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All Encompassing Coaching and Glen Cigar Thread Part V

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Old
05-26-2013, 02:41 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by Cake or Death View Post
Caps this season = 15-3-0 vs their division, under .500 against the rest of the league, 4-9-2 vs our division. Ovechkin is 1.61 PPG vs his division and 0.90 vs the rest of the league. Inflated stats against a crap division does not mean much and they certainly do not have a superior roster to the Rangers. The Caps have a few very talented players on a very average team. Honestly doubt they make the playoffs next season.
The Caps were 11-1-1 down the stretch, the best record in the NHL during the month April. They were 4-9-2 in our division, but they were also 8-6-1 vs. NE, the best division this season.

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05-26-2013, 02:46 PM
  #652
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So what I got from this post is that Torts deserves no credit for the development of the younger players on the roster.
So on this side of the coin you say he's developed these players, and yes I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Yes, Torts usually gets the most out of his rosters. Carl Hagelin, Mats Zuccarello, Ryan McDonagh, John Moore, Anton Stralman, Derrick Brassard, Ryan Callahan - all of those players were either not in the NHL or played a fringe role before Torts came over. Now all of those guys are top 6 players and top 6 defenders on the Rangers roster.
And then on this side of the coin you argue that they are all garbage players. So if they're all still garbage players like you say, then what developing has Torts done?

You are the most irrational poster on this board. Ryan McDonagh would be a top pairing Defenseman on any team in the league right now. Stralman would be in the top 6 on any team. Top 4 arguable, but yet, when everyone on our team is healthy, he doesn't slot in there.

Hagelin, Callahan and Zuccarello started their NHL careers with the rangers, so for all you know they could go somewhere else and contribute even more than they have under Torts.

John Moore and Derick Brassard played on a losing team in Columbus for years. Do you really think it's just a coincidence that theyre playing better now that they're on a team that makes the playoffs consistently? They have a drive to win now, because they're seeing the results from it.


The caps have one or two very high end players, yes, but they are not a more talented hockey team than us. They are a one-trick pony in their PP. Just like we are a one-trick pony in sitting back and blocking shots due to the system, except we don't even do that very well anymore.

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05-26-2013, 03:41 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by 3rd Guy High View Post
So on this side of the coin you say he's developed these players, and yes I agree.



And then on this side of the coin you argue that they are all garbage players. So if they're all still garbage players like you say, then what developing has Torts done?

You are the most irrational poster on this board. Ryan McDonagh would be a top pairing Defenseman on any team in the league right now. Stralman would be in the top 6 on any team. Top 4 arguable, but yet, when everyone on our team is healthy, he doesn't slot in there.

Hagelin, Callahan and Zuccarello started their NHL careers with the rangers, so for all you know they could go somewhere else and contribute even more than they have under Torts.

John Moore and Derick Brassard played on a losing team in Columbus for years. Do you really think it's just a coincidence that theyre playing better now that they're on a team that makes the playoffs consistently? They have a drive to win now, because they're seeing the results from it.


The caps have one or two very high end players, yes, but they are not a more talented hockey team than us. They are a one-trick pony in their PP. Just like we are a one-trick pony in sitting back and blocking shots due to the system, except we don't even do that very well anymore.
I think what Kershaw is saying is that even after torts has developed these players into what they are now they are still not good enough or complete enough to compete against many of the top teams.

He is saying torts deserves credit compared to what they were before torts but this team doesn't have the cohesion it needs yet whether it be the from the players or the coach or both.

at least that's what I got

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05-26-2013, 03:48 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by Petey Pucks View Post
I think what Kershaw is saying is that even after torts has developed these players into what they are now they are still not good enough or complete enough to compete against many of the top teams.

He is saying torts deserves credit compared to what they were before torts but this team doesn't have the cohesion it needs yet whether it be the from the players or the coach or both.

at least that's what I got
Thank you Petey Pucks, this is exactly what I'm trying to say.

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05-26-2013, 05:50 PM
  #656
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Katie Strang wrote a good piece about the Rangers. this is the part about Torts
Quote:
1. John Tortorella’s future with the team?

