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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

which player(s) benefited the MOST from their linemates?

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05-23-2013, 10:15 AM
  #1
amnesiac
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which player(s) benefited the MOST from their linemates?

In the history of hockey, which player(s) benefited the MOST from their linemates in terms of point production/overall game? (Defensemen as well)

a given season or career

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05-23-2013, 10:27 AM
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pdd
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Ron Francis 1995-96 is one that springs to mind.

Brett Hull 89-90 through 91-92 and Cam Neely 91-92 through 95-96.

Kariya and Selanne scored at a much higher pace when both were in the lineup than when one was out (as is to be expected).

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05-23-2013, 10:28 AM
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Passchendaele
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Jari Kurri.

364 of his 601 goals were assisted by Gretzky. He doesn't score 60 even once without The Great One.

Might as well mention Rob Brown and his 115 points in 68 games.

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05-23-2013, 10:59 AM
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gudzilla
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John LeClair and Lindros is something that comes to my mind.

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05-23-2013, 11:00 AM
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Loto68
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Mikael Renberg.

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05-23-2013, 11:07 AM
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pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dej View Post
John LeClair and Lindros is something that comes to my mind.
Leclair was a legit star in his own right.

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05-23-2013, 11:11 AM
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gudzilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Leclair was a legit star in his own right.
look at his production pre-Lindros. It's night and day.

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05-23-2013, 11:25 AM
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MadArcand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ron Francis 1995-96 is one that springs to mind.
Same season, same team, same line, and far more benefiting off his linemates: Petr Nedved.

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05-23-2013, 11:47 AM
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pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dej View Post
look at his production pre-Lindros. It's night and day.
Yep, moving from the a depth scorer playing a defensive role to being the first line winger and primary shooter with the league's best offensive center will do that. Adam Graves was a similar player and had a similar career path, although he was not as successful individually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Demers, Montreal Canadiens Head Coach, June 1993
"John LeClair is going to be a star in this league. I told him a few months ago he's going to be a very wealthy man."

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05-23-2013, 12:01 PM
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gudzilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yep, moving from the a depth scorer playing a defensive role to being the first line winger and primary shooter with the league's best offensive center will do that. Adam Graves was a similar player and had a similar career path, although he was not as successful individually.
how big was the drop-off when Lindros started to be injured and didnt play to his potential?

i learn new stuff here every day and i try to chip in when i can and dont mind being corrected, if it was that big of a move for him, i understand, i always thought he was one of those guys who greatly benefitted playing with a superstar to raech his potential. do yout hink he would have scored 90+p with another center?

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05-23-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Same season, same team, same line, and far more benefiting off his linemates: Petr Nedved.
Nedved didn't play the first PP unit though; that was Lemieux/Francis/Jagr.

Nedved scored 36 goals and 76 points at ES (second on the team in both behind Jagr's 41 and 95), compared to Francis' 14 and 63. Same line.

Francis was the better player, but people forget that Nedved was pretty damn good. People often forget that a big reason that Vancouver made the finals in 1994 was the Nedved offersheet from the Blues, and the compensation and following trade. For those who aren't familiar, on March 5th, 1994, Nedved (property of Vancouver) signed with the Blues.

The following ensued:

Craig Janney was awarded to the Canucks as compensation. He refused to play for Vancouver (perhaps his wife requested to remain in St. Louis? ), and the Blues wanted him back, so a deal was struck for Jeff Brown, Bret Hedican, and Nathan LaFayette. All three were key players during their Finals run; Brown was the team's best defenseman and Hedican was top-four. Neither Nedved nor Janney would have had anything close to that impact.

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05-23-2013, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dej View Post
how big was the drop-off when Lindros started to be injured and didnt play to his potential?
In the three seasons (96-97, 97-98, and 99-00) where Leclair was healthy and playing for the Flyers, and Lindros played under 65 games, Leclair's totals are as such:

246GP, 141-120-261; average 82GP, 47-40-87

In 96-97, Lindros only played 52GP, and Leclair went 50-47-97.

