performed the way I had hoped he would.

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05-14-2005, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
I am worried about losing Gelinas however, and I didn't get the feeling he was one of Sutters favorites.
Really? I always got the impression Sutter loved him.

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05-14-2005, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer
Really? I always got the impression Sutter loved him.
There were rumours all year about Gelinas being moved. I believe if his contract hadn't been guaranteed, he would have been gone. I thought Gelinas performed great in the playoffs, especially in the early rounds, but I believe Sutter would like to go with younger legs.

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05-14-2005, 04:13 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
There were rumours all year about Gelinas being moved. I believe if his contract hadn't been guaranteed, he would have been gone. I thought Gelinas performed great in the playoffs, especially in the early rounds, but I believe Sutter would like to go with younger legs.
I don't think younger legs has anything to do with moving Gelinas. The guy was the most fittest Flame last season. If anything he is moved to allow a guy like Nystrom some playing time. The Flames are quick weak, in terms of the rest of their team's positions on the LW after losing Deano last year. If Gelinas, can be had for cheap on a resign, I don't see Sutter NOT trying to resign him for a 3rd line role and the occasional top 6 role when the Flames need a quick change up.

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05-14-2005, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
I don't think younger legs has anything to do with moving Gelinas. The guy was the most fittest Flame last season. If anything he is moved to allow a guy like Nystrom some playing time. The Flames are quick weak, in terms of the rest of their team's positions on the LW after losing Deano last year. If Gelinas, can be had for cheap on a resign, I don't see Sutter NOT trying to resign him for a 3rd line role and the occasional top 6 role when the Flames need a quick change up.
He was the fittest, but he also faded towards the end of the playoffs. That was because of age, not fitness. And you are contradicting yourself. If he is letting Gelinas go to give Nystrom some playing time, that is replacing him with younger legs. I agree that McAmmond played very well and Sutter said so, but he did not hesitate to let him go. I don't believe he saw the left wing with McAmmond as an improvement over what he took to the playoffs.

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05-15-2005, 10:12 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19
Why is it that when a team doesnt have postseason success it seems to get blamed on one person?
We're only talking about one particular player in this case. The Capitals never made it to the playoffs with him, and got better without him. The same scenario occurred in Boston. The Kings, when they did make it, only got out of the first round once with Allison. It's hard not to notice a pattern, just like the other playoff non-entities (Phil Housley and Andrew Cassels). A top scoring center can have a substantial effect on a team's playoff hopes and post-season success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Well, the Flames didnt go very far with Iginla before last year.
He rose to the ocassion when it counted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
And I think back to the World Championship where Sakic lined up with Iggy.
It was the Salt Lake City Olympics, but there's no need to let the facts get in the way. You're making Patrick look awfully good in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Guy Lafleur had a hell of a time cracking the lineup.
Flash back to the early 70's, Scotty Bowman has, something like, these thoughts going through his mind: he has, at his disposal, a firmly-established, future HOFer, named Yvan Cournoyer as the RW on the top line. On the other hand, there's a highly-touted prospect who's having a little difficulty adjusting to life in the NHL, who has been looked up to carry the torch, passed on from such legends as Maurice Richard and Jean Beliveau with the sport's most-storied franchise, in a city that came to expect nothing less than a Stanley Cup. Hmm, who gets more ice time, until proven otherwise?

Comparing Allison with Guy Lafleur...somebody should invite some Habs fans over here to heap some scorn and ridicule.


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05-15-2005, 11:36 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
We're only talking about one particular player in this case. The Capitals never made it to the playoffs with him, and got better without him. The same scenario occurred in Boston. The Kings, when they did make it, only got out of the first round once with Allison. It's hard not to notice a pattern, just like the other playoff non-entities (Phil Housley and Andrew Cassels). A top scoring center can have a substantial effect on a team's playoff hopes and post-season success.



He rose to the ocassion when it counted.



It was the Salt Lake City Olympics, but there's no need to let the facts get in the way. You're making Patrick look awfully good in this thread.



Flash back to the early 70's, Scotty Bowman has, something like, these thoughts going through his mind: he has, at his disposal, a firmly-established, future HOFer, named Yvan Cournoyer as the RW on the top line. On the other hand, there's a highly-touted prospect who's having a little difficulty adjusting to life in the NHL, who has been looked up to carry the torch, passed on from such legends as Maurice Richard and Jean Beliveau with the sport's most-storied franchise, in a city that came to expect nothing less than a Stanley Cup. Hmm, who gets more ice time, until proven otherwise?

Comparing Allison with Guy Lafleur...somebody should invite some Habs fans over here to heap some scorn and ridicule.
Actually, the comparison was Lombardi with Lafleur. Not a great one but I was hardly comparing talent, I was talking about an approach that brought a hockey player around, and taught him some great two way skills. Using Bowman's approach with Allison and Lombardi, you play the proven veteran and the prospect sits.
Re Iggy rising to the occasion, are you saying that Allison producing would not be possible? And there are several players whose teams have not accomplished much that I would snap up in a heartbeat. Heatley or Kovalchuk come to mind. Before you get started, no I am not comparing Allison's talent with either of those two, just pointing out that scouting talent and blaming individual players for the inadequacies of a team is faulty. If Sutter used that approach, he never would have brought in Nilson, Simon or Nieminen and we all know how that turned out.

