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Habs' off-season moves (all trades, proposals & free agent talk here) III

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Old
05-23-2013, 09:55 AM
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yianik View Post
If the real Diaz is the guy before his injury, he is far from a garbage player for us or anybody else. If he hadn't gotten injured and kept it up hed be a fairly valuable asset right now.
He was the second d-men of the Switzerland team just behind Josi for TOI/G.

Switzerland was second in PP and second in defense...

We have seen what he could do and he was really bad in one game after he made that pass to Eller in game 1.

To me Diaz is a keeper. He will give us seasons of 50 points with good defense.

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05-23-2013, 10:00 AM
  #602
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My gripe with Diaz is that we have too many dmen of his build and that he's majestically soft. Just typing his name I'm scared the letters would flutter off the screen.

That said he could end up being another Markov for us as Markov declines or whatever.

If we can get a good young winger for a package containing him, we should think about it.

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05-23-2013, 10:01 AM
  #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
I don't think that gets it done. They would surely want Beaulieu or Tinordi in any deal for Bogosian. Diaz is a good player but too similar to Enstrom and Byfuglien in terms of style, plus potentially a UFA in a year.
How is he similar to Byfuglien? Byfuglien hits and is a much better player than Diaz. I could see him as more of a comparable to Enstrom.

I don't understand this. Do people think Diaz is like garbage? Then arguments im hearing on other threads (especially about CP31) where our team was GOOD this year makes absolute 0 sense to me...

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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
Blatant quantity for quality to a team that doesn't need it. WPG isn't rebuilding and has decent prospects. Bogosian and Burmistrov are both highly talented, young players. Take into context their potential worth and not where they're at right now. That's where you're way off. Build it around top-4 and top-9 players and it may be more realistic.
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
You are delusional because there are 28 other teams in the league, and at least 7 that can offer better value for Bogo. Did you even consider that?
We can offer better prospects too (Tinordi/Beaulieu) but IMO, I would prefer not to have to give these ones up, especially Tinordi.

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Originally Posted by gusfring View Post
Pateryn and Kristo are average prospects...

DD, Diaz and Moen have very little value.
I understand Moen, but DD and Diaz?

Wow okay. People explain to me then how "GREAT" our team was this year...

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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
You just really, really want something to happen. You just can't sit still, can you?

That is not to going to happen. Eller, Diaz, Kristo. AND a 4th. My god. WTF?
I can sit still. The point is sometimes you be aggressive and go after what you want.

Instead of saying "My god. WTF?" If you're WPG GM, offer me a counter-offer.

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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I don't understand how Diaz and Desharnais are garbage players to us, but then we're supposed to believe other teams will be falling over themselves to trade solid assets for them. Can't have it both ways.
\

LOL I have never said DD or Diaz were "garbage" players. DD is a very skilled centreman for his size. Just smurfy is my issue with him. Diaz, also skilled PMD, barely a top 4 D, but definitely a 5th/6th D on most teams.

But you can put words in my mouth if you want, i'll just call you out on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsfannick View Post
Won't get it done at all, they'll need much more and someone will give it to them, plus I doubt they package then as they will bring the jets more value if they are sold separately
Definitely you're right about package vs. separate thing. I understand it won't get it done as numerous people have said no no no. So we offer Tinordi/Bealieau plus first for Bogo? Is that really worth it?

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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Look. You're gonna get killed here, you're just gonna get wiped out. You're losing cred by the minute. Why don't you slow down and breathe. Zen.
LOL thanks I will.

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05-23-2013, 10:06 AM
  #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
LOL I have never said DD or Diaz were "garbage" players. DD is a very skilled centreman for his size. Just smurfy is my issue with him. Diaz, also skilled PMD, barely a top 4 D, but definitely a 5th/6th D on most teams.

