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All Encompassing Coaching and Glen Cigar Thread Part V

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Old
05-25-2013, 11:07 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
I don't agree with this. It's a legit perspective though. Let me counter-argue...

Since Torts has come in, Sather has attempted/has bolstered the offense with guys like Gabs, Nash, etc.. and we have a few guys in the works coming up, possibly getting a shot. We have our secondary speedsters like Hags, offensive centers (SHOULD BE ****ING RICHARDS, BUT NO), and Stepan. Maybe even Brassard now too. But when he first came in, this Rangers team had much less offensive competence. I'm pretty sure we almost can agree on that.. So what I'm saying is... Maybe the team does not have to be ripped down if we hire a new coach. it seems like we now have offensive tools, a great goalie and nice defense when they aren't retarded. Maybe it's just a matter of strategies between HC's.
Here's my counter-thought to this: The system Torts put to work recently in NYR is not the system that he used in Tampa. This is most certainly not the "safe is death" hockey that he played in TB. Last year, in the last full, normal scheduled season for the Rangers, Torts came up with a game-plan that milked the most out of that lineup. The roster was built to forecheck and block shots and they did it well and with great success. This year, camp was short, players came in in disparate levels of conditioning to start, and a lot of the roster was new. It became clear pretty quickly that the game-plan needed to change to fit the new guys, but that didn't really happen. Then the Gaborik trade happened and, again, a good part of the roster was new.

The point of all of this is that the last time Torts picked a strategy for a Rangers roster, he picked the right one. This year, he clearly tried to keep that same system in place and it didn't work. I'm curious to see if he can't tweak the strategy now with a full offseason and a full camp and a roster that he's already familiar with.

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05-25-2013, 11:11 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Here's my counter-thought to this: The system Torts put to work recently in NYR is not the system that he used in Tampa. This is most certainly not the "safe is death" hockey that he played in TB. Last year, in the last full, normal scheduled season for the Rangers, Torts came up with a game-plan that milked the most out of that lineup. The roster was built to forecheck and block shots and they did it well and with great success. This year, camp was short, players came in in disparate levels of conditioning to start, and a lot of the roster was new. It became clear pretty quickly that the game-plan needed to change to fit the new guys, but that didn't really happen. Then the Gaborik trade happened and, again, a good part of the roster was new.

The point of all of this is that the last time Torts picked a strategy for a Rangers roster, he picked the right one. This year, he clearly tried to keep that same system in place and it didn't work. I'm curious to see if he can't tweak the strategy now with a full offseason and a full camp and a roster that he's already familiar with.
Hey, if he can tweak the strategy and milk it more, I'm for him staying. The team should progress, not regress. Tweakage and flexibility amongst players and coaches needs to be a thing. That being said, I realistically think this situation is what will happen next season.

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05-25-2013, 11:13 PM
  #603
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Disagreed.

It's about taking the next step.
Yep. This team needs someone who can fix their transition and special teams game. They have no idea how to run a competent breakout, nor do they know how to stop the opposition in the neutral zone. This team needs a fundamentally different voice in the room and someone who's capable of realizing when most of the veterans are plugs and some of the kids deserve a shot. We could have all of Lindberg, Hrivik, Fast, Thomas, and Miller pushing for at least a cup of coffee next year. Kreider should be tagged for a bigger role. I want a Paul MacLean type who will at least give them a fair shake instead of sticking with a bottom six stuffed with Powe, Pyatt, Dorsett, Boyle, Asham, Haley, Newbury, etc.

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05-25-2013, 11:15 PM
  #604
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Love ya Son, but your wrong. Normally you make more sense than any fifty posters in this nut house and you make some good points....but you are wrong here.

If Tort's did anything this year he convinced me more than ever that he's the guy. He and the team over came a tremendous amount of adversity. Boston was just too big, tough and talented. We need to put teams out there that have a much better balance of skill and toughness. Then and only then will we get to the finals.
This is too funny. Gotta love the internet.

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05-25-2013, 11:17 PM
  #605
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Teams played over 30 playoff games in the last 2 years. Our fan base is unrealistic.