Know this: John Tortorella will be back as head coach when the team reconvenes in September, and no one will be looking forward more to the resumption of his notoriously-difficult training camp than him. Not having that few weeks -- critical ones in which he prides himself on being able to cultivate a tough mindset for his team -- hurt the Rangers in a lockout-shortened season. But every other coach dealt with those limitations, too. Tortorella is not on the hot seat now with all the mitigating factors in the Rangers’ second-round exit, but he will be under the microscope next season if his team falters in a similar fashion as 2013. The fiery coach admitted his own shortcomings in failing to coax the most out of his top offensive players, and he’ll have almost four bitter months to ruminate on the how and why. Tortorella can't afford to let his stubbornness impede what the team now needs, which is a revamped style of play better suited to the personnel. His star players need room to maneuver and the leash to get creative. Whether he allows that to happen could very well determine his future with the organization.
I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded.

another part discusses the PP

Quote:
3. What to do with ailing power play?

Put plainly, the Rangers woeful power-play unit, just 4-for-44 (9.1%) was absolutely dreadful in the playoffs. For much of the regular season, too. In fact, this has been something that has hamstrung the team for years as they have searched, to no avail, for a right-handed defenseman with a big shot to quarterback their power play. That will be one of the team’s top priorities this summer, since the team’s current personnel seems incapable of turning things around themselves. The Rangers are one team that also does not employ a power-play coach – Mike Sullivan is Tortorella’s only assistant – so perhaps a specialist could be brought in to help.
Been advocating this for a while, it's time for an assistant coach to handle the offense and the PP.

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05-26-2013, 06:01 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Katie Strang wrote a good piece about the Rangers. this is the part about Torts


I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded.

another part discusses the PP



Been advocating this for a while, it's time for an assistant coach to handle the offense and the PP.
Except none of this will happen. He thinks he has it right with this BS system, and he wouldn't know how other teams play because he doesn't watch them. He admitted last summer that he didn't watch one minute of the Kings-Devils series. His stubbornness and inability to deploy a competent defensive/offensive system will just waste another year of this team's window of opportunity.

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05-26-2013, 06:05 PM
  #658
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There will be no offensive coach being brought in. It will be a futile gesture with Torts. The guy would just endlessly butt heads with the clown.

Better off cutting ties with Torts. They will just be spinning their wheels otherwise.

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05-26-2013, 06:49 PM
  #659
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Personnel wise, for the most part I love this team. Lots of skill, speed and toughness, a nice blend of veterans and youth, and one of the best goalies in hockey. But I don't see them getting better under Tortorella. Loud, brash, and volatile coaches like him have a limited shelf life as it is. They usually maximize results early on before players tune them out. I think we're now seeing diminishing returns.

What I saw this series was a Ranger team that played "tight." Some, like Del Zotto, have actually regressed, afraid to make a mistake. I would rather see someone like Lindy Ruff brought in - someone who's firm and tough but isn't constantly in the spotlight like Torts is (invariably for the wrong reasons). He had a proven track record in Buffalo and got a lot out his teams - with a much smaller payroll.

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05-26-2013, 07:39 PM
  #660
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
There will be no offensive coach being brought in. It will be a futile gesture with Torts. The guy would just endlessly butt heads with the clown.

Better off cutting ties with Torts. They will just be spinning their wheels otherwise.
if he hasn't brought in a PP coach by now he probably won't do it

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05-26-2013, 08:06 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Katie Strang wrote a good piece about the Rangers. this is the part about Torts


I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded.

another part discusses the PP



Been advocating this for a while, it's time for an assistant coach to handle the offense and the PP.
It seems like most people who make money reporting and watching the game (analysts) agree that the system does not fit the team. Only a few here that insist that our players suck and that is the reason we lose games and not because we allow the other teams points to run free and dont have a coach that is a catalyst for offensive flow.

Kershaw, on the other side of the coin, how do you know those players wouldnt be even better in an puck possession system? You don't.

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05-26-2013, 08:20 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by 3rd Guy High View Post
It seems like most people who make money reporting and watching the game (analysts) agree that the system does not fit the team. Only a few here that insist that our players suck and that is the reason we lose games and not because we allow the other teams points to run free and dont have a coach that is a catalyst for offensive flow.

Kershaw, on the other side of the coin, how do you know those players wouldnt be even better in an puck possession system? You don't.
Based on past pedigree of course. Brassard and Nash weren't strong puck possession players in a Hitchcock system, a system that epitomizes possession the puck. Callahan was a good puck possession player under Torts in 10-11, but has declined since. Richards wasn't a puck possession player in Dallas, but rode quick strike offense with elite finishers on his wing. Torts actually did a good job with puck possession relative to talent level on this roster. They were 6th in Fenclose, which is directed shots on net minus blocked shots. Obviously with the blocked shots, their ratings are much worse with a very average Corsi rating. The Rangers don't have a true #1C or #1D to control play on the ice, which is why they'll most likely struggled to adapt puck possession hockey.