But you can put words in my mouth if you want, i'll just call you out on it.
I wasn't putting words into your mouth, I was more criticizing the idea that you're trying to get treasure for our trash. Basically what a lot of Hab fans do in every trade proposal - amazingly we get rid of all our unwanted players and get players with better potential, without even considering the other team's needs. Offer up some combination of guys that aren't worth much to us (Diaz, Desharnais, Pateryn, Kristo, Moen, 2nd round picks, etc) since quantity trumps quality, and there you go.

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05-23-2013, 10:10 AM
  #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Diaz was at a pace of 50 points (13 points in 19 games) before being injured and will reach it in the next two years.
Bogosian is great steady defensive d-men but has reached 30 points once (14 points in 33 games this season).
In fact, if you remove his last 4 games, Bogosian did 7 points in 29 games...
In this case we are needing for a physical d-man but you are ready to trade a PMD at lower value. We have the most offensive D in the league but other teams are much less. This is not a reason to devalue our assets.
BTW, Emelin is not so far from Bogosian. And if Bogosian was so good he would already have 4M per year.

Burmistrov did 28 points two years ago and 14 points (slower pace) last season. He does show some interesting flashes but he may never reach 60 points in his career. At least he can play SH... and he does skate well.

Kristo will make 20-20 and we will now soon enough. Question is: will he be a 30-30 player...

I would not trade Bogosian + Burmistrov for DD + Diaz + Kristo.

Diaz + Kristo > Bogosian > Burmistrov.

BTW, Bogosian will want 4.5-5M for his 30 points and Burmistrov will want 3-3.5 for his 28 points especially after a trade.

Diaz + DD at 4.775 vs Bogosian for the same price?
I know that Bogosian can play good in defense but DD (60) + Diaz (50) can put 110 points together for the same money...

We need so much a solid d-men that some of you are even ready to give Plekanec + Kristo for Bogosian...

Our defensive with PK, JT and Emelin can handle itself.
First off, WTF? Emelin is just as good as Bogosian? Dude Emelin is 5 years older and Bogosian is much better defensively and offensively. But sure...

Secondly, you can't look at all this in black and white. Would you rather have a strong 2-way 6'3" defenseman on the back end or would u rather have a 5'8" smurf that in 3-4 years will have his production toppled by that of a younger better player in Galchenyuk and a 5'11" PMD that we already have 2 in Markov/Subban and then another one in the pipeline in Beaulieu? Desharnais and Diaz both on our team will not help us win a SC. Bogosian however, the odds are better. He's bigger, stronger on the puck, better for us in all aspects over Diaz. Not to mention he's also 5 years younger than Diaz. Don't get me wrong, Diaz is a great player but in 3-4 years he will be eclipsed by Bogosian.

Now does WPG make a I guess stupid play in trading their future for a playoff trip next year or do they most likely trade him for better value. Most likely the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gusfring View Post
To make the deal fair, they should throw Kane in.

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05-23-2013, 10:10 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
My gripe with Diaz is that we have too many dmen of his build and that he's majestically soft. Just typing his name I'm scared the letters would flutter off the screen.

That said he could end up being another Markov for us as Markov declines or whatever.

If we can get a good young winger for a package containing him, we should think about it.
And if you think that with PK, Markov and Nathan B on the way, we could afford to move Diaz we could also look at trading with a team that needs a PMD, say Diaz to Flyers for Grossman, huge, 28 year old shut down D-man.

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05-23-2013, 10:12 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Established ok. His play has picked up I guess. Don't trade Tinordi. Don't trade Beaulieu.

Offer them:

Moen, Kristo, DD, Diaz, Pateryn and 1st for Bogosian & Burmistrov.

That should be a good enough trade. Diaz is valuable, DD is a bit valuable, his lack of size brings him down. Pateryn is a big defensive D, Kristo is a skilled 2nd/3rd line RW (or at least will be), Moen is a serviceable bottom 6 forward (although he sucked hard this year) and a 1st round pick (next year).
So you think Bogosian is top-2 in any team in the league and Burmistrov is top-3 also (beast season so far = 28 points)?

In his first 29 games, Bogosian did 7 points.
This is Gorges or Emelin kind of pace.

