Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
I think calling Ryan Smyth a "plugger" is a mild slap in the face to say the least.
Watch him play, He is a plugger with skill, but his game is corner work and fighting it out in front of the net. He is very talented but his game is a mucking grinding game. He is the Oils best player but he is not a offensive dynamo the way Hemsky is!
Watch him play, He is a plugger with skill, but his game is corner work and fighting it out in front of the net. He is very talented but his game is a mucking grinding game. He is the Oils best player but he is not a offensive dynamo the way Hemsky is!
At age 21 Ryan Smyth had a 39 goal season under his belt. Offensive dynamo Ales Hemsky had 12. I understand they are different players, but I think you are either overrating Hemsky a bit or you have a much better definition of the word "plugger" than I do.
Raycroft is getting underrated in this thread. He had an abolutely superb season, after putting up great numbers at every level. I know the B's have a shiny new prospect in their system, but let's see what he can actually do in the NHL for at least one full season before showing Raycroft the door.
And, I think it would take a lot more than Torres and Staios to get him. Torres had a wonderful season, but his likely future is still as a third line winger (with 2nd line upside). Staios is underrated, but he'll be 32 this summer and is probably best though of as a #4 dman.
A more reasonable deal for Raycroft and a pick would be Brewer and Torres.
At age 21 Ryan Smyth had a 39 goal season under his belt. Offensive dynamo Ales Hemsky had 12. I understand they are different players, but I think you are either overrating Hemsky a bit or you have a much better definition of the word "plugger" than I do.
I'm pretty sure he's not comparing effectiveness or even overall talent, but rather their respective games. Smyth is a very talented player, but his game is essentially a plugger's game. He just happens to be able to score a lot more than most pluggers, as he is more talented than most. In fact, this is exactly what makes him as valuable as he is.
Hemsky brings a very different skill set to the table, and I think that is more the poster's point, not the effectiveness of the individual players.
A more reasonable deal for Raycroft and a pick would be Brewer and Torres.
Are you serious? Raycroft has one good season in the NHL, and if Torres with all of his potential can top out as a 3rd line winger, I'm sure Raycroft can just as easily become an average starter in the NHL.
Are you serious? Raycroft has one good season in the NHL, and if Torres with all of his potential can top out as a 3rd line winger, I'm sure Raycroft can just as easily become an average starter in the NHL.
Two points:
1) Torres just had a very average year in the AHL, and in his "breakthrough year" had only 34 points in the NHL. In fact, if not for that hot streak early in the season, I suspect he would had less than 15 goals. So, I don't know where this "potential" you are talking about has manifested itself. I also did not say that Torres would definitely top out as a third line winger - I said that was a LIKELY outcome but that he has top six upside. I'm certainly not writing him off and I also think that, even if he was "just" a top notch third liner, he'd be the type of player every team in the NHL will want.
2) Raycroft's "one good season" was a year in which he dominated one of the strongest rookie's classes in recent memory. This, after putting up great numbers in the AHL. Raycroft's year, taking Boston to the playoffs, was a heck of a lot more impressive than Torres' 30+ point season.
The bottom line: I think Raycroft is going to be a very good to excellent goaltender in the league for years to come. I think Torres is gong to be a good to very good winger. An excellent netminder trumps a very good winger but a wide margin.
1) Torres just had a very average year in the AHL, and in his "breakthrough year" had only 34 points in the NHL. In fact, if not for that hot streak early in the season, I suspect he would had less than 15 goals. So, I don't know where this "potential" you are talking about has manifested itself. I also did not say that Torres would definitely top out as a third line winger - I said that was a LIKELY outcome but that he has top six upside. I'm certainly not writing him off and I also think that, even if he was "just" a top notch third liner, he'd be the type of player every team in the NHL will want.
2) Raycroft's "one good season" was a year in which he dominated one of the strongest rookie's classes in recent memory. This, after putting up great numbers in the AHL. Raycroft's year, taking Boston to the playoffs, was a heck of a lot more impressive than Torres' 30+ point season.
The bottom line: I think Raycroft is going to be a very good to excellent goaltender in the league for years to come. I think Torres is gong to be a good to very good winger. An excellent netminder trumps a very good winger but a wide margin.
I agree with Darth (shudder). I think I overrated the Oilers players just a bit. For all his flash and dash Ales Hemsky hasnt put up a lot of actual production. I think he will round out into a great player, but looking over the numbers I would want a little bit more than just Hemsky in that deal. My other deal for Torres and Staios is probably too much in Edmonton's favor too, but more because Staios is one of my favorite non-Bruins. I think Torres could easily score 30 goals on a line with Joe and I know he was a guy the Bruins wanted in his draft.
Now if the Oilers wanted to talk Brewer I would probably go straight up Brewer for Raycroft as Brewer fills a real need for us.
Dont get me wrong, I am not looking to just get rid of Raycroft, but Hannu will be the better NHL goalie and it wont take long for that to happen.
There are very few people I'd trade straight up for Raycroft. Brewer is one of them. Hemsky is too little because he hasn't proven he's a 1st liner, and is a decent 2nd liner, but has too much talent for a third line.
