HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Pat Quinn: Your thoughts?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-14-2005, 11:07 AM
  #1
PapaBear*
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,063
vCash: 500
Pat Quinn: Your thoughts?

Over rated? Under appriecated? over hyped because he plays for the center of the universe in Canada (toronto)?

PapaBear* is offline  
Old
05-14-2005, 11:23 AM
  #2
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
Over rated? Under appriecated? over hyped because he plays for the center of the universe in Canada (toronto)?
Given his history, it is an embarassment he is allowed to represent Canada.

Name the only non-player ever expelled from the NHL for dishonourable conduct. Surprise it is Pat Quinn.

It was about 18 years ago that NHL President John Ziegler expelled and banned Pat Quinn for life from the NHL for conduct prejudicial to the league during the infamous Quinngate affair. How soon we forget.

If it was only an isolated incident, it may have been possible to just say it was an error in judgment; but this was one of three major ethical lapses by Quinn as a coach and manager.

Pat Quinn was coach of the LA Kings during the 1986-87 season. While still coaching that team, under contract to the Kings and negotiating with the Kings for a contract extension of his coaching contract, he entered into mid-season negotiations with the Vancouver Canucks.

On December 11, 1986 he reached an agreement in principle with Vancouver to become GM and President. On December 24,1986 he signed a contract with Vancouver to commence on June 1,1987 as President and GM. On January 2, 1987 while coaching LA and while in Vancouver to play the Canucks, an envelope containing a cheque for $100,000 was delivered to him by a Canuck trainer to seal the deal while he was conducting a practice in preparation for the upcoming game with the Canucks. At that point in the season LA and Vancouver were locked in a struggle to make the play-offs.

Quinn then returned to LA and arranged a lunch with Rogie Vachon, GM of the Kings. Vachon assumed the meeting was to finalize and sign Quinn's coaching contract extension. When Quinn told Vachon he had signed with the Canucks (but not about the $100,000 payment), Vachon was flabbergasted and stormed out of the restaurant, immediately calling Jerry Buss, the owner. After a few days delay, Buss called John Zeigler who became involved.

Meanwhile rumours of the Quinn signing were surfacing in the Vancouver media. Zeigler then called Canucks owner who was in Hawaii on vacation who confirmed the signing and revealed that Quinn had received the $100,00 signing bonus to seal the deal.

Zeigler was outraged and immediately expelled Pat Quinn from the NHL for dishonourable conduct on January 9, 1987. Pat Quinn would later say he never even considered how the public might perceive his conduct in accepting a $100,000 signing bonus from the Vancouver Canucks while he was still under contract to the Los Angeles Kings. He said that he felt that he had done nothing wrong. This from a person (Quinn), who had just completed his law degree and was in the process of seeking admission to the California State Bar. BTW he was not admitted to the State Bar.

The statement from Ziegler expelling Quinn said:

"Mr. Quinn is directly responsible for the preparation and conduct of the Los Angeles Kings' NHL game competitions. Despite these responsibilities, he has committed himself to assume the responsibilities of a general manager for a competing team in this league, has accepted money from them and yet has continued to attempt to discharge his responsibilities to the Los Angeles Kings. Effective immediately, and until further notice to the contrary, Mr. Patrick Quinn is expelled from the National Hockey League and may not be employee by any member club of the league or involved in any further activities on behalf of the league or any of its member clubs."

Zeigler then appointed NHL chief legal counsel, Gil Stein to investigate the case fully and report back to him. After reviewing the report Ziegler fined the Vancouver Canucks $310,000 which represented 31 days from the time of the agreement in principle of December 11, 1986 until Quinn was expelled by Ziegler. Quinn was banned from joining the Canucks as GM until after the both LA and Vancouver were out of the play-offs and prohibited from coaching for three years.

The Canucks and Quinn appealed the decision to the league Board of Governors and the appeal was dismissed. They then appealed to the BC Supreme Court. The Justice ruled that Ziegler had overstepped his bounds by fining the Canucks for 31 separate counts each at $10,000 per day and reduced the fine to $10,000. However he ruled that Ziegler was wholly within his jurisdiction to deal with Quinn in the manner he had done and declined to interfere in the discipline meted out by Ziegler to Pat Quinn.

A reporter would later ask Quinn, if his decision to accept the Canucks' overture was out of character, Quinn said: "I'd like to think that's the case."

Unfortunately it appears totally in character as, during his court appeal, evidence was filed showing that he had connived to keep his former contract to coach the Kings secret after being fired by the Flyers in 1985. By keeping the Kings contract-signing secret, he was able to obtain a further $50,000 as damages from the Flyers for his firing. Had he been truthful, he would not legally have been entitled to that payment. The Flyers management were furious when they learned of his deception and the Kings were not blameless either as they conspired with him to keep the deal under wraps. The Kings then should not have been surprised when Quinn did the same thing to them – they knew his predilections.