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05-23-2013, 10:13 AM
  #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I wasn't putting words into your mouth, I was more criticizing the idea that you're trying to get treasure for our trash. Basically what a lot of Hab fans do in every trade proposal - amazingly we get rid of all our unwanted players and get players with better potential, without even considering the other team's needs. Offer up some combination of guys that aren't worth much to us (Diaz, Desharnais, Pateryn, Kristo, Moen, 2nd round picks, etc) since quantity trumps quality, and there you go.
Firstly my latest proposal including a 1st round draft pick.

Secondly, since when is Diaz and DD trash? Yes they're not the Ryan Keslers or Dan Hamhuis' of the league but they're worth something, maybe I guess not as much as one of Bogo or Burmi, but a guy can dream. Of all the times we get fleeced with trades, time for us to get more trades where we are the ones coming out on top (Cole for Ryder + 3rd = genius MB)

My final offer for Burmi and Bogo:

Eller
Diaz
Moen
Collberg
2014 1st round pick

I don't understand how ^ that trade proposal is bad.

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05-23-2013, 10:13 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I don't understand how Diaz and Desharnais are garbage players to us, but then we're supposed to believe other teams will be falling over themselves to trade solid assets for them. Can't have it both ways.
Is it your 1st day on Hf Boards? Didn't you know small players are useless and garbage?

I'm sure we can get St.Louis for a 7th and Kane for a late 3rd.


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05-23-2013, 10:14 AM
  #610
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Anyone interested?

http://tvasports.ca/hockey/lnh/une-a...eleau-23052013

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05-23-2013, 10:14 AM
  #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
So you think Bogosian is top-2 in any team in the league and Burmistrov is top-3 also (beast season so far = 28 points)?

In his first 29 games, Bogosian did 7 points.
This is Gorges or Emelin kind of pace.
LOL WTF?

I never said Bogosian was top 2. I said top 4 (jesus read earlier posts people) And Burmi s a minimum Top 9, more like Top 6.

They're both young, big skilled players. Don't look at them with a microscope of 1 season (especially this one) and say they're not worth it.


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05-23-2013, 10:18 AM
  #612
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This guy can be something good : http://www.toutsurlehockey.com/16718...urs-de-la-khl/

Shall we get is right from St-louis?

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05-23-2013, 10:18 AM
  #613
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
My gripe with Diaz is that we have too many dmen of his build and that he's majestically soft. Just typing his name I'm scared the letters would flutter off the screen.

That said he could end up being another Markov for us as Markov declines or whatever.

If we can get a good young winger for a package containing him, we should think about it.
Diaz isn't a Brooks Orpik like road grader, but I don't find him soft. He just plays to his strength, he's a guy that will take or give a hit when needed but relies more on smarts/finesse to get the job done. He gets massively underrated here because of the obsession with size. People need to cut him a bit of slack because this was his 1st NA playoff action, Tinordi also struggled(a lot worse than Diaz) and he is 6'7", there is no substitute for experience.

With Markov in limbo and Beaulieu still 2-3 years from a frontline role, MB should be looking at locking him up for 3-4 years(same with Emelin), not trading him, as he can be a UFA after next year.


Last edited by Monctonscout: 05-23-2013 at 10:49 AM.
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05-23-2013, 10:21 AM
  #614
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Last two paragraphs... sold. The $3.75M/3yrs is fine. He earned it with that last bit. Hopefully he knows he can get money like that... it would be a shame if he re-signed in Colorado for half that salary, just because he thought that was the limit for him. Maybe the guys on the panel can make sure he knows it.

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05-23-2013, 10:29 AM
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Diaz isn't a Brooks Orpik like road grader, but I don't find him soft. He just plays to his strength, he's a guy that will take or give a hit when needed but relies more on smarts/finesse to get the job done. He gets massively underrated here because of the obsession with size.

