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jagr's legacy if bruins take the cup?

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05-17-2013, 11:08 AM
  #1
steveott
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jagr's legacy if bruins take the cup?

does it change anything (legacy) if jags gets one more ring and will end up with 200 playoff points?


Last edited by steveott: 05-17-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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05-17-2013, 11:14 AM
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How should it change? He's already going down as one of the best to ever play the game.

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05-17-2013, 11:21 AM
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steveott
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How should it change? He's already going down as one of the best to ever play the game.
lets say that we are talking about some (futile) all-time lists. you gonna find lotsa guys who keep on insisting that stevie y or mess are definetely better (and eddie shore of course)

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05-17-2013, 11:25 AM
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If he played a key role (which he hasn't so far), it would add something. But just getting another Cup ring with a middling performance doesn't really help or hurt Jagr's legacy. Same way that no one really cares about Hasek's 2nd Cup ring with the Wings in 2008 (2-2 in the 1st round and then back-up the rest of the way).

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05-17-2013, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by steveott View Post
lets say that we are talking about some (futile) all-time lists. you gonna find lotsa guys who keep on insisting that stevie y or mess are definetely better (and eddie shore of course)
Did you mean future?
That isn't likely to change if Jagr wins this year. He's already established as an all-time dominant winger, doing it through multiple decades. There isn't much that is going to move him up or down any lists at this point, though people tend to remember the recent over the past.

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05-17-2013, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
If he played a key role (which he hasn't so far), it would add something. But just getting another Cup ring with a middling performance doesn't really help or hurt Jagr's legacy. Same way that no one really cares about Hasek's 2nd Cup ring with the Wings in 2008 (2-2 in the 1st round and then back-up the rest of the way).
What he said. When people start using cup wins as an argument for player ranking, it's generally under the notion (rightly or wrongly) that the player either has/doesn't have the ability to lead/perform under pressure/step up in big situations that's required of the top players on a team in order to win the cup. Winning as a 41 year old third liner, while putting up mediocre point totals doesn't really affect the opinion of whether prime Jagr had those abilities

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05-17-2013, 12:07 PM
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Mike Farkas
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
If he played a key role (which he hasn't so far), it would add something. But just getting another Cup ring with a middling performance doesn't really help or hurt Jagr's legacy. Same way that no one really cares about Hasek's 2nd Cup ring with the Wings in 2008 (2-2 in the 1st round and then back-up the rest of the way).
This probably best sums up my thoughts on the matter. Jagr hasn't been a big impact, or even a medium impact, on either series so far. Winning another Cup certainly doesn't hurt him by any stretch of the imagination, but when you're up in the lofty company that he's already in, it takes more than being a middling player on a Cup winner to make any noteworthy movement...

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05-17-2013, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
If he played a key role (which he hasn't so far), it would add something. But just getting another Cup ring with a middling performance doesn't really help or hurt Jagr's legacy. Same way that no one really cares about Hasek's 2nd Cup ring with the Wings in 2008 (2-2 in the 1st round and then back-up the rest of the way).
Pretty much this.

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05-17-2013, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
This probably best sums up my thoughts on the matter. Jagr hasn't been a big impact, or even a medium impact, on either series so far. Winning another Cup certainly doesn't hurt him by any stretch of the imagination, but when you're up in the lofty company that he's already in, it takes more than being a middling player on a Cup winner to make any noteworthy movement...
I see. And what about character Mr.Farkas? I suppose his calming influence, cool & collected attitude in the room had absolutely no influence nor bearing on how they could come back from a deficit against Toronto the way they did? That as just some random ex-semi-superstar player playing out the string, collecting a paycheck toiling on the 3rd & 4th lines, a rather sad case no doubt huh? Yes, we'd better get out the training blades for Jaromir, about to collapse.... have the numbers so jaded your outlook that your unable to see the individual trees for the forest? This is a potentially Magical Story, and one your witness to. Id pay attention if I were you, otherwise, you might be branded as a "hack". And I love a campfire.

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05-17-2013, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
This probably best sums up my thoughts on the matter. Jagr hasn't been a big impact, or even a medium impact, on either series so far. Winning another Cup certainly doesn't hurt him by any stretch of the imagination, but when you're up in the lofty company that he's already in, it takes more than being a middling player on a Cup winner to make any noteworthy movement...
This is 100% correct.

A 3rd Stanley Cup, while being in the middle of the roster in terms of importance, isn't going to have any impact on his legacy.

His legacy is pretty much cemented right now. Alongside the likes of Lafleur, Messier, etc., in terms of all-time forwards. The only way he would clearly rise above them is putting up a Conn Smythe type performance.

