HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Notices

Hearing for Torres on Stoll hit (Thurs 9am PT, NYC; w/DW); out for rest of WCSF

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-16-2013, 12:28 AM
  #351
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Bend at the waist to get lower. Hit through, not up. The argument goes to style of hitting and is best exemplified in football by comparing Jack Tatum and Ronnie Lott, both heavy hitters. Tatum was a headshot artist.
Another post where you display a lack of knowledge. Lott easily had just as many head shots as Tatum. Tatum though had one unfortunate incident and was a raider so of course he must be a dirty head shot artist. What a load of crap.


Last edited by NWShark*: 05-16-2013 at 12:37 AM.
NWShark* is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:30 AM
  #352
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 210 View Post
This is the crux of the issue...the history of the player throwing the hit shouldn't matter in determining if it's a hit worthy of a suspension or not. It either is or it isn't, period. A player's history should only play a role in the length of a suspension, not if he gets one or not.
A voice of reason.

NWShark* is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:30 AM
  #353
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 7,360
vCash: 500
What depresses me is how quickly hits to the head have become the equivalent of spearing or kneeing someone.

This isn't an auto collision. Players have to keep their head up. If they don't want to play under those circumstances, fine.

I never had a problem with Torres's hit on Michalek, for example. Michalek doesn't keep his head up, Torres recognizes this and punishes him. If Michalek hadn't been watching his pass he'd have easily avoided the hit.

OrrNumber4 is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:31 AM
  #354
Phu
Registered User
 
Phu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Just because the shoulder clipped Stoll's shoulder doesn't negate that Torres hit Stoll in the head whether you want to call it with the back of his shoulder or his back, he got Stoll's head on the follow-through. It is textbook blindside from the angle he took. It is the same angle Thornton took on Perron.
Does the textbook really say that the blind side is the direction the player is looking at?

Phu is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:35 AM
  #355
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
What depresses me is how quickly hits to the head have become the equivalent of spearing or kneeing someone.

This isn't an auto collision. Players have to keep their head up. If they don't want to play under those circumstances, fine.

I never had a problem with Torres's hit on Michalek, for example. Michalek doesn't keep his head up, Torres recognizes this and punishes him. If Michalek hadn't been watching his pass he'd have easily avoided the hit.
Michaleks head was up, he was looking the other way to follow his pass. If He was looking ahead he would have seen Torres. THat hit was predatory IMO and the principal point of contact was easily definable as the head since Torres didn't even make contact with any other part of Michaleks body. Blatant cheap shot worse that any of the ones he's been suspended for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0KC91Wuz2k


Last edited by NWShark*: 05-16-2013 at 12:43 AM.
NWShark* is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:37 AM
  #356
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
In all this I find it funny that Shannahan is the decider on these things since he was absolutely one of the dirtiest players in the game when he played....

NWShark* is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:41 AM
  #357
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,243
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
I'm sorry but all of your arguments on this subject just sound theoretical to me. I know people hate when I say this but frankly it's true... You have to at least have played a contact sport to be able to make judgments about these situations. You make it sound like people can just adjust their path perfectly by millimeters to attain the perfect attack angle when attempting to hit someone. All this while simultaneously constantly calculating how your target will react and adjust their path to avoid the hit. It's just ridiculous. These guys are going fast and the decision to hit someone is made and how the person being hit factors into the outcome and the repercussions. Regardless of any of that.... In this particular instance there was no reason for a penalty call. The shoulder was targeted and the desired hit was achieved. Any head contact was minimal, incidental and unintentional. Nothing about his path was of the hit was predatory. **** even Fraser said "Stoll was eligible to be hit".

As far as I'm concerned the the league owe Torres and the Sharks an apology for dragging him to NY for this ******** circus.
I have played contact sports and it isn't theoretical. That is not a reasonable objection on your part. I have been around football coaches on both sides, some go with hit up, some with hit through. Yes, it is hard to adjust, but if you read the post without bias you would see how the Canadian hockey world has been willfully ignorant with regard to hits to the head and how they teach players. There needs to be an emphasis on hitting through and an emphasis on the hitter being responsible for point of contact. I do realize that players will make mistakes even with the best of intentions if changes are mad e.