Interestingly Quinngate came back to haunt Quinn during the Vladimir Krutov transfer fee dispute hearing held in Stockholm which ended up costing the Canucks about $1.3 million when the Arbitrator found Vancouver liable for the last two years of the transfer fee payments to the Russian Ice Hockey authorities for signing Krutov. Quinn’s credibility was destroyed when he was unable to explain to the satisfaction of the Arbitrator how it was that the Canucks were also reneging on the transfer fee payments for Igor Larionov although they had not cut him from the team. Quinn claimed he was of good character and was then faced with the facts of Quinngate to show his bad character.

In a desperate last minute maneuver to shore up their crumbling case, the Canucks mere days before the hearing paid up the missed Larionov payments and in fact pre-paid the next installments. Quinn had loudly proclaimed his honesty and integrity when trying to explain the Larionov situation. Once Quinn did that, he opened up his character to question and the whole sordid Quinngate affair was laid out for the Arbitrator to see.

The Canucks defense to not paying the transfer fees for Krutov rested on two grounds. Firstly the Krutov standard NHL playing contract with the Vancouver Canucks was collateral to the transfer fee agreement with the Russian hockey authorites (sort of sub-contract). The Canucks claimed that Krutov by allegedly breaching that contract by not being in shape as alleged by the Canucks, resulted in the Canucks being able to avoid the further transfer fees under the contract with the Russian authorities (of course the Larionov transfer fee situation did not go a long way to helping the Canucks case).

The Canucks missed the major requirement to claim this was a collateral contract – Krutov was not party to the transfer fee agreement and as the Arbitrator pointed out it was first year law student knowledge that collateral contracts must be between the same parties. Interestingly neither Burke with his law degree from Harvard nor Quinn with his just completed law degree from the University of Philadeplhia picked up on this rather obvious defect in their case. DUH!

The second defense was that Quinn alleged that he had an oral promise from the Russians that they would forgive the last two years of the transfer fees if either Krutov or Larionov did not stay with the team. The Russians denied that they had ever made such a promise. Again basic contract law generally prevents a party from going outside the signed contract clauses and like most contracts it also provided that all previous negotiations, discussions and agreements are void. Quinn then tried to claim that in fact this promise was given after the contracts were all signed and again the Russians denied this occurred. Again courts do not usually allow such claims but there are some exceptions. Even if an exception were to be made, it would require Quinn’s word to be preferred against that of the Russian negotiators. Given Quinngate and Quinn’s own abysmal performance in explaining the Larionov transfer fee situation, the Arbitrator had little trouble in dismissing Quinn’s credibility out of hand.

This portion of Quinn’s testimony under cross-examination by counsel for the Russian hockey authorities is priceless and it was published in the Vancouver Province on February 26, 1992 under the headline QUINN: 'WE MESSED UP HERE' - THE KRUTOV RULING: THE TRANSCRIPTS
Quote:
Edited transcripts of Vancouver attorney Randy Wittchen, representing the Soviets, cross-examining Pat Quinn on circumstances of club missing agreed-upon transfer payments to Soviets for Igor Larionov.

Wittchen: Are you aware that there were problems with the November (1991) payment with Larionov?

Quinn: No.

Wittchen: Were you aware of a newspaper article that appeared in Vancouver Province December 31?

Quinn: Now that you mention it, Burke did make it known to me. And apparently Faminoff, through a local reporter, indicated that there was a problem with the payment.

Wittchen (introducing Province story as evidence): This is a report from Mr.(Tony) Gallagher of The Province dated December 31, 1991 . . . Are you aware that one of your officials of your organization on January 1, 1992 gave an interview to another reporter (Vancouver Sun reporter Elliott Pap) that in fact this was untrue, all payments were up to date on Larionov?

Quinn: It was our assumption that we were on time; I don't do the accounting, I don't stay on top of each cheque that goes out.

Wittchen: This direction to your bank, I notice your name appears here but not your signature. Can you identify the signatures that are on here?

Quinn: One is (director of finance) Carlos Mascarenhas and the other is (Brian) Burke (who was representing the Canucks as counsel at the hearing).

Wittchen: In fact on Dec. 31, 1991 the Vancouver Canucks were in arrears is that correct?

Quinn: Yes.

Wittchen: I will suggest to you that the only reason this payment was made is because it was very embarrassing at this hearing.

Quinn: I disagree with that. We have messed up on payment in June (1990) and we messed up here . . . the fact that you have suggested we weren't going to be paying our debt is offensive.

Wittchen: This is for the amount of $206,250. What does that represent?

Quinn: A lot of money.

Wittchen: . . . Do you know what schedule of payments that represents?

Quinn: I assume the final ones according to the schedule.

Wittchen: If you look at the transfer fee agreement there are certain scheduled fees, and the schedule of fees are July 10, 1991, Nov. 10, 1991, Jan. 10, 1992 and March 10, 1992.

Quinn: November was missed. What does Gallagher or Faminoff say?

Wittchen: The information that we had is that two payments, the July (1990) and November payments, have been missed, were late, hadn't been made on time. But interestingly enough this (the Canucks' fee transfer) seems to be for more than is due and owing. . . . Does that not suggest that this was a pre-payment of the March 1992 payment?