Eric Brewer
Chris Phillips
Willie Mitchell
Mark Bell
Erik Cole
Those are the only 4 guys I can think of that I'd give Raycroft straight up for. Cole being a guy, who beside Thornton, would do the dirty work, chip in offensively, and if you put Samsonov on that line, Thornton would be over 100 points for sure. Samsonov-Thornton-Cole is too good to pass up IMO. Bell is in the same boat as Cole, but I think Cole is better, and the Bell deal may have to include a pick from Chicago.
Brewer, Phillips, and Mitchell are all pretty comparable IMO. Phillips is the most offensive, but not as talented defensively as Brewer, and not as intense physically as Mitchell. Brewer is the best all around d-man, and he's a good leader, while Mitchell is easily the most physical and best defensively, without an offensive game.
Those are the only guys I'd be willing to give Raycroft straight up for.
To Edmonton: Andrew Raycroft, Milan Jurcina
To Boston: Eric Brewer, Jarrett Stoll
Wait a year or two so Toivonen is ready, and I'd do it in a heartbeat. Gives us a very good third liner, or a marginable 2nd liner and a #2 d-man. We give up a #! goalie and a good defensive prospect. I like it.
1) Torres just had a very average year in the AHL, and in his "breakthrough year" had only 34 points in the NHL. In fact, if not for that hot streak early in the season, I suspect he would had less than 15 goals. So, I don't know where this "potential" you are talking about has manifested itself. I also did not say that Torres would definitely top out as a third line winger - I said that was a LIKELY outcome but that he has top six upside. I'm certainly not writing him off and I also think that, even if he was "just" a top notch third liner, he'd be the type of player every team in the NHL will want.
2) Raycroft's "one good season" was a year in which he dominated one of the strongest rookie's classes in recent memory. This, after putting up great numbers in the AHL. Raycroft's year, taking Boston to the playoffs, was a heck of a lot more impressive than Torres' 30+ point season.
The bottom line: I think Raycroft is going to be a very good to excellent goaltender in the league for years to come. I think Torres is gong to be a good to very good winger. An excellent netminder trumps a very good winger but a wide margin.
Yes, but the fact still remains. One quality season is just that. One season. Maybe Raycroft does happen to have quite a bit more value than Torres. However, I don't see how Raycroft's trade value is anywhere close to Brewer's at the moment, and it's certainly not worth the both of them.
There are very few people I'd trade straight up for Raycroft. Brewer is one of them. Hemsky is too little because he hasn't proven he's a 1st liner, and is a decent 2nd liner, but has too much talent for a third line.
How often are goalies traded for 1st line forwards? If Hemsky was a proven 1st liner, Raycroft would not be enough to get him. Not too many elite goaltenders are traded at all, but the closest I can think of is Khabiboulin, and Phoenix had to add Stanislav Neckar to him to get Johnson, Mara, Zaynullin and a 2nd. Still a decent return and more of what should be expected from Edmonton. A comparable deal involving Edmonton would be Woywitka, Moreau, Paukovich, and a 3rd for Raycroft and Kutlak.
My example may be off, but I think it's a lot closer to what Raycroft is worth than Hemsky, and Torres IMO.
Yes, but the fact still remains. One quality season is just that. One season. Maybe Raycroft does happen to have quite a bit more value than Torres. However, I don't see how Raycroft's trade value is anywhere close to Brewer's at the moment, and it's certainly not worth the both of them.
Fair enough. I think you are probably right that I was overstating Raycroft's market value. Brewer is obviously a stud, with huge value himself. So, Raycroft for Brewer and Torres does seem unreasonable.
How often are goalies traded for 1st line forwards? If Hemsky was a proven 1st liner, Raycroft would not be enough to get him. Not too many elite goaltenders are traded at all, but the closest I can think of is Khabiboulin, and Phoenix had to add Stanislav Neckar to him to get Johnson, Mara, Zaynullin and a 2nd. Still a decent return and more of what should be expected from Edmonton. A comparable deal involving Edmonton would be Woywitka, Moreau, Paukovich, and a 3rd for Raycroft and Kutlak.
My example may be off, but I think it's a lot closer to what Raycroft is worth than Hemsky, and Torres IMO.
I think Raycroft is worth more than Hemsky and Torres. Hemsky is an unproven prospect, and Torres hasn't proven much beyond third line status. The value is close, but I wouldn't do it if I was boston.
The package you propose instead would not come close to getting it done.
I think Raycroft is worth more than Hemsky and Torres. Hemsky is an unproven prospect, and Torres hasn't proven much beyond third line status. The value is close, but I wouldn't do it if I was boston.
The package you propose instead would not come close to getting it done.
I agree. Moreau would be nice on our third line, but for a #1 goalie, it doesn't come close to his value. The closest trade value wise I can think of is Raycroft straight up for Brewer, but the Oilers don't want to be rid of him, so a trade here would be almost impossible.
I agree. Moreau would be nice on our third line, but for a #1 goalie, it doesn't come close to his value. The closest trade value wise I can think of is Raycroft straight up for Brewer, but the Oilers don't want to be rid of him, so a trade here would be almost impossible.
I would trade Brewer for Raycroft. I would not trade Hemsky and Torres.
I would trade Brewer for Raycroft. I would not trade Hemsky and Torres.
I understand where you are coming from, and think you have made a number of good points. But, that is the kind of return you'd have to sacrifice to get a ROY goalie.