SJeasy is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:42 AM
  #358
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,054
vCash: 500
Yes the hearing is based on Torres reputation but lets not pretend for a second that he didn't earn every bit of that reputation. It was a long process that took a lot of work on Torres's part. And lets not pretend to be shocked that Torres isn't getting the benefit of the doubt

WantonAbandon is online now  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:44 AM
  #359
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I have played contact sports and it isn't theoretical. That is not a reasonable objection on your part. I have been around football coaches on both sides, some go with hit up, some with hit through. Yes, it is hard to adjust, but if you read the post without bias you would see how the Canadian hockey world has been willfully ignorant with regard to hits to the head and how they teach players. There needs to be an emphasis on hitting through and an emphasis on the hitter being responsible for point of contact. I do realize that players will make mistakes even with the best of intentions if changes are mad e.
I'm sorry , you can say you have but there is no way someone who's played contact sports would say what you did.

By saying people should be suspended as long as the injury you're being insanely unrealistic. That is something a parent who never played says as opposed to to ones who've been in the middle of the chaos.

NWShark* is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:45 AM
  #360
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,054
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I have played contact sports and it isn't theoretical. That is not a reasonable objection on your part. I have been around football coaches on both sides, some go with hit up, some with hit through. Yes, it is hard to adjust, but if you read the post without bias you would see how the Canadian hockey world has been willfully ignorant with regard to hits to the head and how they teach players. There needs to be an emphasis on hitting through and an emphasis on the hitter being responsible for point of contact. I do realize that players will make mistakes even with the best of intentions if changes are mad e.
While we are at it how about hockey become a professional sport and end the side show of fighting. You fight its a major and your out of the game period and done

WantonAbandon is online now  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:49 AM
  #361
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Yes the hearing is based on Torres reputation but lets not pretend for a second that he didn't earn every bit of that reputation. It was a long process that took a lot of work on Torres's part. And lets not pretend to be shocked that Torres isn't getting the benefit of the doubt

Reputation should NOT matter in determining if the hit was dirty or not. Reputation and suspension history matters ONLY when sentencing. Just like the court system, you prove the guilt then in a separate setting you determine sentencing. They don't go hand in hand.

NWShark* is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:50 AM
  #362
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,054
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
I'm sorry , you can say you have but there is no way someone who's played contact sports would say what you did.

By saying people should be suspended as long as the injury you're being insanely unrealistic. That is something a parent who never played says as opposed to to ones who've been in the middle of the chaos.
Hockey has serious problems that stem from the culture of the Canadian Junior league that need to be addressed at some point. First step in my opinion would be to end the fighting sideshows

WantonAbandon is online now  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:50 AM
  #363
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
While we are at it how about hockey become a professional sport and end the side show of fighting. You fight its a major and your out of the game period and done
Oh good grief... Yeah lets turn it into advanced rec league...

The NHL doesn't need people who think like that as fans IMO.

NWShark* is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:51 AM
  #364
Phu
Registered User
 
Phu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Yes the hearing is based on Torres reputation but lets not pretend for a second that he didn't earn every bit of that reputation. It was a long process that took a lot of work on Torres's part. And lets not pretend to be shocked that Torres isn't getting the benefit of the doubt
This is beyond benefit of the doubt IMO. It's close to not even being a penalty. I could see a clear penalty that would clearly warrant a look but when it's a look not based on a questionable hit but based on the name .... that is dismaying, if not shocking.

I think most of us felt raffi could lay a dirty one at any point and get the hook, and we'd have had to say, well okay that's the risk. But this is ********.

Phu is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:52 AM
  #365
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 7,360
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
Michaleks head was up, he was looking the other way to follow his pass. If He was looking ahead he would have seen Torres. THat hit was predatory IMO and the principal point of contact was easily definable as the head since Torres didn't even make contact with any other part of Michaleks body. Blatant cheap shot worse that any of the ones he's been suspended for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0KC91Wuz2k
Bingo.

What do you mean by "predatory"? Aren't all hits predatory in a way?

Firstly, it was a legal hit at the time, so not a cheap shot. Secondly, the play wasn't dead, and Michalek had the puck...he has to know that he is liable to get hit. He wasn't hit from behind or even from the side (and I am ok with hits from the side).

Plus, yeah, Michalek was out for the remainder of that series. But he's back on feet now.

OrrNumber4 is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:52 AM
  #366
NWShark*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
This is beyond benefit of the doubt IMO. It's close to not even being a penalty. I could see a clear penalty that would clearly warrant a look but when it's a look not based on a questionable hit but based on the name .... that is dismaying, if not shocking.

I think most of us felt raffi could lay a dirty one at any point and get the hook, and we'd have had to say, well okay that's the risk. But this is ********.
Exactly...