Quinn: It appears likely.

Wittchen: I will suggest to you that the only reason these payments were made was in response to that newspaper article and to rehabilitate what had gone on with Larionov whom you admitted has played fine. You haven't had a problem . . . The first four (payments) were made in a timely fashion, is that correct?

Quinn: To my knowledge, yes. I was made aware of this story by Gallagher, I believe I was in Los Angeles at the time it came out.

Wittchen: Did not an official of your organization on January 1, 1992 state to reporter Elliott Pap of the Vancouver Sun that everything was up to date and it (the Gallagher story) was untrue? Were you aware of that?

Quinn: No . . . Since I have been on the road as a coach, I very seldom get to see a lot of these sorts of things and any responses that are madein the papers in Vancouver often are missed . . .
Quinn was President and GM and Krutov and Larionov at the time were the most expensive players under contract to the Canucks and they were in fact the only two player contracts that Quinn had ever negotiated according to his own evidence. Do you not find it incredible he did not know precisely what was going on regarding the missed transfer fees? The Arbitrator certainly did.

And this is the sort of person we chose to represent Canada. Sad, very sad.

Maybe we should bring Alan Eagleson back to organize the team for Hockey Canada? Quinn and Eagleson - birds of a feather.

Wetcoaster is offline  
Old
05-14-2005, 04:51 PM
  #3
IdiotsPickedMyName*
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,720
vCash: 500


Wow

I'm speechless.

IdiotsPickedMyName* is offline  
Old
05-14-2005, 05:19 PM
  #4
SerbianEagle
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Edmonton
Country: Serbia
Posts: 3,530
vCash: 500
So am I!! Speechless that is.

SerbianEagle is offline  
Old
05-14-2005, 05:22 PM
  #5
KH1
Registered User
 
KH1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Under the cap floor
Country: United States
Posts: 16,018
vCash: 500
Yeah, wetcoaster pretty much sums up why I don't like Pat Quinn. Plus, he's just not a great coach (as shown by his failure to take some really great Toronto teams to the cup.)

KH1 is offline  
Old
05-15-2005, 02:16 AM
  #6
Hasbro
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Hasbro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Rectangle
Country: Sami
Posts: 29,644
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Henry I
Yeah, wetcoaster pretty much sums up why I don't like Pat Quinn. Plus, he's just not a great coach (as shown by his failure to take some really great Toronto teams to the cup.)
Have to agree there. His handling of the goaltending in Salt Lake damn near sunk the team. I'm convinced a big reason Roy declined the team was it was obvious Quinn wanted CuJo in net.

Always reminded me of Den Nelson of the NBA.

Hasbro is online now  
Old
05-15-2005, 02:23 AM
  #7
mr gib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Given his history, it is an embarassment he is allowed to represent Canada.

Name the only non-player ever expelled from the NHL for dishonourable conduct. Surprise it is Pat Quinn.

It was about 18 years ago that NHL President John Ziegler expelled and banned Pat Quinn for life from the NHL for conduct prejudicial to the league during the infamous Quinngate affair. How soon we forget.

If it was only an isolated incident, it may have been possible to just say it was an error in judgment; but this was one of three major ethical lapses by Quinn as a coach and manager.

Pat Quinn was coach of the LA Kings during the 1986-87 season. While still coaching that team, under contract to the Kings and negotiating with the Kings for a contract extension of his coaching contract, he entered into mid-season negotiations with the Vancouver Canucks.

On December 11, 1986 he reached an agreement in principle with Vancouver to become GM and President. On December 24,1986 he signed a contract with Vancouver to commence on June 1,1987 as President and GM. On January 2, 1987 while coaching LA and while in Vancouver to play the Canucks, an envelope containing a cheque for $100,000 was delivered to him by a Canuck trainer to seal the deal while he was conducting a practice in preparation for the upcoming game with the Canucks. At that point in the season LA and Vancouver were locked in a struggle to make the play-offs.

Quinn then returned to LA and arranged a lunch with Rogie Vachon, GM of the Kings. Vachon assumed the meeting was to finalize and sign Quinn's coaching contract extension. When Quinn told Vachon he had signed with the Canucks (but not about the $100,000 payment), Vachon was flabbergasted and stormed out of the restaurant, immediately calling Jerry Buss, the owner. After a few days delay, Buss called John Zeigler who became involved.

Meanwhile rumours of the Quinn signing were surfacing in the Vancouver media. Zeigler then called Canucks owner who was in Hawaii on vacation who confirmed the signing and revealed that Quinn had received the $100,00 signing bonus to seal the deal.

Zeigler was outraged and immediately expelled Pat Quinn from the NHL for dishonourable conduct on January 9, 1987. Pat Quinn would later say he never even considered how the public might perceive his conduct in accepting a $100,000 signing bonus from the Vancouver Canucks while he was still under contract to the Los Angeles Kings. He said that he felt that he had done nothing wrong. This from a person (Quinn), who had just completed his law degree and was in the process of seeking admission to the California State Bar. BTW he was not admitted to the State Bar.