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05-26-2013, 08:35 PM
  #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Katie Strang wrote a good piece about the Rangers. this is the part about Torts


I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded.

another part discusses the PP



Been advocating this for a while, it's time for an assistant coach to handle the offense and the PP.
I hope it happens. And, if another assistant is brought in, it better not be another Sullivan clone. The biggest problem behind the bench is that Sullivan and Torts are on the exact same wavelength all of the time. You need a third set of eyes on the bench that actually brings in a fresh perspective, not another mindless yes man like Sullivan.

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05-26-2013, 08:47 PM
  #664
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John Giannone: Coach/system. Know this, NYR fans, Torts WILL be coach in October. And system DOES work. Bruins just played it. Much better than NYR did.

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05-26-2013, 08:49 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
John Giannone: Coach/system. Know this, NYR fans, Torts WILL be coach in October. And system DOES work. Bruins just played it. Much better than NYR did.


Sigh.

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05-26-2013, 08:56 PM
  #666
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
John Giannone: Coach/system. Know this, NYR fans, Torts WILL be coach in October. And system DOES work. Bruins just played it. Much better than NYR did.
Which is hyperbole. Bruins, although having a similar system philosophy to Torts system; the bruins still run a different one.

Different defensive scheme. Breakouts/transitions are MUCH better with the bruins(even though they aren't quick strike offense). They utilize the middle or gaps on the breakouts much more effectively.

They also have a much different offensive cycling scheme. The Bruins don't cycle all that much behind the net. They try to steer the puck along the half boards towards the points. The point men, for the bruins, do most of the cycling.

Not to mention, the bruins have a lot of size on their wings which better suits them for a more physical game.

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05-26-2013, 08:58 PM
  #667
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Johnny Gianonne takes pucks to the face, and laughs about it. Him and Torts are obviously kindred spirits.

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05-26-2013, 09:08 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
John Giannone: Coach/system. Know this, NYR fans, Torts WILL be coach in October. And system DOES work. Bruins just played it. Much better than NYR did.
Hysterical. While similar, the Bruins system is different than the Rangers. Giannone is making an asinine generalization. Totally different defensive/offensive scheme and breakout play.

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05-26-2013, 09:17 PM
  #669
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That is laughable.

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05-26-2013, 09:17 PM
  #670
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Based on past pedigree of course. Brassard and Nash weren't strong puck possession players in a Hitchcock system, a system that epitomizes possession the puck. Callahan was a good puck possession player under Torts in 10-11, but has declined since. Richards wasn't a puck possession player in Dallas, but rode quick strike offense with elite finishers on his wing. Torts actually did a good job with puck possession relative to talent level on this roster. They were 6th in Fenclose, which is directed shots on net minus blocked shots. Obviously with the blocked shots, their ratings are much worse with a very average Corsi rating. The Rangers don't have a true #1C or #1D to control play on the ice, which is why they'll most likely struggled to adapt puck possession hockey.
Brassard played what exactly? A season and a half under Hitchcock when he was just breaking into the league and suffered two season ending shoulder surgeries? Players grow. Brassard is a type of player that thrives on holding onto the puck and making plays. If you can't see that you're blind. I don't give two ***** what Corsi/Fenwick says. Youre all taking a "puck possession" system and thinking it means Corsi/Fenwick. Aren't those based on shots for/against? If anything, our shots for will go down under a system like that. Columbus sucked all those years. Of course those two players are going to have horrible puck possession stats. Corsi and Fenwick can be useful when in context. You're not taking the situation into context. Nash, although skeptical if it would be an easy transition for him, would love a puck possession system. He would spend less time hunting down the puck forechecking, relying on the other team to make a mistake and more time catching clean passes and/or having the puck on his stick. Wouldn't you want that?

Callahan is one of the few that would absolutely suck in a puck possession system. There you go, I said it, but one person does not define a team, captain or not. He doesn't have the poise or smarts to slow up and wait for a better play. He always wants to go 110% balls to the wall for better or worse. Which is not by any means a bad quality, but it does have it's downsides. Stop stat watching.

Richards, I agree, but why does that even matter? He will be gone.

You've got it all wrong. One person does not make a puck possession team. It's a coaches mentality. Just like one person did not make up the shot blocking strategy last year. It was a team effort. Otherwise you could say "oh well they still have an elite blocking forward in Callahan and an elite blocking defenseman in Girardi so why wasn't it as good this year?"