Only reason you'd fire Torts is if you want to rip it down and start over.
You make a fair and valid point.

To counter that, though, the team has had an abysmal power play, the style of play is too demanding, as evidenced by the burnout they've experienced the last two years, because of a lack of any sustained offensive attack. They do not generate enough offense. They spend too much time on the boards, not enough attacking the net. There are a number of coaching related issues that are a cause of our playoff eliminations.

Are some of these a result of roster issues? Yes. Its symbiotic.

Can any of this change without firing Tortorella? Yes of course.

One thing is for certain, either Sullivan needs to be let go, or he needs to be relinquished of his special teams duties. This team needs a guy who can successfully formulate power play tactics.

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05-25-2013, 11:20 PM
  #606
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Teams played over 30 playoff games in the last 2 years. Our fan base is unrealistic.

Only reason you'd fire Torts is if you want to rip it down and start over.
Scarey that some people actually believe this.

Do you think that there is nothing wrong with the hockey the NYR play? No need to blow things up. We have plenty of talent the way its used needs to change.

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05-25-2013, 11:20 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Here's my counter-thought to this: The system Torts put to work recently in NYR is not the system that he used in Tampa. This is most certainly not the "safe is death" hockey that he played in TB. Last year, in the last full, normal scheduled season for the Rangers, Torts came up with a game-plan that milked the most out of that lineup. The roster was built to forecheck and block shots and they did it well and with great success. This year, camp was short, players came in in disparate levels of conditioning to start, and a lot of the roster was new. It became clear pretty quickly that the game-plan needed to change to fit the new guys, but that didn't really happen. Then the Gaborik trade happened and, again, a good part of the roster was new.

The point of all of this is that the last time Torts picked a strategy for a Rangers roster, he picked the right one. This year, he clearly tried to keep that same system in place and it didn't work. I'm curious to see if he can't tweak the strategy now with a full offseason and a full camp and a roster that he's already familiar with.
Good points but being able to adapt on the fly is something a good coach should be able to do.

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05-25-2013, 11:21 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by puckrush View Post
You make a fair and valid point.

To counter that, though, the team has had an abysmal power play, the style of play is too demanding, as evidenced by the burnout they've experienced the last two years, because of a lack of any sustained offensive attack. They do not generate enough offense. They spend too much time on the boards, not enough attacking the net. There are a number of coaching related issues that are a cause of our playoff eliminations.

Are some of these a result of roster issues? Yes. Its symbiotic.

Can any of this change without firing Tortorella? Yes of course.

One thing is for certain, either Sullivan needs to be let go, or he needs to be relinquished of his special teams duties. This team needs a guy who can successfully formulate power play tactics.
PP, and offensive schemes aren't even the main problems with Torts. The main issue, one which bleeds into every area of the Rangers play: the breakout/transition.

We have NEVER improved, on any level, in that department with Torts. I am convinced that he is incapable of implementing a proper transition in the modern NHL.

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05-25-2013, 11:33 PM
  #609
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we made two drastic roster moves this season, richards didn't play well at all and we still managed to get into the second round of the playoffs.. it takes a lot more then hank to get that done..

why fire torts? this blog sums it up...

Quote:
Fire Torts? What a joke!
Posted 10:48 PM ET | Comments 7
Teams that won a playoff round last season:

Flyers: Missed playoffs. Nobody saying fire Lavy.

Devils: Missed playoffs. Nobody saying fire Deboer

Coyotes: Missed playoffs. Nobody saying fire Tippett

Predators: Missed playoffs. Nobody saying fire Trotz

Blues: Lost in round 1. Nobody saying fire Hitchcock

Caps: Lost in round 1. Nobody saying fire Oates

Kings: Still alive.

Rangers Still alive.

But fire the only coach aside from Sutter who has won 3 playoff rounds in the last 2 years, for his "failure" of a season, a completely ass-backward season at that, with no training camp, no practice time, no depth, and a revolving door of players and injuries.

Jump aboard and drink the Haterade Rangers fans, along with an unprecedented number of talking heads calling for our coach's head including Avery, McKenzie, Savard, Hull, and Milbury.