The statement from Ziegler expelling Quinn said:

"Mr. Quinn is directly responsible for the preparation and conduct of the Los Angeles Kings' NHL game competitions. Despite these responsibilities, he has committed himself to assume the responsibilities of a general manager for a competing team in this league, has accepted money from them and yet has continued to attempt to discharge his responsibilities to the Los Angeles Kings. Effective immediately, and until further notice to the contrary, Mr. Patrick Quinn is expelled from the National Hockey League and may not be employee by any member club of the league or involved in any further activities on behalf of the league or any of its member clubs."

Zeigler then appointed NHL chief legal counsel, Gil Stein to investigate the case fully and report back to him. After reviewing the report Ziegler fined the Vancouver Canucks $310,000 which represented 31 days from the time of the agreement in principle of December 11, 1986 until Quinn was expelled by Ziegler. Quinn was banned from joining the Canucks as GM until after the both LA and Vancouver were out of the play-offs and prohibited from coaching for three years.

The Canucks and Quinn appealed the decision to the league Board of Governors and the appeal was dismissed. They then appealed to the BC Supreme Court. The Justice ruled that Ziegler had overstepped his bounds by fining the Canucks for 31 separate counts each at $10,000 per day and reduced the fine to $10,000. However he ruled that Ziegler was wholly within his jurisdiction to deal with Quinn in the manner he had done and declined to interfere in the discipline meted out by Ziegler to Pat Quinn.

A reporter would later ask Quinn, if his decision to accept the Canucks' overture was out of character, Quinn said: "I'd like to think that's the case."

Unfortunately it appears totally in character as, during his court appeal, evidence was filed showing that he had connived to keep his former contract to coach the Kings secret after being fired by the Flyers in 1985. By keeping the Kings contract-signing secret, he was able to obtain a further $50,000 as damages from the Flyers for his firing. Had he been truthful, he would not legally have been entitled to that payment. The Flyers management were furious when they learned of his deception and the Kings were not blameless either as they conspired with him to keep the deal under wraps. The Kings then should not have been surprised when Quinn did the same thing to them – they knew his predilections.

Interestingly Quinngate came back to haunt Quinn during the Vladimir Krutov transfer fee dispute hearing held in Stockholm which ended up costing the Canucks about $1.3 million when the Arbitrator found Vancouver liable for the last two years of the transfer fee payments to the Russian Ice Hockey authorities for signing Krutov. Quinn’s credibility was destroyed when he was unable to explain to the satisfaction of the Arbitrator how it was that the Canucks were also reneging on the transfer fee payments for Igor Larionov although they had not cut him from the team. Quinn claimed he was of good character and was then faced with the facts of Quinngate to show his bad character.

In a desperate last minute maneuver to shore up their crumbling case, the Canucks mere days before the hearing paid up the missed Larionov payments and in fact pre-paid the next installments. Quinn had loudly proclaimed his honesty and integrity when trying to explain the Larionov situation. Once Quinn did that, he opened up his character to question and the whole sordid Quinngate affair was laid out for the Arbitrator to see.

The Canucks defense to not paying the transfer fees for Krutov rested on two grounds. Firstly the Krutov standard NHL playing contract with the Vancouver Canucks was collateral to the transfer fee agreement with the Russian hockey authorites (sort of sub-contract). The Canucks claimed that Krutov by allegedly breaching that contract by not being in shape as alleged by the Canucks, resulted in the Canucks being able to avoid the further transfer fees under the contract with the Russian authorities (of course the Larionov transfer fee situation did not go a long way to helping the Canucks case).

The Canucks missed the major requirement to claim this was a collateral contract – Krutov was not party to the transfer fee agreement and as the Arbitrator pointed out it was first year law student knowledge that collateral contracts must be between the same parties. Interestingly neither Burke with his law degree from Harvard nor Quinn with his just completed law degree from the University of Philadeplhia picked up on this rather obvious defect in their case. DUH!

The second defense was that Quinn alleged that he had an oral promise from the Russians that they would forgive the last two years of the transfer fees if either Krutov or Larionov did not stay with the team. The Russians denied that they had ever made such a promise. Again basic contract law generally prevents a party from going outside the signed contract clauses and like most contracts it also provided that all previous negotiations, discussions and agreements are void. Quinn then tried to claim that in fact this promise was given after the contracts were all signed and again the Russians denied this occurred. Again courts do not usually allow such claims but there are some exceptions. Even if an exception were to be made, it would require Quinn’s word to be preferred against that of the Russian negotiators. Given Quinngate and Quinn’s own abysmal performance in explaining the Larionov transfer fee situation, the Arbitrator had little trouble in dismissing Quinn’s credibility out of hand.