Olympics, my bad, that point you made.

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05-15-2005, 11:56 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
He was the fittest, but he also faded towards the end of the playoffs. That was because of age, not fitness. And you are contradicting yourself. If he is letting Gelinas go to give Nystrom some playing time, that is replacing him with younger legs. I agree that McAmmond played very well and Sutter said so, but he did not hesitate to let him go. I don't believe he saw the left wing with McAmmond as an improvement over what he took to the playoffs.
When I am referring to younger legs I am referring to the idea that younger legs = players with more stamina..not age. I think pretty much ALL Flames faded near the end due to the # of games they played and the injuries they were all getting or having to play extra time because of others being injured.

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05-15-2005, 12:08 PM
  #22
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We don't need a centre, we have a good group. What we need is someone to take the pressure of Iggy, and score 35-40 goals on the wing. Now that could be Kobasew, I don't know but thats the only glaring weakness. It was evident in game 6 and 7 that Tampa put a little more effort to shut Iggy down, and there was no one there to take that pressure off of him. If we can get somone else, I think Iginla will be more dominant in the regular season and playoffs, and if the best player in the world can be more dominant thats a scary thought.

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05-15-2005, 01:51 PM
  #23
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Calgary might have to deal one of their D-men for a winger. The good news is that they have an abundance of defensemen to deal from. However, the quick question is which ones are untouchable from a Calgary standpoint. I mean, is Leopold available? Is Lyman available? Is Regehr available? If the Flames want to upgrade their offense, one of those players, unfortunately, will need to be moved.

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05-15-2005, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
are you saying that Allison producing would not be possible?
Why not suggest re-acquiring Cory Stillman? He can improve the offensive depth!

Allison has no demonstrated track record of taking his play to the next level, and has been in the league long enough for even casual observers to properly evaluate his statistics (which were linked to) objectively. So, the answer is no. That question was already answered with the word, "pass" and the suggestion to let him go sign with Toronto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
And there are several players whose teams have not accomplished much that I would snap up in a heartbeat. Heatley or Kovalchuk come to mind. Before you get started, no I am not comparing Allison's talent with either of those two, just pointing out that scouting talent
They're much younger, and have shown the skill at the international level. The Thrashers will get better, as soon as they realize what a non-winner Marc Savard is - another player with a remarkable history of not making the playoffs - and send him packing. The concept is called "addition by subtraction." Believe it or not, some NHLers are only there for the nice paycheck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
and blaming individual players for the inadequacies of a team is faulty.
In some cases, maybe, but in this case, there's nothing to suggest that Allison would improve the Flames in any way. Other posters have mentioned his injury history, which wouldn't be a big issue, if he's rehabilitated. The other issues: his attitude and not having gotten along with Andy Murray, are definite matters of concern. Imagine this...if he had differences with Andy Murray, he would REALLY have problems with Daryl Sutter.

All you have to go on to defend your position is "well, I thought of this thread idea because of reading Spector's, and Allison scored a lot of points."

Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
If Sutter used that approach, he never would have brought in Nilson, Simon or Nieminen and we all know how that turned out.
Oh, really? Sutter knew exactly what he was doing, when he acquired all of them. Two of them, Simon and Niemenen, had played on Cup-winning teams in Colorado, and Simon was a key contributor to the Capitals team, which beat the Sabres in the Eastern Conference Final in '98. The didn't make the playoffs the previous year with your boy. One thing that Craig Button was completely right about was wanting to change the culture of losing by bringing in players, who'd been a part of winning organizations. Sutter, apparently, shares this philosophy, for the most part.

Jason Allison has never helped to elevate his team's performance. To compare with a well-known baseball player: the Seattle Mariners and Texas Rangers got better after Alex Rodriguez left, the Boston Red Sox won a World Series, partly because they didn't get him. The New York Yankees don't seem to be any better, due to his presence in the lineup. He is one of the finest players in the game, but there is something about him, that is not conducive to winning. Allison is hardly the A-Rod of hockey, but you get the point.

Now, pay attention to somebody who's thinking:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Calgary might have to deal one of their D-men for a winger. The good news is that they have an abundance of defensemen to deal from. However, the quick question is which ones are untouchable from a Calgary standpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
I mean, is Leopold available?
no
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Is Lyman available?
for the right price, maybe
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Is Regehr available?
no


Last edited by Badger Bob: 05-15-2005 at 06:14 PM.
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05-15-2005, 04:20 PM
  #25
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calgary should make a blockbuster trade, sending Kipprusoff, Regehr, and cash to the Kings for Craig Conroy and the rights to Jamie Storr video footage

end of discussion.


flames get a great C who worked well with them before and lead them to a cup, and the financial stability of the club would be increased tenfold by selling the Storr footage to Americas Funniest Home Videos. the flames would then go out and replace kipper with Khabi, and Regehr with a re-tooled Kirk Maltby

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