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05-17-2013, 11:39 PM
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The two dumbest moves Jagr made from a legacy standpoint were:

1) He "died alive" in Pittsburgh. He should have stayed there, and played with Mario for his final years and nurtured Crosby for his beginning years, He would have been seen 180-degrees differently in terms of leadership and character.

2) He left for Russia after 2008. If he had have stayed in the NHL, he would have finished with over 2000 points, and would have probably been mentioned alongside the current *Big 4" in hockey history with that type of production (especially if you combine 2000+ points with the first point I made above).

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05-17-2013, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I see. And what about character Mr.Farkas? I suppose his calming influence, cool & collected attitude in the room had absolutely no influence nor bearing on how they could come back from a deficit against Toronto the way they did? That as just some random ex-semi-superstar player playing out the string, collecting a paycheck toiling on the 3rd & 4th lines, a rather sad case no doubt huh? Yes, we'd better get out the training blades for Jaromir, about to collapse.... have the numbers so jaded your outlook that your unable to see the individual trees for the forest? This is a potentially Magical Story, and one your witness to. Id pay attention if I were you, otherwise, you might be branded as a "hack". And I love a campfire.
For starters, Jagr was my favorite player for the vast majority of my hockey life. So, I'm well aware of his on-ice value and his off-ice demeanor and everything in between.

I'm sure he's a wealth of information for the younger players on that team. Which is why I said "middling" and not "negative". But let's say that he's all of a sudden a great leader in any way, shape or form...would that really boost his all-time perception? Having seen every second of the Bruins in these playoffs, his no goals and four assists in eight games is slightly flattering to his overall impact, in my opinion.

Re: leadership and the like. Dallas Stars fixture Loui Eriksson had this to say about Jagr's brief time there:

Quote:
I think he took a little bit too much room, the young players were a little uncertain around him. At times he was stern and sometimes he disappeared in games.
You don't have to worry about me with numbers. I will never be confused as a "stat guy"

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05-18-2013, 12:06 AM
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Killion
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You don't have to worry about me with numbers. I will never be confused as a "stat guy"
Oh indeed? I'll remember these words Mike, for I shall live forever.

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05-18-2013, 09:05 AM
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Big Phil
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Originally Posted by CoachLavi View Post
The two dumbest moves Jagr made from a legacy standpoint were:

1) He "died alive" in Pittsburgh. He should have stayed there, and played with Mario for his final years and nurtured Crosby for his beginning years, He would have been seen 180-degrees differently in terms of leadership and character.

2) He left for Russia after 2008. If he had have stayed in the NHL, he would have finished with over 2000 points, and would have probably been mentioned alongside the current *Big 4" in hockey history with that type of production (especially if you combine 2000+ points with the first point I made above).
In 2008 he had 71 points. Down from 96 in 2007 and 123 in 2006. Jagr was declining for sure. And despite a three year break from the NHL he came back in 2011-'12 as being a much different player from a production standpoint. I don't think those three missed seasons change a whole lot about him. You think he is comparable to Lemieux with those three seasons? I don't think he is and it appears he'd throw in some 60ish point seasons those years which wouldn't add a whole lot.

I think if the Bruins win the Cup this year his Cup win will look a lot like Lanny McDonald's in 1989 and Trottier's in the early 1990s. That's sort of how I look at him. A once great player with a reduced role that could go out with a cherry on top. McDonald's was his first Cup win though, which is different. But Jagr hasn't won in 21 years, so it'll be a lot like that. I don't think a lot will change about him. Just a nice memory of him at the end if he wins.

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05-19-2013, 03:29 PM
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no, this does not change his legacy. What he has accomplished speaks volumes for itself. This will only add to an already illustrious career. I have been a fan of Jags for years and was able to see him play at MSG when he was with the Rangers. Even though he is reduced to a 3rd or 4th line role, the leadership he brings to the team, is invaluable.

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05-19-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think if the Bruins win the Cup this year his Cup win will look a lot like Lanny McDonald's in 1989 and Trottier's in the early 1990s. That's sort of how I look at him. A once great player with a reduced role that could go out with a cherry on top. McDonald's was his first Cup win though, which is different. But Jagr hasn't won in 21 years, so it'll be a lot like that. I don't think a lot will change about him. Just a nice memory of him at the end if he wins.
Yeah, more similar to Trottier I would say. Trottier played more of a significant role on those Pens teams and had the experience of winning. Jagr has both experience and some production. Lanny, from what I remember didn't play much in those playoffs and didn't have much experience winning. Nonetheless, he still had experience from the 76 CC team and had been through a lot of crap in his career.

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