This portion of Quinn’s testimony under cross-examination by counsel for the Russian hockey authorities is priceless and it was published in the Vancouver Province on February 26, 1992 under the headline QUINN: 'WE MESSED UP HERE' - THE KRUTOV RULING: THE TRANSCRIPTS


Quinn was President and GM and Krutov and Larionov at the time were the most expensive players under contract to the Canucks and they were in fact the only two player contracts that Quinn had ever negotiated according to his own evidence. Do you not find it incredible he did not know precisely what was going on regarding the missed transfer fees? The Arbitrator certainly did.

And this is the sort of person we chose to represent Canada. Sad, very sad.

Maybe we should bring Alan Eagleson back to organize the team for Hockey Canada? Quinn and Eagleson - birds of a feather.
oh that's right quinn's a lawyer

mr gib is offline  
Old
05-15-2005, 03:47 AM
  #8
MS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 12,045
vCash: 500
The only thing that could keep Quinn out of the HHOF is the murky LA-Vancouver move, which was admittedly inexcusable. And the lack of a Cup ... but he was so close in 1980 and 1994 that can probably be overlooked.

Otherwise, he'd probably be a HHOF lock. Only Irvin, Arbour, and Bowman have won more games as an NHL head coach. 2 Adams awards, finalist a couple other times. Olympic gold medal. Everywhere he's gone except the LA stop he did a terrific job. How many guys have been top NHL head coaches in 4 different decades?

Roger Neilson was a nice guy, but Quinn's coaching credentials blow Neilson's out of the water. If Neilson is in the HHOF, Quinn should be too whether people like him or not.

MS is offline  
Old
05-15-2005, 04:46 AM
  #9
VanIslander
17/07/2014 ATD RIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,946
vCash: 500
Let's not forget that Pat Quinn won the Jack Adams award as best coach in Philly and led the Flyers to the stanley Cup Finals. He then again won the Jack Adams award in Vancouver and a couple of seasons later led the Canucks to the Finals.

Quinn likes to be in charge and yet trusts those he surrounds himself with. That's his genius.

As a Canucks fan, I've a lot to thank him for. I didn't care that he broke some league rule to return to Vancouver where he had played as a player. Many of us respected him for that.

Him coaching the Olympic gold medal winning team in Salt Lake was just icing on the cake of his career.

VanIslander is online now  
Old
05-15-2005, 08:36 PM
  #10
Hasbro
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Hasbro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Rectangle
Country: Sami
Posts: 29,644
vCash: 500
If we drag his playing days into this, he made a notorious hit on Bobby Orr that damn near got him tarred and feathered in Boston.

Hasbro is online now  
Old
05-15-2005, 09:39 PM
  #11
DaveMatthew
Registered User
 
DaveMatthew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seattle
Country: United States
Posts: 6,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS
The only thing that could keep Quinn out of the HHOF is the murky LA-Vancouver move, which was admittedly inexcusable. And the lack of a Cup ... but he was so close in 1980 and 1994 that can probably be overlooked.

Otherwise, he'd probably be a HHOF lock. Only Irvin, Arbour, and Bowman have won more games as an NHL head coach. 2 Adams awards, finalist a couple other times. Olympic gold medal. Everywhere he's gone except the LA stop he did a terrific job. How many guys have been top NHL head coaches in 4 different decades?

Roger Neilson was a nice guy, but Quinn's coaching credentials blow Neilson's out of the water. If Neilson is in the HHOF, Quinn should be too whether people like him or not.
I think Neilson is in the HOF because of the influence he's had on the game. For example, he changed the way hockey is coached by implementing video.

While Quinn has more wins, he did not change the way hockey is coached and Roger did that.

DaveMatthew is offline  
Old
05-15-2005, 10:00 PM
  #12
Legionnaire
Kill! Jeff, Kill!!!
 
Legionnaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: LA-LA Land
Country: United States
Posts: 34,937
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
If we drag his playing days into this, he made a notorious hit on Bobby Orr that damn near got him tarred and feathered in Boston.
In retrospect, that hit was no worse than the one that Stevens laid on Lindros.

__________________
I love you all.
Legionnaire is offline  
Old
05-15-2005, 10:54 PM
  #13
Vinceee
Go Foreurs Go!
 
Vinceee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Amos, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,411
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Vinceee
Pat Quinn is overrated...

His biggest error was during SLC OG 2002 during the first game... He benched Brodeur instead of Joseph...
You must be blind to think that Joseph is better than Brodeur even in 2002

Vinceee is offline  
Old
05-15-2005, 11:02 PM
  #14
SwisshockeyAcademy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,094
vCash: 500
Neilson and Quinn are not in the same class in any way. Not now , not ever. Questioning Roger's induction to the hall is reprehensible.

SwisshockeyAcademy is offline  
Old
05-15-2005, 11:27 PM
  #15
Habsfan 32
Registered User
 
Habsfan 32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Way up north...
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,319
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Habsfan 32 Send a message via MSN to Habsfan 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Given his history, it is an embarassment he is allowed to represent Canada.

Name the only non-player ever expelled from the NHL for dishonourable conduct. Surprise it is Pat Quinn.

