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Claude Julien: The Sequel

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Old
06-10-2013, 10:22 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by EastCoastNiner View Post
The problem isn't that you have a different opinion, but rather that you keep trying to diminish his accomplishments by saying that he was close to elimination multiple times (who hasn't been?), and like to keep talking about his "ho hum" performances along with Thomas/Rask playing extremely well.

For things Claude has done poorly in most peoples eyes, you like to really stress those points as if most coaches haven't had similar struggles in some regards.

For things he's done well (pretty much everything), you like to diminish those things by saying that he was saved by Thomas/Rask, "a couple pucks go in here and there", and that he's been involved in many close series.

You can nitpick those close series he's come out on top of all you want, but the fact of the matter is that he won those series.


Assuming you are a Patriots fan, I am left with no choice but to assume you think Belichick is over-rated and not that great of a coach, and that Brady is over-rated and not that great of a player.

We all know the Patriots ONLY beat the Rams by a score of 20-10.

We all know the Patriots ONLY beat the Panthers by a score of 32-29.

We all know the Patriots ONLY beat the Eagles by a score of 24-21.


Oh, the horror! They just "barely" won those games. They must be unbelievable over-rated if they didn't win their Super Bowls in blowouts. That is the exact same thing you are saying.
I do think Belichick is past his peak and a lot of his success in personnel can be attributed to Pioli and Dimitroff. His refusal to adjust probably cost him the first Giants SB. He's had quite a run with maybe the greatest QB of them all. Won 3 out of 5 SBs and now nothing since losing his 2 wingmen to KC and Atlanta.

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06-11-2013, 03:02 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by BNHL View Post
I do think Belichick is past his peak and a lot of his success in personnel can be attributed to Pioli and Dimitroff. His refusal to adjust probably cost him the first Giants SB. He's had quite a run with maybe the greatest QB of them all. Won 3 out of 5 SBs and now nothing since losing his 2 wingmen to KC and Atlanta.
I think you missed the point.

I'm saying, from around 2000-2006, I'm left to assume that you believed Belichick was not that good and was over-rated because the Patriots won each of those Super Bowls by three points each.

That's exactly the same thing you're saying about Julien and his near encounters to elimination and close wins.

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06-11-2013, 03:14 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by EastCoastNiner View Post
I think you missed the point.

I'm saying, from around 2000-2006, I'm left to assume that you believed Belichick was not that good and was over-rated because the Patriots won each of those Super Bowls by three points each.

That's exactly the same thing you're saying about Julien and his near encounters to elimination and close wins.
I would never bring up snow bowl or spygate or the "tuck" rule. The original point which is so offensive is that literally one goal in 2011 or one more Toronto goal in 2013 and Claude's legend is what? The almost was greatest coach? BTW,I think Claude's a much better coach now than pre Jan 2011.

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06-11-2013, 03:41 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by BNHL View Post
I would never bring up snow bowl or spygate or the "tuck" rule. The original point which is so offensive is that literally one goal in 2011 or one more Toronto goal in 2013 and Claude's legend is what? The almost was greatest coach? BTW,I think Claude's a much better coach now than pre Jan 2011.
I think the problem people are having with some of your posts is that EVERY single coach has had "what ifs". I completely agree with you that the Bruins were on the brink of elimination during the first round in 2011 and this season, but they got it done. I think you're putting way too much stock into how pretty they got it done, and how close the games were. It doesn't really matter how the coach and team get it done as long as they do.

In today's NHL, you're going to be hard pressed to find many teams that will just steamroll their way through the playoffs with no close encounters. It just seems like you keep pointing out a lot of close encounters with elimination that this team has had under Julien, yet a lot of those close encounters have ended up with the Bruins advancing.

There are no 70's Habs, 80's Islanders, and 80's Oilers in today's NHL, so I don't see the need to nitpick at how Julien has gotten it done.

At the end of the day, I understand that your stance is that if the Bruins lost to the Canadiens in 2011, he might not be here, and if the Bruins lost to the Maple Leafs this year (assuming he would be here), he might have been fired. However, the Bruins won those series under him, and there's nothing that can take those accomplishments away from him, no matter how "close" those two series were.