Detroit STILL plays puck possession. No coincidence they're in the playoffs AND going far again. Do they have a true #1 D? Not with Lidstrom gone, unless you really think Kronwall is such a dynamite offensive wizard. As a matter of fact, every team left in the playoffs plays some type of puck possession system. If you don't think the Bruins play one (although its a very grinding one) why don't you go watch them embarrass us by breaking out using their D and the middle ice very easily while we try to jam the puck up the boards instead of moving it back to the D.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Boyle View Post


Sigh.
He really thinks the Bruins played the same system?

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05-26-2013, 11:10 PM
  #672
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Originally Posted by 3rd Guy High View Post
Brassard played what exactly? A season and a half under Hitchcock when he was just breaking into the league and suffered two season ending shoulder surgeries? Players grow. Brassard is a type of player that thrives on holding onto the puck and making plays. If you can't see that you're blind. I don't give two ***** what Corsi/Fenwick says. Youre all taking a "puck possession" system and thinking it means Corsi/Fenwick. Aren't those based on shots for/against? If anything, our shots for will go down under a system like that. Columbus sucked all those years. Of course those two players are going to have horrible puck possession stats. Corsi and Fenwick can be useful when in context. You're not taking the situation into context. Nash, although skeptical if it would be an easy transition for him, would love a puck possession system. He would spend less time hunting down the puck forechecking, relying on the other team to make a mistake and more time catching clean passes and/or having the puck on his stick. Wouldn't you want that?

Callahan is one of the few that would absolutely suck in a puck possession system. There you go, I said it, but one person does not define a team, captain or not. He doesn't have the poise or smarts to slow up and wait for a better play. He always wants to go 110% balls to the wall for better or worse. Which is not by any means a bad quality, but it does have it's downsides. Stop stat watching.

Richards, I agree, but why does that even matter? He will be gone.

You've got it all wrong. One person does not make a puck possession team. It's a coaches mentality. Just like one person did not make up the shot blocking strategy last year. It was a team effort. Otherwise you could say "oh well they still have an elite blocking forward in Callahan and an elite blocking defenseman in Girardi so why wasn't it as good this year?"

Detroit STILL plays puck possession. No coincidence they're in the playoffs AND going far again. Do they have a true #1 D? Not with Lidstrom gone, unless you really think Kronwall is such a dynamite offensive wizard. As a matter of fact, every team left in the playoffs plays some type of puck possession system. If you don't think the Bruins play one (although its a very grinding one) why don't you go watch them embarrass us by breaking out using their D and the middle ice very easily while we try to jam the puck up the boards instead of moving it back to the D.




He really thinks the Bruins played the same system?
Love this post. Stat watching alone gets you nowhere. Nor does having his cake and trying to eat it too... It's the whole system of players and coaches. They need to all adapt to a different, more possessing style... like you said the rest of the playoff teams can keep the puck for a loooong time. And the Wings' Kronwall isn't some wizard. So yeah, agree with you. So long as we just jam and board the puck into the realms of dump and chase, we will have problems if that's our 1st strategy

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05-26-2013, 11:32 PM
  #673
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I actually believe he will adjust the system he has done it before... When he first got here we heard the term "Safe is Death" to describe the system he would employ. He employed it when he took over and the team was awful at it so he adjusted the system to fit the personell. It worked and i believe he'll adjust again.

The only reason I believe he didnt adjust it this season is because frankly when would he have done it? They barley had any legit practice time and certainly no real training camp to even consider such a change.

I believe he will change... if he doesnt, he will be gone.

I dont Love him as a coach.. but i do believe he's earned to atleast be given another season.

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05-27-2013, 02:11 AM
  #674
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Dear John Gianonne... The Rangers don't stand people up in the neutral zone and don't have an Offensive game on their blue line. So kindly shut the **** up.

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05-27-2013, 08:39 AM
  #675
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I actually believe he will adjust the system he has done it before... When he first got here we heard the term "Safe is Death" to describe the system he would employ. He employed it when he took over and the team was awful at it so he adjusted the system to fit the personell. It worked and i believe he'll adjust again.

The only reason I believe he didnt adjust it this season is because frankly when would he have done it? They barley had any legit practice time and certainly no real training camp to even consider such a change.

I believe he will change... if he doesnt, he will be gone.

I dont Love him as a coach.. but i do believe he's earned to atleast be given another season.
I'd rather not really on a stubborn MFer like Torts to adjust his system. I'd rather fire him.

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