It was about 18 years ago that NHL President John Ziegler expelled and banned Pat Quinn for life from the NHL for conduct prejudicial to the league during the infamous Quinngate affair. How soon we forget.

If it was only an isolated incident, it may have been possible to just say it was an error in judgment; but this was one of three major ethical lapses by Quinn as a coach and manager.

Pat Quinn was coach of the LA Kings during the 1986-87 season. While still coaching that team, under contract to the Kings and negotiating with the Kings for a contract extension of his coaching contract, he entered into mid-season negotiations with the Vancouver Canucks.

On December 11, 1986 he reached an agreement in principle with Vancouver to become GM and President. On December 24,1986 he signed a contract with Vancouver to commence on June 1,1987 as President and GM. On January 2, 1987 while coaching LA and while in Vancouver to play the Canucks, an envelope containing a cheque for $100,000 was delivered to him by a Canuck trainer to seal the deal while he was conducting a practice in preparation for the upcoming game with the Canucks. At that point in the season LA and Vancouver were locked in a struggle to make the play-offs.

Quinn then returned to LA and arranged a lunch with Rogie Vachon, GM of the Kings. Vachon assumed the meeting was to finalize and sign Quinn's coaching contract extension. When Quinn told Vachon he had signed with the Canucks (but not about the $100,000 payment), Vachon was flabbergasted and stormed out of the restaurant, immediately calling Jerry Buss, the owner. After a few days delay, Buss called John Zeigler who became involved.

Meanwhile rumours of the Quinn signing were surfacing in the Vancouver media. Zeigler then called Canucks owner who was in Hawaii on vacation who confirmed the signing and revealed that Quinn had received the $100,00 signing bonus to seal the deal.

Zeigler was outraged and immediately expelled Pat Quinn from the NHL for dishonourable conduct on January 9, 1987. Pat Quinn would later say he never even considered how the public might perceive his conduct in accepting a $100,000 signing bonus from the Vancouver Canucks while he was still under contract to the Los Angeles Kings. He said that he felt that he had done nothing wrong. This from a person (Quinn), who had just completed his law degree and was in the process of seeking admission to the California State Bar. BTW he was not admitted to the State Bar.

The statement from Ziegler expelling Quinn said:

"Mr. Quinn is directly responsible for the preparation and conduct of the Los Angeles Kings' NHL game competitions. Despite these responsibilities, he has committed himself to assume the responsibilities of a general manager for a competing team in this league, has accepted money from them and yet has continued to attempt to discharge his responsibilities to the Los Angeles Kings. Effective immediately, and until further notice to the contrary, Mr. Patrick Quinn is expelled from the National Hockey League and may not be employee by any member club of the league or involved in any further activities on behalf of the league or any of its member clubs."

Zeigler then appointed NHL chief legal counsel, Gil Stein to investigate the case fully and report back to him. After reviewing the report Ziegler fined the Vancouver Canucks $310,000 which represented 31 days from the time of the agreement in principle of December 11, 1986 until Quinn was expelled by Ziegler. Quinn was banned from joining the Canucks as GM until after the both LA and Vancouver were out of the play-offs and prohibited from coaching for three years.

The Canucks and Quinn appealed the decision to the league Board of Governors and the appeal was dismissed. They then appealed to the BC Supreme Court. The Justice ruled that Ziegler had overstepped his bounds by fining the Canucks for 31 separate counts each at $10,000 per day and reduced the fine to $10,000. However he ruled that Ziegler was wholly within his jurisdiction to deal with Quinn in the manner he had done and declined to interfere in the discipline meted out by Ziegler to Pat Quinn.

A reporter would later ask Quinn, if his decision to accept the Canucks' overture was out of character, Quinn said: "I'd like to think that's the case."

Unfortunately it appears totally in character as, during his court appeal, evidence was filed showing that he had connived to keep his former contract to coach the Kings secret after being fired by the Flyers in 1985. By keeping the Kings contract-signing secret, he was able to obtain a further $50,000 as damages from the Flyers for his firing. Had he been truthful, he would not legally have been entitled to that payment. The Flyers management were furious when they learned of his deception and the Kings were not blameless either as they conspired with him to keep the deal under wraps. The Kings then should not have been surprised when Quinn did the same thing to them – they knew his predilections.

Interestingly Quinngate came back to haunt Quinn during the Vladimir Krutov transfer fee dispute hearing held in Stockholm which ended up costing the Canucks about $1.3 million when the Arbitrator found Vancouver liable for the last two years of the transfer fee payments to the Russian Ice Hockey authorities for signing Krutov. Quinn’s credibility was destroyed when he was unable to explain to the satisfaction of the Arbitrator how it was that the Canucks were also reneging on the transfer fee payments for Igor Larionov although they had not cut him from the team. Quinn claimed he was of good character and was then faced with the facts of Quinngate to show his bad character.

In a desperate last minute maneuver to shore up their crumbling case, the Canucks mere days before the hearing paid up the missed Larionov payments and in fact pre-paid the next installments. Quinn had loudly proclaimed his honesty and integrity when trying to explain the Larionov situation. Once Quinn did that, he opened up his character to question and the whole sordid Quinngate affair was laid out for the Arbitrator to see.