With Markov in limbo and Beaulieu still 2-3 years from a frontline role, MB should be looking at locking him up for 3-4 years(same with Emelin), not trading him, as he can be a UFA after next year.
First of all, Markov is not in limbo right now, but will be after next season (idk if that's what you meant).

Second of all, Beaulieu is only 1-2 years from making the team in general. Locking up Diaz for 3-4 years to me, IMO makes absolutely no sense when in 1-2 years the guy who will end up taking his spot in the lineup will be ready. Emelin yes, sign away. Trade Diaz at the deadline and you could get a pretty penny for him, provided our team doesn't change so drastically that we're SC Contenders come next April (which I highly doubt).

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05-23-2013, 10:30 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Last two paragraphs... sold. The $3.75M/3yrs is fine. He earned it with that last bit. Hopefully he knows he can get money like that... it would be a shame if he re-signed in Colorado for half that salary, just because he thought that was the limit for him. Maybe the guys on the panel can make sure he knows it.
We NEED to get bigger and stronger and that would be a very good first move!!!!!

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05-23-2013, 10:30 AM
  #617
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Last two paragraphs... sold. The $3.75M/3yrs is fine. He earned it with that last bit. Hopefully he knows he can get money like that... it would be a shame if he re-signed in Colorado for half that salary, just because he thought that was the limit for him. Maybe the guys on the panel can make sure he knows it.
I'd be shocked if we don't look at him should he reach free agency.

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05-23-2013, 10:35 AM
  #618
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How is he similar to Byfuglien? Byfuglien hits and is a much better player than Diaz. I could see him as more of a comparable to Enstrom.

I don't understand this. Do people think Diaz is like garbage? Then arguments im hearing on other threads (especially about CP31) where our team was GOOD this year makes absolute 0 sense to me...
He is similar to Byfuglien in that he is primarily an offensive defenseman, that's is the Byfuglien's #1 asset on defense, he is below average defensively, though he obviously comes in a different package than Diaz.

I agree on Diaz, he is hugely underrated here, he can play top 4 on most NHL teams, legit top 4 guy. Can play 20 minutes a night mistake free with PP and PK time. Plus his cap hit is tiny to boot.

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05-23-2013, 10:37 AM
  #619
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Is it your 1st day on Hf Boards? Didn't you know small players are useless and garbage?

I'm sure we can get St.Louis for a 7th and Kane for a late 3rd.

I know you're being facetious but most of the Habs small players are in the mold of last year's Kyle Wellwood (Desharnais) or Steve Sullivan from the past few seasons (Gionta) rather than the top scorers in the NHL. You don't see anyone dumping Gallagher.

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05-23-2013, 10:42 AM
  #620
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Bogosian was picked in the 2008 Entry Draft -3rd overall behind Stamkos and Doughty. He's 22yrs old and has 4 yrs. experience in the NHL and flourished last season and this season. Zach has the potential to be a viable #2 defenceman with the Habs, being a solid defensive defenceman with good offensive ability.

Burmistrov was picked in the 2010 Entry Draft - 8th overall chosen right after Jeff Skinner in the Taylor Hall / Tyler Seguin Sweepstakes. A very strong draft that seen Tarasenko go at #16 and Tinordi at #22, just to give people a reference to how good these players can become.

They could be core pieces to add to the Habs young core group of Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Diaz, Emelin, Tinordi and Beaulieu. This makes a trade between two teams that are at about the same stage in development.

For Bergevin and Winnipeg GM Cheveldayoff, both former Chicago Hockey Execs, to come to some equally beneficial transaction there will have to be two core group players going back and possibly exchanges of draft choices.

This would be a reference point in establishing a fair value trade, remember the Habs and Jets both have fans and bosses to answer to when deals are made.

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05-23-2013, 10:45 AM
  #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
He is similar to Byfuglien in that he is primarily an offensive defenseman, that's is the Byfuglien's #1 asset on defense, he is below average defensively, though he obviously comes in a different package than Diaz.

