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Why was Coffey traded in 1992?

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05-21-2013, 10:26 AM
  #26
pdd
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I'm as big a fan of Bowman as they come and a huge critic of Coffey, but IMO it's almost impossible to justify that trade on hockey terms. That doesnt mean you can't justify it on other terms. Bowman had a habit of giving up on players for non-hockey reasons which may have served him well in creating cohesive teams but it may also have led to some missed opportunities.
Again. It can't be viewed in a vacuum; it was likely bounced with Patrick and Bowman calling LA and Philly back and forth that day.

It has to be viewed as:

Coffey+Recchi for Tocchet, K.Samuelsson, Chychrun, and Wregget.

Which is not nearly as bad. Still overpayment on the part of the Pens, but they come out with a tough and very solid defensive defenseman and a tough, point-producing all-around forward who can play all three slots. They also get a low-end starter to play backup goalie for the next six-plus years.

It's like saying that the Oilers won the Cup with key contributions from the Gretzky trade. That's not totally accurate; they won the Cup with part of the return from trading Gretzky (Gelinas), plus the return from trading the other roster player involved (Carson). It's not unlikely that Murphy and Graves were to be included in the potential Gretzky-to-Detroit deal (Sather reportedly REALLY liked them) but you don't get the "kid" line (Gelinas/Graves/Murphy) without both deals. And then there's Petr Klima, who was a throw in (likely at the behest of Wings management; he had effectively out-drank his welcome) had a pretty big impact for that 90 Oilers team also.


Last edited by pdd: 05-21-2013 at 10:34 AM.
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Old
05-21-2013, 04:27 PM
  #27
Big Phil
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Well, he gave coffey a chance in Detroit afterwards.. result? no cup
He won 4 Cups before Detroit and three Canada Cups. How on earth people figure Coffey wasn't an ingredient to winning is beyond me. Even in the 1996 World Cup he was one of Canada's best players, at 35 years old. Plus do I even need to remind people the long list of great players who loathed Scotty Bowman?

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To be fair, he scored two goals that game against Colorado. Scoring two goals and putting one in your own net is a trade off I'd take in the semis anyday.

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05-21-2013, 05:17 PM
  #28
sparr0w
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
He won 4 Cups before Detroit and three Canada Cups. How on earth people figure Coffey wasn't an ingredient to winning is beyond me. Even in the 1996 World Cup he was one of Canada's best players, at 35 years old. Plus do I even need to remind people the long list of great players who loathed Scotty Bowman?
And what were Bowman's accolades prior to dealing with Coffey? It's not like Scotty hadn't won a thing until Coffey graced his blueline and then decided to spurn him.
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To be fair, he scored two goals that game against Colorado. Scoring two goals and putting one in your own net is a trade off I'd take in the semis anyday.
I don't see too many coaches being happy with that trade off. Particularly one as defensive responsibility oriented as Bowman.

Coffey had success in firewagon offensive systems. Those aren't systems that Bowman liked. Really is as simple as that. It's a difference of philosophy and Bowman was in the position to get his way.

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05-21-2013, 06:08 PM
  #29
TheMoreYouKnow
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Again. It can't be viewed in a vacuum; it was likely bounced with Patrick and Bowman calling LA and Philly back and forth that day.

It has to be viewed as:

Coffey+Recchi for Tocchet, K.Samuelsson, Chychrun, and Wregget.
That's still a pretty major net loss for the Pens unless you were concerned about the personality of your team. Tocchet was a solid player, K. Samuelsson and Wregget were useful tools, but Coffey was still one of the elite playmaking D-men in the league and Recchi a young 100 point forward.

Bowman had good reasons to trade them away but it had little to do with their abilities as hockey players.

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05-21-2013, 06:13 PM
  #30
Dennis Bonvie
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Right - improve a team that just won the Stanley Cup.

Oh, and as I have pointed out to you before, they allowed more goals on average after Coffey left that year than before the trade.
They won the Stanley Cup because they were fortunate enough to have Coffey get injured when they were down 3-2 in the first round.

They were a much better team in the playoffs the year he was traded.

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05-21-2013, 06:30 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
They won the Stanley Cup because they were fortunate enough to have Coffey get injured when they were down 3-2 in the first round.

They were a much better team in the playoffs the year he was traded.

As much as I am a Coffey backer around here (always seem to be sticking up for players being unfairly maligned), your anti-Coffey bias is hilarious.

Here is some of how he was seen at the time, including specifically how he was regarded as a playoff performer:

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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1990 – 91
skating is unquestionably the best of Coffey skills just as Coffey is unquestionably among the NHL's top skaters. He could be no worse than second or third in terms of pure skating. His offensive ability is based on his skating, and upon his ability to handle the puck while a top speed, which is a skill almost as impressive as his skating., Taking chances and challenging where no other player could succeed… Coffey is a leader for the pens because of his Stanley cups and international experienceHe knows how to win in the playoffs, and ups his game appropriately.
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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Hockey Scouting Report 1991 – 92
whenever Scouts start describing the young offensive defenseman, the prospect is usually painted as some shade of the next Paul Coffey. That alone should indicate in what high regard coffey'soffensive skills are held throughout the hockey world.… He can tie opposing skaters into pretzels when they try to pursue him. He is just plain fast. His hand skills and his brain operate at the same high tempo as his skates. He can do an amazing variety of things at a quick pace. Coffey sees the ice very well and seldom are as outlet passes picked off. He has a featherlight touch with pass. Coffey can score from anywhere on the ice and with any kind of shot. He has the confidence and skills to penetrate deep and commands such respect that he has a lot of room to operate.