The Canucks defense to not paying the transfer fees for Krutov rested on two grounds. Firstly the Krutov standard NHL playing contract with the Vancouver Canucks was collateral to the transfer fee agreement with the Russian hockey authorites (sort of sub-contract). The Canucks claimed that Krutov by allegedly breaching that contract by not being in shape as alleged by the Canucks, resulted in the Canucks being able to avoid the further transfer fees under the contract with the Russian authorities (of course the Larionov transfer fee situation did not go a long way to helping the Canucks case).

The Canucks missed the major requirement to claim this was a collateral contract – Krutov was not party to the transfer fee agreement and as the Arbitrator pointed out it was first year law student knowledge that collateral contracts must be between the same parties. Interestingly neither Burke with his law degree from Harvard nor Quinn with his just completed law degree from the University of Philadeplhia picked up on this rather obvious defect in their case. DUH!

The second defense was that Quinn alleged that he had an oral promise from the Russians that they would forgive the last two years of the transfer fees if either Krutov or Larionov did not stay with the team. The Russians denied that they had ever made such a promise. Again basic contract law generally prevents a party from going outside the signed contract clauses and like most contracts it also provided that all previous negotiations, discussions and agreements are void. Quinn then tried to claim that in fact this promise was given after the contracts were all signed and again the Russians denied this occurred. Again courts do not usually allow such claims but there are some exceptions. Even if an exception were to be made, it would require Quinn’s word to be preferred against that of the Russian negotiators. Given Quinngate and Quinn’s own abysmal performance in explaining the Larionov transfer fee situation, the Arbitrator had little trouble in dismissing Quinn’s credibility out of hand.

This portion of Quinn’s testimony under cross-examination by counsel for the Russian hockey authorities is priceless and it was published in the Vancouver Province on February 26, 1992 under the headline QUINN: 'WE MESSED UP HERE' - THE KRUTOV RULING: THE TRANSCRIPTS


Quinn was President and GM and Krutov and Larionov at the time were the most expensive players under contract to the Canucks and they were in fact the only two player contracts that Quinn had ever negotiated according to his own evidence. Do you not find it incredible he did not know precisely what was going on regarding the missed transfer fees? The Arbitrator certainly did.

And this is the sort of person we chose to represent Canada. Sad, very sad.

Maybe we should bring Alan Eagleson back to organize the team for Hockey Canada? Quinn and Eagleson - birds of a feather.
Thanks for the story. I was not aware of this simply because I'm too young.

Habsfan 32 is offline  
Old
05-16-2005, 02:15 AM
  #16
Yammer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Republic of East Van
Posts: 2,244
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
Over rated? Under appriecated? over hyped because he plays for the center of the universe in Canada (toronto)?
I appreciate that he brings uptempo hockey with him. As a coach and coach/manager, especially in Vancouver which was a full Quinn rebuild job, he brought in a lot of quick guys and assembled teams with good attack. He doesn't make trap teams.

In terms of personality, Quinn has a certain authoritative aura around him in terms of appearance and demeanour. This serves him well as coach.

What I don't like: he argues with officials, which only gets the team labelled as whiners. As tempting as it must be to give it to the zebras, I don't like to see that from coaches.

As a manager, he made a few blunders with the Nucks, most or many of them having to do with the center position. He blew a first rounder on Libor Polasek, an asthematic who never played in the NHL. He failed to qualify Cliff Ronning, who walked as a UFA to Phoenix, and filled the position with waiver wire scrubs. He couldn't agree to terms with Petr Nedved and then badmouthed the players' agent in the press. The need for a replacement centre forced him to trade a pretty good winger (Dixon Ward) for the prematurely washed up and generally unpopular (nickname "the republican") Jimmy Carson. He thought Jesse Belanger was better than Martin Straka. Later, his boss sent him to land Gretzky and blew that deal with an insulting time-limited ultimatum in the middle of the night, causing an irate Gretzky to sign with the Rags. Quinn then badmouthed TGO to the press. There were shenanigans with Pavel Bure's contract, sneakily switching to Canadian dollars after the Russian agreed to terms on price. (Allegedly.)

Yammer is offline  
Old
05-16-2005, 10:31 AM
  #17
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yammer
I appreciate that he brings uptempo hockey with him. As a coach and coach/manager, especially in Vancouver which was a full Quinn rebuild job, he brought in a lot of quick guys and assembled teams with good attack. He doesn't make trap teams.

In terms of personality, Quinn has a certain authoritative aura around him in terms of appearance and demeanour. This serves him well as coach.

What I don't like: he argues with officials, which only gets the team labelled as whiners. As tempting as it must be to give it to the zebras, I don't like to see that from coaches.