I agree on Diaz, he is hugely underrated here, he can play top 4 on most NHL teams, legit top 4 guy. Can play 20 minutes a night mistake free with PP and PK time. Plus his cap hit is tiny to boot.
I think it's arguable that he's top 4 guy on most teams. I believe on all teams he's top 6. But on most teams I don't think he goes higher than that. And on weaker defensive teams like Toronto, us, Colorado, Columbus, he's a top 4 guys easy. The problem is I have another defenseman like that of which I feel the same way: Gorges. He's not a top 4 defenseman on most teams, but on all teams he's a top 6 defenseman. Now he doesn't have Diaz' PM ability, but he makes up for it in defensive prowess.

Also I hate to disagree but Byfuglien also is a big mother trucker. Yes he's effing slow as **** and very bad defensively but he makes it up by putting him 50+ point seasons and throwing some nice hits. I think Byfuglien is a top 4 guy on almost all teams where, as I said before, Diaz isn't IMO.

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05-23-2013, 10:49 AM
  #622
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Originally Posted by S Bah View Post
Bogosian was picked in the 2008 Entry Draft -3rd overall behind Stamkos and Doughty. He's 22yrs old and has 4 yrs. experience in the NHL and flourished last season and this season. Zach has the potential to be a viable #2 defenceman with the Habs, being a solid defensive defenceman with good offensive ability.

Burmistrov was picked in the 2010 Entry Draft - 8th overall chosen right after Jeff Skinner in the Taylor Hall / Tyler Seguin Sweepstakes. A very strong draft that seen Tarasenko go at #16 and Tinordi at #22, just to give people a reference to how good these players can become.

They could be core pieces to add to the Habs young core group of Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Gallagher, Diaz, Emelin, Tinordi and Beaulieu. This makes a trade between two teams that are at about the same stage in development.

For Bergevin and Winnipeg GM Cheveldayoff, both former Chicago Hockey Execs, to come to some equally beneficial transaction there will have to be two core group players going back and possibly exchanges of draft choices.

This would be a reference point in establishing a fair value trade, remember the Habs and Jets both have fans and bosses to answer to when deals are made.
How is the 2010 draft class "very good". Is it considered deep in your opinion? IMO it's not. After Hall and Seguin, the talent level drops dramatically. What are you basing that Tinordi, Tarasenko, Burmistrov are "great" players. You make it seem like they're near the level of Hall and Seguin, when they're far from it. Tarasenko has been in the league how long? Burmistrov's numbers are...?

But nice try.

As for the trade value, then let's all come to a consensus that getting Bogo or Burmi or both would cost us Bealieu, Gorges, Gallagher, and Eller plus a high draft pick (1/2/3).

Not worth it.

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05-23-2013, 10:52 AM
  #623
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First off, WTF? Emelin is just as good as Bogosian? Dude Emelin is 5 years older and Bogosian is much better defensively and offensively. But sure...

Secondly, you can't look at all this in black and white. Would you rather have a strong 2-way 6'3" defenseman on the back end or would u rather have a 5'8" smurf that in 3-4 years will have his production toppled by that of a younger better player in Galchenyuk and a 5'11" PMD that we already have 2 in Markov/Subban and then another one in the pipeline in Beaulieu? Desharnais and Diaz both on our team will not help us win a SC. Bogosian however, the odds are better. He's bigger, stronger on the puck, better for us in all aspects over Diaz. Not to mention he's also 5 years younger than Diaz. Don't get me wrong, Diaz is a great player but in 3-4 years he will be eclipsed by Bogosian.

Now does WPG make a I guess stupid play in trading their future for a playoff trip next year or do they most likely trade him for better value. Most likely the latter.



OK you may have a few points but you are so much in love with Bogosian and Burmistrov that you are ready to offer more and more at every posts.

So you think that Emelin is not in the same league as Bogosian?
Why do you think Markov looked so bad once Emelin was gone?

Talking about Smurfs, we should offer also Giaonta and Gallagher...

BTW PMD who can get 40-50 points are quite rare in this league. There was 19 of them last season.