Why? Because you don't like how he deals with the media? Because you (the big coaching expert) don't like his tactics. Because you think you know how the players feel about him?

How about the only thing that matters in this business: Results.

The only argument of value is: because the power play stinks. Fire a coach with his level of success because of that one aspect of the game?
its how we feel about richards being benched and why should it differ with torts.. the guy has had success here.. and whos out there thats better.. slats would hire a ruff or a scott gorden, or some whos a proven commodity.. and things wont change.. if we did fire torts.. we'd should go young and fresh and try something new to bring some buzz around here (which slats wont doo).. im all for firing a coach if its warranted.. but this isn't.. the guy has done things here.. and with trainning camp and the new crop of talent we have here i think we have what it takes..

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05-25-2013, 11:35 PM
  #610
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I can't argue with Kershaw anymore.

We need a coach that implements a system that plays to our strengths. Sitting back and blocking shots played to the strengths of last years team. It does not play to the strengths of this year's and beyond. We have alot of good D with offensive potential and the ability to hold onto the puck and make simple, yet effective and good plays from the backend aside from Girardi due to his lack of speed.

Get them involved. Attack as a team. Control the puck. None of this get the puck rim it hard around to boards so either our wingers get killed, get jammed up trying to fish it off the boards, it goes straight to the other team, or it's an icing. Thats our breakout right now unless our D skates it straight out and it sucks. Anyone that can't see that this is the problem and not our personnel is a dumbass that has probably never played any decent type of hockey. Look at all the teams still alive. Rimming the puck should be the absolute last option. Not the first.

Other teams go from D to wing to center or from D to wing to far side D and it's a clean exit or a pass to the other wing. Not us. That my friends is coaching. Not personnel.

The only forwards on the team that still are fitted to sell out and block shots are Stepan, Callahan and Boyle. So why is this our primary way of defending? Wanna know why we get more pucks in the face than any team in the league? A) We let too many shots get through from the point because we're not covering them half the time and B) We have forwards that dont want to sell out and actually block the shots, so they stick their sticks out instead, which, guess what! Deflects the shots upwards! Of course there are freak accidents too, but dont think this doesnt contribute to it for a second.

Again, I don't mind Tortorella staying if he comes back next year and shows me that he has implemented a new system that caters to holding onto the puck and using our talents to our advantage. Most specifically our talented defensemen in McDonagh and Moore with their speed, and Stralman and Del Zotto with their puck movement. But if he's going to keep preaching this block shots and sit back crap that no one follows and Lundqvist probably hates he should be gone.

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05-25-2013, 11:47 PM
  #611
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PP, and offensive schemes aren't even the main problems with Torts. The main issue, one which bleeds into every area of the Rangers play: the breakout/transition.

We have NEVER improved, on any level, in that department with Torts. I am convinced that he is incapable of implementing a proper transition in the modern NHL.
A major part of this is the lack of a (and I won't call it a PMD -puck moving defenseman, because IMO they are different) puck carrying/ puck rushing, defenseman with the ability to dictate the tempo of the game.

I've harped on this already, so please excuse me, but we haven't had the kind of defenseman with the IQ, foot speed, skill, vision, ability to get through the neutral zone, gain the offensive zone, and control the play from the point. Not since 2004 (Leetch).

Its a major issue. While McDonagh, Moore, Stralman are well above average skaters, they don't have that ability to take ownership of the puck and the play consistently.

We need that kind of defenseman, and IMO that should be priority number one in regards to roster transactions.

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05-25-2013, 11:57 PM
  #612
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A major part of this is the lack of a (and I won't call it a PMD -puck moving defenseman, because IMO they are different) puck carrying/ puck rushing, defenseman with the ability to dictate the tempo of the game.

I've harped on this already, so please excuse me, but we haven't had the kind of defenseman with the IQ, foot speed, skill, vision, ability to get through the neutral zone, gain the offensive zone, and control the play from the point. Not since 2004 (Leetch).

Its a major issue. While McDonagh, Moore, Stralman are well above average skaters, they don't have that ability to take ownership of the puck and the play consistently.