As a manager, he made a few blunders with the Nucks, most or many of them having to do with the center position. He blew a first rounder on Libor Polasek, an asthematic who never played in the NHL. He failed to qualify Cliff Ronning, who walked as a UFA to Phoenix, and filled the position with waiver wire scrubs. He couldn't agree to terms with Petr Nedved and then badmouthed the players' agent in the press. The need for a replacement centre forced him to trade a pretty good winger (Dixon Ward) for the prematurely washed up and generally unpopular (nickname "the republican") Jimmy Carson. He thought Jesse Belanger was better than Martin Straka. Later, his boss sent him to land Gretzky and blew that deal with an insulting time-limited ultimatum in the middle of the night, causing an irate Gretzky to sign with the Rags. Quinn then badmouthed TGO to the press. There were shenanigans with Pavel Bure's contract, sneakily switching to Canadian dollars after the Russian agreed to terms on price. (Allegedly.)
Ronning was 31 when he left the Canucks, I'll assume that the rest of your information is just as accurate.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
05-16-2005, 11:25 AM
  #18
joepeps
Registered User
 
joepeps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Italy
Posts: 11,783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
Have to agree there. His handling of the goaltending in Salt Lake damn near sunk the team. I'm convinced a big reason Roy declined the team was it was obvious Quinn wanted CuJo in net.

Always reminded me of Den Nelson of the NBA.

wow your wrong on that... Quinn let Cujo hi and dry in the Olmpics.. he put him in against the Strong Sweeds and Cuju let 1 bad goal in the rest were the teams fault.. he pretty much ****ed Cujo over thats why he left even tho they offered him more money than Detriot..

joepeps is offline  
Old
05-16-2005, 11:52 AM
  #19
Hasbro
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Hasbro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Rectangle
Country: Sami
Posts: 29,644
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joepeps
wow your wrong on that... Quinn let Cujo hi and dry in the Olmpics.. he put him in against the Strong Sweeds and Cuju let 1 bad goal in the rest were the teams fault.. he pretty much ****ed Cujo over thats why he left even tho they offered him more money than Detriot..
After he got shelled by Sweden.

Hasbro is online now  
Old
05-16-2005, 12:11 PM
  #20
cleduc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,799
vCash: 500
I think Cujo was the hotter of the two goalies going into the Olympics which affected the decision.

As for the Quinn story, I don't think it all got told: Ziegler also fined the Kings $130,000 for not informing the NHL of the Quinn signing.

"Pat Quinn (the Kings' coach) was suspended that year. He signed a contract with the Vancouver Canucks. Sometimes they treat you like kids - well, we are kids because we're playing a game, but we have to be treated better than that. The ownership said, 'It's no big deal; don't worry about it,' but it killed our team. That's when Luc Robitaille and Jimmy Carson came in. What took place with Pat Quinn was unacceptable. It was okay for Pat but I thought the ownership did not stand up at the time to make a decision. We were in chaos and I just figured, 'Here we go again.' I was tired of getting up everyday to work for some people who just can't make decisions that players are waiting for." Marcel Dionne

cleduc is offline  
Old
05-16-2005, 12:21 PM
  #21
SENSible1*
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,543
vCash: 500
Hey, Wettie and I share an opinion.

Quinn is a lying, whining, cheating sack of crap.

I hate the fact that he has been choosen to represent Canada in the past and even moreso because the talented team and assistant coaches he was given allowed him to recieve credit for their success.

SENSible1* is offline  
Old
05-16-2005, 12:24 PM
  #22
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Hey, Wettie and I share an opinion.

Quinn is a lying, whining, cheating sack of crap.

I hate the fact that he has been choosen to represent Canada in the past and even moreso because the talented team and assistant coaches he was given allowed him to recieve credit for their success.
1996, 1998...

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
05-16-2005, 12:48 PM
  #23
Hasbro
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Hasbro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Rectangle
Country: Sami
Posts: 29,644
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleduc
I think Cujo was the hotter of the two goalies going into the Olympics which affected the decision.
Roy was coming off the Conn Smythe and Brodeur had been in the finals the past two years. Meanwhile CuJo had limited success in the playoffs and his last international apearance was a disaster (choiking in the 96 world cup). The degree of cronyism exhibited by Gretz and Quinn on Team Canada rubbed me the wrong way.

Hasbro is online now  
Old
05-16-2005, 12:57 PM
  #24
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
Roy was coming off the Conn Smythe and Brodeur had been in the finals the past two years. Meanwhile CuJo had limited success in the playoffs and his last international apearance was a disaster (choiking in the 96 world cup). The degree of cronyism exhibited by Gretz and Quinn on Team Canada rubbed me the wrong way.
Cujo did excel against Sweden in the '96 World Cup, so maybe that had something to do with him playing the first game.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
05-16-2005, 01:05 PM
  #25
ACC1224
Burke was right.
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 27,928
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Hey, Wettie and I share an opinion.

Quinn is a lying, whining, cheating sack of crap.

I hate the fact that he has been choosen to represent Canada in the past and even moreso because the talented team and assistant coaches he was given allowed him to recieve credit for their success.

ACC1224 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:06 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.