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06-11-2013, 04:20 PM
  #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BNHL View Post
I would never bring up snow bowl or spygate or the "tuck" rule. The original point which is so offensive is that literally one goal in 2011 or one more Toronto goal in 2013 and Claude's legend is what? The almost was greatest coach? BTW,I think Claude's a much better coach now than pre Jan 2011.
One correct line change and the 1979 Bruins beat the Habs and end a dynasty. Is the Habs late 1970's dynasty not 'as great' because of that?

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06-11-2013, 04:23 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by EastCoastNiner View Post
I think the problem people are having with some of your posts is that EVERY single coach has had "what ifs". I completely agree with you that the Bruins were on the brink of elimination during the first round in 2011 and this season, but they got it done. I think you're putting way too much stock into how pretty they got it done, and how close the games were. It doesn't really matter how the coach and team get it done as long as they do.

In today's NHL, you're going to be hard pressed to find many teams that will just steamroll their way through the playoffs with no close encounters. It just seems like you keep pointing out a lot of close encounters with elimination that this team has had under Julien, yet a lot of those close encounters have ended up with the Bruins advancing.

There are no 70's Habs, 80's Islanders, and 80's Oilers in today's NHL, so I don't see the need to nitpick at how Julien has gotten it done.

At the end of the day, I understand that your stance is that if the Bruins lost to the Canadiens in 2011, he might not be here, and if the Bruins lost to the Maple Leafs this year (assuming he would be here), he might have been fired. However, the Bruins won those series under him, and there's nothing that can take those accomplishments away from him, no matter how "close" those two series were.
Yes, Initially I was just pointing out the very fine line between greatness and failure in this situation. Claude's brilliant but 1 goal in 2011 probably saved his job and his legacy. 2 weeks ago,Lucic finally shows up,takes over a game and voila the system is the key.

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06-11-2013, 04:25 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by finchster View Post
One correct line change and the 1979 Bruins beat the Habs and end a dynasty. Is the Habs late 1970's dynasty not 'as great' because of that?
Kind of like reading Rob Brown's or Kevin Steven's stats. Makes them look great. Good fortune.

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06-16-2013, 02:48 AM
  #483
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As usual, Julien made the proper adjustments and the Bruins ended up with a big win.

Keep on doubting him people (a lot less now though)..................

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06-16-2013, 02:54 AM
  #484
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That line swap he made tonight won the the game, and MIGHT be the answer they've been looking for on the 3rd line all season.

Personally, I'd like to see him scratch Dauguvins for Caron, but if Dog's playing 4th line minutes with Peverley and Thornton, can't really complain.

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06-16-2013, 06:43 AM
  #485
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Again, I will mention, that some how CJ has left alone what we all wanted to tinker with for far longer than most of us could stand to watch without saying something needed to be done...


...and give examples!


Then he did something none of us had thought of...


...and it worked?

Jagr up and down the lines and on the bench, Dog out - Yeti in, Pevs traded to the Hawks mid game ... everything explored.


Well everything but a line of Seguin - Kelly and Paille

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06-16-2013, 08:09 AM
  #486
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That line swap he made tonight won the the game, and MIGHT be the answer they've been looking for on the 3rd line all season.

Personally, I'd like to see him scratch Dauguvins for Caron, but if Dog's playing 4th line minutes with Peverley and Thornton, can't really complain.
ya this big time

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06-16-2013, 11:10 AM
  #487
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Great job by Clode last night. I'd pay to hear the 1st intermission "chat" that he referred to.

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06-16-2013, 01:18 PM
  #488
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Caude has outcoached every coach in the playoffs thus far in terms of using personnel and bench coaching. The Toronto series meltdown is all on the players as far as I'm concerned. They put themselves in a great position to take the series easily but got complacent. Torts was outmatched in the NYR series. Bylsma was flat-out embarrassed by CJ to the point Pens fans were calling for Bylsma's head even more than they had before the series started. And so far Claude has made key moves in the finals to put to the Bs in a great position to win both games.

Claude doesn't rely on reaming his team out during intermissions or give rah rah speeches, and that is one of the reasons he hasn't lost the room. He is methodical, calm, and confident in his approach. That alone gives him the capital he needs to motivate the personalities on this team. He told the team last night during the first intermission what they needed to correct -- skate better -- and that's what they did. You can tell in interviews that this group believes in Claude and are willing to do what he wants in order to win.