NWShark* is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:53 AM
  #367
WTFetus
Moderator
 
WTFetus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Francisco
Country: United States
Posts: 11,739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Yes the hearing is based on Torres reputation but lets not pretend for a second that he didn't earn every bit of that reputation. It was a long process that took a lot of work on Torres's part. And lets not pretend to be shocked that Torres isn't getting the benefit of the doubt
And that's a major flaw. Use history to determine how long a suspension should be. Don't use history to determine if it should be reviewed. In my opinion, if a player like Kopitar or Marleau did this hit, it wouldn't even be looked at by the league.

It should be:
1. Watch a hit
2. Label it as illegal
3. Decide on a certain number of games
4. See if that player has any prior history
5. Adjust accordingly

WTFetus is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:53 AM
  #368
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,054
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
Reputation should matter in determining if the hit was dirty or not. Reputation and suspension history matters when sentencing. Just like the court system, you prove the guilt then in a separate setting you determine sentencing. They don't go hand in hand.
He hit Stoll in the head and Stoll is out for who knows how long. This is a guy who has a history of hitting people in the head. But sure this one time is an accident... excuse Shanaban for not immediately buying it and giving Torres the benefit of the doubt. My teal glasses can't make me feel any empathy for Torres who has no one to blame but himself or Doug Wilson who had to have anticipated the possibility.

WantonAbandon is online now  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:55 AM
  #369
WantonAbandon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,054
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
And that's a major flaw. Use history to determine how long a suspension should be. Don't use history to determine if it should be reviewed. In my opinion, if a player like Kopitar or Marleau did this hit, it wouldn't even be looked at by the league.

It should be:
1. Watch a hit
2. Label it as illegal
3. Decide on a certain number of games
4. See if that player has any prior history
5. Adjust accordingly
You can't just live in the present that isn't how life works. If St Louis or Datsyuk did this then yeah they probably would be given the benefit of the doubt, but Torres has had too many "accidents" in his career. As a result he has been called in for a hearing.

WantonAbandon is online now  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:57 AM
  #370
Gene Parmesan
Ball-So-Hard-U
 
Gene Parmesan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 29,265
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
This is beyond benefit of the doubt IMO. It's close to not even being a penalty. I could see a clear penalty that would clearly warrant a look but when it's a look not based on a questionable hit but based on the name .... that is dismaying, if not shocking.

I think most of us felt raffi could lay a dirty one at any point and get the hook, and we'd have had to say, well okay that's the risk. But this is ********.
Agreed.

Gene Parmesan is online now  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:57 AM
  #371
Phu
Registered User
 
Phu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
You can't just live in the present that isn't how life works. If St Louis or Datsyuk did this then yeah they probably would be given the benefit of the doubt, but Torres has had too many "accidents" in his career. As a result he has been called in for a hearing.
It's not like those other hits weren't clearly headshots. This is clearly NOT a headshot.

Phu is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:58 AM
  #372
WTFetus
Moderator
 
WTFetus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Francisco
Country: United States
Posts: 11,739
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
You can't just live in the present that isn't how life works.
That's not living in the present. It's not letting your personal biases get in the way.

WTFetus is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:58 AM
  #373
Gene Parmesan
Ball-So-Hard-U
 
Gene Parmesan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 29,265
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
He hit Stoll in the head and Stoll is out for who knows how long. This is a guy who has a history of hitting people in the head. But sure this one time is an accident... excuse Shanaban for not immediately buying it and giving Torres the benefit of the doubt. My teal glasses can't make me feel any empathy for Torres who has no one to blame but himself or Doug Wilson who had to have anticipated the possibility.
He didn't target his head though....

Gene Parmesan is online now  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:59 AM
  #374
Sharksfan83
Registered User
 
Sharksfan83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,625
vCash: 50
Penalty and a fine would be sufficient in this case.

Sharksfan83 is offline  
Old
05-16-2013, 12:59 AM
  #375
sharklife25
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: College Park, MD
Country: United States
Posts: 216
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
While we are at it how about hockey become a professional sport and end the side show of fighting. You fight its a major and your out of the game period and done
This is one of the most ridiculous and illogical post I've ever read.

Without fighting people take runs at players like Thornton, Marleau and Couture with no abandon because they don't have to answer for it...

Fighting protects players from cheap shots.....

But yeah, let's take it out of the game....

sharklife25 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:57 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.