Coffey takes a lot of heat for not being an involved player, but you don't get a Stanley Cup ring for each finger by being a perimeter player. Sure Coffey is a finesse player during the regular season and may take some nights off, but when the money is on the line, Coffey is throwing his body and blocking shots. He played through most of the playoffs with an eye injury and a broken jaw. His courage is unquestioned.


Oh, and regarding that series that he was injured in against the Devils.. it was the only series that was really close for the Pens, getting behind 3-2 in the series and needing an 4-3 win in game 6 and a win in game 7 to advance... here is what they had to say about Paul Coffey in that game 7:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguins overcome adversity, Dave Molinari, The Pittsburgh Press - Apr 16, 1991
...Paul Coffey, who was expected to watch most of the playoffs - however much he could see of them - but returned in time to leave an indelible imprint on Game 7.

Coffey, sidelined since Devils defenseman Viacheslav Fetisov high-sticked him in the left eye in Game 4, was supposed to be out indefinitely. Penguins Coach Bob Johnson had penciled rooke Jim Paek into Coffey's spot for Game 7.

But after Coffey got medical clearance to play yesterday afternoon, sweater No. 77 was placed in his locker-room stall and paek was farmed out to the press box.

"As of two days ago, I couldn't play because if I got hit in the head, hemorrhaging might have started," Coffey said. "Today they said any injury that occurred would be a brand-new one. I wasn't going to miss this game unless there was a danger of losing my sight."

.
.
.

Coffey was about as good as any defenseman can be. He threw the first of several hard checks on his first shift, rushed the puck with his usual vigor and scored the fourth goal.

"I can honestly say that's one of the best games I've ever seen him play," left winger Troy Loney said. "He played great," Bourque said. "He was taking the body, playing great defensively. He was playing both ends of the ice, probably one of the best game's I've seen him play. And he's only got 1 1/2 eyes."
Enjoy!


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 05-21-2013 at 06:37 PM.
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05-21-2013, 09:17 PM
  #32
Big Phil
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And what were Bowman's accolades prior to dealing with Coffey? It's not like Scotty hadn't won a thing until Coffey graced his blueline and then decided to spurn him.
Never said Bowman wasn't. But Coffey was a champion before this too.

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I don't see too many coaches being happy with that trade off. Particularly one as defensive responsibility oriented as Bowman.

Coffey had success in firewagon offensive systems. Those aren't systems that Bowman liked. Really is as simple as that. It's a difference of philosophy and Bowman was in the position to get his way.
No coach is happy if a player shoots the puck into his own net by accident, but the sting is offset a bit if the guy scored two goals before that. People seem to point to that example time and time again with Coffey as if he did stuff like this on a regular basis. That's the myth here.

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05-22-2013, 01:54 AM
  #33
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The simple reality is that Bowman couldn't stand Coffey and vice versa. That was pretty widely reported then. And we know Bowman didn't exactly have a lot of patience for guys who didn't buy what he was selling. This was a simple shipping out of a guy he wanted to see the back of and as it is often the case with trades like that you get a terrible return.

And I don't think it was because Coffey played no D or abominal D, it's that Bowman had *exceptionally* high standards and he was a guy who certainly believed he could tickle that extra bit of quality out of guys by calling them out, applying pressure etc. and Coffey from the get-go was in no mood to take that sort of coaching (one of many players with that view throughout Bowman's career) so it's hardly surprising that the whole deal became increasingly problematic. When Bowman complained about how Coffey played D that was as much about breaking Coffey's influence and eroding his position as it was about Bowman's view on Coffey's defensive capabilities.

Personally I think it's pretty obvious that after those trades Pittsburgh was a worse team talent-wise and I doubt Bowman thought otherwise. At the same time the Penguins may have been a better team because of what the trade did to the team's structure and how it interacted with Bowman's coaching.

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05-22-2013, 02:10 AM
  #34
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
He won 4 Cups before Detroit and three Canada Cups. How on earth people figure Coffey wasn't an ingredient to winning is beyond me. Even in the 1996 World Cup he was one of Canada's best players, at 35 years old. Plus do I even need to remind people the long list of great players who loathed Scotty Bowman?
Of course Coffey could win, he was a stellar player. But he's also a player that can be difficult to build around. The type of play that makes Coffey can lead to victory is simply not a style of play Bowman could or would coach.

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05-22-2013, 06:35 AM
  #35
BraveCanadian
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Of course Coffey could win, he was a stellar player. But he's also a player that can be difficult to build around. The type of play that makes Coffey can lead to victory is simply not a style of play Bowman could or would coach.
I think this is probably closest to the mark as to why he ended up leaving Pittsburgh and Detroit.

Coffey is a higher risk higher reward type player.

The strange thing is that as he was aging in Detroit he did seem to make an effort to become a more Bowman like player - cutting down on the higher risk players etc. - and they still shipped him out again.

Although the second time was more of a hockey trade too I suppose.

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