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06-16-2013, 01:25 PM
  #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRull86 View Post
That line swap he made tonight won the the game, and MIGHT be the answer they've been looking for on the 3rd line all season.

Personally, I'd like to see him scratch Dauguvins for Caron, but if Dog's playing 4th line minutes with Peverley and Thornton, can't really complain.
It wasn't the line swap that did it.

It was the change in strategy after seeing his team narrowly escape a first period with only a 1-0 score.

Floored me.

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06-17-2013, 11:41 PM
  #490
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This thread shall not die.

Julien is doing a masterful job leading this team right now. All of his detractors can just be quiet now.

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06-18-2013, 06:46 AM
  #491
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Claude Julien....top 3 coach in the league. EVEN when he was struggling in the other 2 cities who were too dumb to retain him. I keep saying it in this boards while people wanted him out.....STill waiting for a Apologies to Claude Julien thread....Give the guy a 10-year extension.

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06-18-2013, 09:26 AM
  #492
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I think CJ deserves a lot of praise for the way he's handled Krug in the Final so far, most of everyone thought he'd have him riding pine after that bad mistake in G1,but Claude showed a lot of confidence in him and has kept putting him back out there and Krug has been playing very well since.

CJ is an excellent coach and he knows this team and these players, he's a very good people manager and knows which buttons to push to get the most out of his guys.

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06-18-2013, 11:41 AM
  #493
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In Claude I trust.

If they go all the way, with two Cups in three years, Claude should be a made man in Boston forever.

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06-18-2013, 01:45 PM
  #494
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In Claude I trust.

If they go all the way, with two Cups in three years, Claude should be a made man in Boston forever.
Like Terry Francona.

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06-18-2013, 01:57 PM
  #495
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Like Terry Francona.
As someone that doesn't follow baseball that closely, I have to ask: did fans want him fired, or was it just management that wanted the change? The little interaction that I have with baseball fans seems to indicate that they still like/support Francona, but I'm not sure if they're the norm or not.

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06-18-2013, 02:32 PM
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As someone that doesn't follow baseball that closely, I have to ask: did fans want him fired, or was it just management that wanted the change? The little interaction that I have with baseball fans seems to indicate that they still like/support Francona, but I'm not sure if they're the norm or not.
I loved Francona but baseball players are an entitled bunch and they obviously lost respect for him. Kind of a like a dog that loves you but won't obey you. Only choices were to rid themselves of some top players or start over with a new manager,one who was considered more of a disciplinarian. Great coaches lose clubhouses when they become too familiar. I hated the fact that it was time for a change.

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06-18-2013, 02:32 PM
  #497
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As someone that doesn't follow baseball that closely, I have to ask: did fans want him fired, or was it just management that wanted the change? The little interaction that I have with baseball fans seems to indicate that they still like/support Francona, but I'm not sure if they're the norm or not.
The vast majority of fans loved Francona and still do.

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06-18-2013, 03:09 PM
  #498
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I loved Francona but baseball players are an entitled bunch and they obviously lost respect for him. Kind of a like a dog that loves you but won't obey you. Only choices were to rid themselves of some top players or start over with a new manager,one who was considered more of a disciplinarian. Great coaches lose clubhouses when they become too familiar. I hated the fact that it was time for a change.
I think comparing Francona and Julien is like comparing apples and oranges. Like you said, baseball players are an entitled bunch. They expect to have everything handed to them (well, most) and take off games for the slightest little things. Albeit, they play twice as many games, but still exert half as much. Hockey players in general get paid significantly less per year to put themselves in a much larger way of harm. Baseball players will sit out games for some pretty pathetic reasons that wouldn't even be given a second-thought in hockey. Hockey players have to work extremely hard to get those extra bucks, and slacking off will cost them. Comparatively, as long as you occasionally bring it in baseball, your monetary reward will be significantly more than that of a hockey player (see: Drew, JD).

That being said, it doesn't mean hockey players don't check out on their coaches. However, the parity in hockey means what Julien is doing is infinitely more impressive. The same general teams do well in baseball: the ones with money and the ones who draft well. You see occasional surges from a team that drafts well, and then is forced to rebuild. The money teams are always in contention. In hockey, that is not true. The skill gap between the best players and the average players isn't that significant. It's noticeable, but unlike other sports, putting together a team of stars doesn't guarantee success.