We need that kind of defenseman, and IMO that should be priority number one in regards to roster transactions.
Even if the Rangers had an elite puck carrying Dman, I don't think Torts would utilize him in that fashion.

Torts doesn't like his Dmen leading the rush unless it is off of a opposing team defensive breakdown or line change.

McD, Moore, and to a lesser extent Stralman are all guys who can carry a puck in the offensive zone. They are not elite per sey, but the Rangers aren't as lacking in that department as some would think.

I just think Torts would rather over utilize the stretch pass or hard arounds. He wants his Dmen in our end with our forwards extended/stationary in the neutral zone(too bad they almost never have any momentum though).

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05-26-2013, 12:07 AM
  #613
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Let's face it....Tort's system is ulcer inducing.

His only success with this team, last season, was a great regular season that lead to almost getting ousted by the 8th seeded Sens and was a Joel Ward high-stick away from being ousted in the 2nd. Even with that, the team played an embarrassing series vs. the Devils.

We watch all the games. We see how this Tort's led team is dominated for vast stretches all the time. We see how it's Henrik bailing this team out over and over. When you watch other teams play, can you honestly say their goaltenders face the same workload as Henrik? I can't. When you watch other teams on the power play or breaking out, do you see them as being more organized, like they *gasp* practice these things? I do.

I'm fine with Torts being here next year, but that's the make or break year. If this team can't put teams away in the playoffs with less than 7 games or make the finals, than Torts needs to go. As does Sather.

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05-26-2013, 12:11 AM
  #614
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why dont we try for alain vangueilt as coach

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05-26-2013, 12:22 AM
  #615
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Well, I'm sure this has been said. AV. But I think it's a dangerous choice in a way with how the nuckies have been booted twice in the first round very quickly these last two years. However he got them to the finals and home ice.

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05-26-2013, 12:45 AM
  #616
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I would rather another year of Torts than AV. I also hate Tortorella.

But at least after next year, Babcock becomes available.

I would also rather take feeler on Tippet over a guy like AV.

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05-26-2013, 12:49 AM
  #617
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Not interested in AV. He completely lost that team.

And he's an indecisive leader as evidenced by his Luongo/Schneider flip flopping.

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05-26-2013, 01:48 AM
  #618
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Well, let's be honest, this roster couldn't win a cup with Scotty Bowman as the coach. Maybe bringing in a new coach, and letting this young team grow with that coach could be a good idea; could have a team ready to contend in a few years, and all the players will have grown under this new coach. We'll see what happens. This team, as young as it is, has a decent amount of playoff experience already.

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05-26-2013, 01:52 AM
  #619
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The defensive zone strategy is awful, players sagging, no body covering the point men, always trying to bang it off the boards, no transition out of the D zone into the neutral zone, which leads to an abysmal attack. We have the best Goalie in the world, and we still feel the need to have 5 guys collapse around the Net. Stupidity at it's finest. This guy is a tool, and a terrible hockey coach.

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05-26-2013, 01:53 AM
  #620
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I don't think the Rangers were ever a team in Tortorella's image of hard-working guys. Especially the Top 6 guys. You compare it to Boston, the Bruins don't have any Top end offensive players, but the roster is a marriage made in Heaven with Julien and his coaching style. You could see it in the last series, the Bruins were a well-oiled machine compared to the Rangers who were a team at war with itself psychologically.

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05-26-2013, 01:59 AM
  #621
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I don't think the Rangers were ever a team in Tortorella's image of hard-working guys. Especially the Top 6 guys. You compare it to Boston, the Bruins don't have any Top end offensive players, but the roster is a marriage made in Heaven with Julien and his coaching style. You could see it in the last series, the Bruins were a well-oiled machine compared to the Rangers who were a team at war with itself psychologically.
Sums it up for me, excellent observation from a neutral fan.

The team isn't a fit for Tortorella any more. They are not going to be winning a ton of board battles, or generating chances down low. The team isn't filled with shot blockers anymore, either.