But I will tell you what bugs me most: post after post, I see more and more being offered for the Bogosian/Burmistrov duo. This is a Habs board not a place to denigrate our assets and say that the other team asset is better.

It is not black and white but DD still did 60 points and Diaz will produce 40-50 points seasons. Adding a 1st and Kristo is going overboard.

BTW how much you want to offer Bogosian: 5M X 5 years? and Burmistrov: 3M X 3 years?

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05-23-2013, 11:02 AM
  #624
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Diaz isn't a Brooks Orpik like road grader, but I don't find him soft. He just plays to his strength, he's a guy that will take or give a hit when needed but relies more on smarts/finesse to get the job done. He gets massively underrated here because of the obsession with size. People need to cut him a bit of slack because this was his 1st NA playoff action, Tinordi also struggled(a lot worse than Diaz) and he is 6'7", there is no substitute for experience.

With Markov in limbo and Beaulieu still 2-3 years from a frontline role, MB should be looking at locking him up for 3-4 years(same with Emelin), not trading him, as he can be a UFA after next year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
He is similar to Byfuglien in that he is primarily an offensive defenseman, that's is the Byfuglien's #1 asset on defense, he is below average defensively, though he obviously comes in a different package than Diaz.

I agree on Diaz, he is hugely underrated here, he can play top 4 on most NHL teams, legit top 4 guy. Can play 20 minutes a night mistake free with PP and PK time. Plus his cap hit is tiny to boot.
You're lyin to yourself if you think that Diaz is similar to Byfuglien in any way.

He's a good player but we have too many of his mold - that's all I'm saying. I'm not opposed to keeping him but YOU NEED SANDPAPER ON THE BACKEND. Subban is a two-way d-man and he's not a particularly brutal checker, Gorges and Markov either. That leaves the injured Emelin, the tiny and old and awful Bouillon and Diaz as the other three vets.

You can't keep this defense and expect to win anything when teams forecheck against us, not with how Therrien arranges the D anyway.

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Old
05-23-2013, 11:26 AM
  #625
dmanfish90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
OK you may have a few points but you are so much in love with Bogosian and Burmistrov that you are ready to offer more and more at every posts.

So you think that Emelin is not in the same league as Bogosian?
Why do you think Markov looked so bad once Emelin was gone?


Talking about Smurfs, we should offer also Giaonta and Gallagher...

BTW PMD who can get 40-50 points are quite rare in this league. There was 19 of them last season.

But I will tell you what bugs me most: post after post, I see more and more being offered for the Bogosian/Burmistrov duo. This is a Habs board not a place to denigrate our assets and say that the other team asset is better.

It is not black and white but DD still did 60 points and Diaz will produce 40-50 points seasons. Adding a 1st and Kristo is going overboard.

BTW how much you want to offer Bogosian: 5M X 5 years? and Burmistrov: 3M X 3 years?
Let's get a few things straight here:

1) Emelin is not in the same league as Bogosian. Reasoning:
a) One of them was a Top 3 draft pick , the other was a 3rd round draft pick
b) One of them took 1-2 years to make it to the NHL, the other took 7 years.
c) Bogosian is bigger, handles the puck better, is a much better all-around D. Emelin hits and plays defense (not overly amazingly defensively too).
PMD don't grow on trees, but let's show the difference between being on pace for 40-50 points per season and ACTUALLY scoring 40-50 points per season. Diaz being in his prime now needs to produce 40+ points next year for your argument to work. This year he was on pace, then injury set him back.

LOL the reason why I offered more and more is because people said what I originally offered for Burmi and Bogosian was worth sooo little that WPG wouldn't even look at it. So don't blame me, i'm just trying to keep up with the "public opinion" that is the value of Bogosian and Burmistrov in the current trade market.

Next, what I would pay for either. Burmistrov (who is a #2B/#3A C essentially) should get 3 years 2.5 million per. Bogosian is a top 4 defenseman. Should get at his next contract 4 years 4 million per. Is that too much for you?

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