Which gets to my point on how CRUCIAL coaching is in hockey. Claude Julien's ability not only to succesfully coach this team, in a league filled with parity, without less so a team filled with stars and more a team based on teamwork, further attributes to Claude Julien's success and the impressiveness of how he has done it. Francona, on the other hand, was undoubtedly handed a team filled with high-paid stars and coached them to a few titles. That in itself is much less difficult when it is a league defined by dominant stars and not nearly as teamwork oriented. And when he wasn't able to handle the chaos that those high-profiled players caused, he was gone. Julien hasn't necessarily hasn't necessarily had to do deal with the high priced talent, he has dealt with worse. The fans and the media. The fans and media always loved Francona, because he won. Julien has done the same, but he hasn't had them on his side.


I think when it's all said and done, we as Boston fans have been very fortunate to have 4 great coaches in this town: Doc Rivers, Bill Belichick, Claude Julien, and Terry Francona. All will have varying legacies, and so far, 2 are leaving town with tarnished legacies, and well Belichick is finally done, he won't be perfect either. Claude has had the struggle from the beginning, and I think he may be the one who goes in the opposite direction. From disliked to idealized.

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06-18-2013, 03:28 PM
  #499
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I remember a similar thread in 2011..

I also remember that after winning the Cup that year that no one would ever be able to seriously want him fired again..

But here we are again.. before the Toronto come back we had the stupid anti-Claude avatars out in full force and once again he has led this Bruins team to the Stanley Cup Finals and now everyone loves him again (as they should in my opinion.. by the way this doesn't mean I don't think people shouldn't be critical)

In less than 2 years the cycle will repeat itself unfortunately. For now though, go Julien!

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06-18-2013, 03:57 PM
  #500
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I think comparing Francona and Julien is like comparing apples and oranges. Like you said, baseball players are an entitled bunch. They expect to have everything handed to them (well, most) and take off games for the slightest little things. Albeit, they play twice as many games, but still exert half as much. Hockey players in general get paid significantly less per year to put themselves in a much larger way of harm. Baseball players will sit out games for some pretty pathetic reasons that wouldn't even be given a second-thought in hockey. Hockey players have to work extremely hard to get those extra bucks, and slacking off will cost them. Comparatively, as long as you occasionally bring it in baseball, your monetary reward will be significantly more than that of a hockey player (see: Drew, JD).

That being said, it doesn't mean hockey players don't check out on their coaches. However, the parity in hockey means what Julien is doing is infinitely more impressive. The same general teams do well in baseball: the ones with money and the ones who draft well. You see occasional surges from a team that drafts well, and then is forced to rebuild. The money teams are always in contention. In hockey, that is not true. The skill gap between the best players and the average players isn't that significant. It's noticeable, but unlike other sports, putting together a team of stars doesn't guarantee success.

Which gets to my point on how CRUCIAL coaching is in hockey. Claude Julien's ability not only to succesfully coach this team, in a league filled with parity, without less so a team filled with stars and more a team based on teamwork, further attributes to Claude Julien's success and the impressiveness of how he has done it. Francona, on the other hand, was undoubtedly handed a team filled with high-paid stars and coached them to a few titles. That in itself is much less difficult when it is a league defined by dominant stars and not nearly as teamwork oriented. And when he wasn't able to handle the chaos that those high-profiled players caused, he was gone. Julien hasn't necessarily hasn't necessarily had to do deal with the high priced talent, he has dealt with worse. The fans and the media. The fans and media always loved Francona, because he won. Julien has done the same, but he hasn't had them on his side.


I think when it's all said and done, we as Boston fans have been very fortunate to have 4 great coaches in this town: Doc Rivers, Bill Belichick, Claude Julien, and Terry Francona. All will have varying legacies, and so far, 2 are leaving town with tarnished legacies, and well Belichick is finally done, he won't be perfect either. Claude has had the struggle from the beginning, and I think he may be the one who goes in the opposite direction. From disliked to idealized.
I disagree with so much here,I don't know where to begin.

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