They need to open it up and use the neutral zone, more, use the speed of both the forwards and the D. The Rangers have some excellent skaters, but they always seem to be slow in comparison to the team they're playing. Why? Tortorella's breakout seems to kill any momentum this team has headed into the offensive/neutral zone. They always either dump it in and turn it over, or stagger in and immediately lose the ensuing battle behind the net.

This worked with last year's Ranger team, a team that severely lacked speed/passing skill, yet had a lot of strength/size, which is why the aggressive forecheck and 3-man board play worked so well.

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05-26-2013, 02:02 AM
  #622
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Sums it up for me, excellent observation from a neutral fan.

The team isn't a fit for Tortorella any more. They are not going to be winning a ton of board battles, or generating chances down low. The team isn't filled with shot blockers anymore, either.

They need to open it up and use the neutral zone, more, use the speed of both the forwards and the D. The Rangers have some excellent skaters, but they always seem to be slow in comparison to the team they're playing. Why? Tortorella's breakout seems to kill any momentum this team has headed into the offensive/neutral zone. They always either dump it in and turn it over, or stagger in and immediately lose the ensuing battle behind the net.

This worked with last year's Ranger team, a team that severely lacked speed/passing skill, yet had a lot of strength/size, which is why the aggressive forecheck and 3-man board play worked so well.
I think the personal, slowly, is transitioning into a puck possession team. I don't think Torts can coach a team like that.

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05-26-2013, 02:14 AM
  #623
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Sums it up for me, excellent observation from a neutral fan.

The team isn't a fit for Tortorella any more. They are not going to be winning a ton of board battles, or generating chances down low. The team isn't filled with shot blockers anymore, either.

They need to open it up and use the neutral zone, more, use the speed of both the forwards and the D. The Rangers have some excellent skaters, but they always seem to be slow in comparison to the team they're playing. Why? Tortorella's breakout seems to kill any momentum this team has headed into the offensive/neutral zone. They always either dump it in and turn it over, or stagger in and immediately lose the ensuing battle behind the net.

This worked with last year's Ranger team, a team that severely lacked speed/passing skill, yet had a lot of strength/size, which is why the aggressive forecheck and 3-man board play worked so well.
Yea you either make significant changes to the roster to fit the coach or fire the coach and hire someone that would be prone a philosophy that would fit better with the players on this roster.

I always thought Glen Sather's aquisitions to be strange considering who was coaching the team.

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05-26-2013, 05:22 AM
  #624
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Hank got it right. "“They did so many things really well, they’re a great team,” said goalie Henrik Lundqvist." The reason for our loose is simple. Did we do many things really well? Ehh no. Are we a great team? Ehh no. Nobody would give us those labels, they are not even close. I HATE Torts BS excuses blaming this on the top guys. Sure, they could have been better. But it's not their fault that we do not do alot of things well and that we aren't a "team".

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05-26-2013, 06:28 AM
  #625
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Sums it up for me, excellent observation from a neutral fan.

The team isn't a fit for Tortorella any more. They are not going to be winning a ton of board battles, or generating chances down low. The team isn't filled with shot blockers anymore, either.

They need to open it up and use the neutral zone, more, use the speed of both the forwards and the D. The Rangers have some excellent skaters, but they always seem to be slow in comparison to the team they're playing. Why? Tortorella's breakout seems to kill any momentum this team has headed into the offensive/neutral zone. They always either dump it in and turn it over, or stagger in and immediately lose the ensuing battle behind the net.

This worked with last year's Ranger team, a team that severely lacked speed/passing skill, yet had a lot of strength/size, which is why the aggressive forecheck and 3-man board play worked so well.
Very good post. But, I'm not someone who is reactionary, so, I'm not a big proponent of coaching changes until they are absolutely necessary. Tortorella had the arrow on this team in an upward direction until this year. In my book, he gets a full training camp to properly assess this team, and implement the proper system for this personnel. I don't see anyway Tortorella doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from management for this season considering, 1) it was a strike-shortened season with a limited training camp, 2) he is only one year removed from a trip the the ECF, and, 3) management dramatically overhauled the roster in both the off-season and at the trade deadline.

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