Quote:
i learn new stuff here every day and i try to chip in when i can and dont mind being corrected, if it was that big of a move for him, i understand, i always thought he was one of those guys who greatly benefitted playing with a superstar to raech his potential. do yout hink he would have scored 90+p with another center?
Lindros was very good offensively, and also missed a lot of time. In Leclair's best season, Lindros put up 79 points. Swap out Lindros for Doug Weight. Weight put up 82 that season. He was also more of a playmaker type, and one of the best in the league at it. Weight was not even close to tops in points even just among playmaking centers.

If Lindros only put up 90% of the offense he did, but played all season every season, I think Leclair has a couple hundred point seasons and is in the HHOF by now.

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05-23-2013, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
In the three seasons (96-97, 97-98, and 99-00) where Leclair was healthy and playing for the Flyers, and Lindros played under 65 games, Leclair's totals are as such:

246GP, 141-120-261; average 82GP, 47-40-87

In 96-97, Lindros only played 52GP, and Leclair went 50-47-97.



Lindros was very good offensively, and also missed a lot of time. In Leclair's best season, Lindros put up 79 points. Swap out Lindros for Doug Weight. Weight put up 82 that season. He was also more of a playmaker type, and one of the best in the league at it. Weight was not even close to tops in points even just among playmaking centers.

If Lindros only put up 90% of the offense he did, but played all season every season, I think Leclair has a couple hundred point seasons and is in the HHOF by now.
yeah, thanks for clearing it up

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05-23-2013, 12:59 PM
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amnesiac
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Glenn Anderson, did he play with Mess?

Defencemen.... Glen Wesley?

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05-23-2013, 01:47 PM
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Rob Brown must be mentioned per custom. As is Peter Forsberg...EDIT: Oh wait, this is a BAD list to be thrown into. Forget Forsberg then he's always the best just like Fedorov.

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05-23-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Rob Brown must be mentioned per custom. As is Peter Forsberg...EDIT: Oh wait, this is a BAD list to be thrown into. Forget Forsberg then he's always the best just like Fedorov.
Generally, elite centers wouldn't make this kind of list. That's part of the reason Francis didn't get much support for all-star center in 1995-96 despite finishing fourth in scoring with a Selke nomination; his offensive numbers were greatly helped by his linemates, as has been illustrated in the "Mario v. Jagr 96" thread.

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05-23-2013, 02:55 PM
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How about Bob Kudelski, when he moved to RW and played with Yashin?

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05-23-2013, 05:18 PM
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Nalens Oga
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Leeman can probably thank Damphousse for his 50 goal season. With Leclair, the guy was an elite goal scorer at his peak regardless of Lindros, he was a star not some 2nd liner who was a one-season wonder.

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05-23-2013, 05:23 PM
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Dallas Smith
Phil Esposito
Al Secord with Savard

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05-23-2013, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Phil Esposito
Yep, Bobby Orr's 64 points in 1968-69 were such a huge force in Esposito winning the Art Ross by 19 points.

I am still stunned. Five players have scored 150 points in NHL history, and based on current trends, that will be it. Of those five players? Two are considered to be almost consensus the #1 and #2 centers of all-time. The other three? Two of them get their accomplishments downgraded for playing with one of the best players ever, and the other one was underrated throughout his career, so why should anything change?

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05-23-2013, 06:01 PM
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Clark Gillies

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05-23-2013, 06:01 PM
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Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yep, Bobby Orr's 64 points in 1968-69 were such a huge force in Esposito winning the Art Ross by 19 points.

I am still stunned. Five players have scored 150 points in NHL history, and based on current trends, that will be it. Of those five players? Two are considered to be almost consensus the #1 and #2 centers of all-time. The other three? Two of them get their accomplishments downgraded for playing with one of the best players ever, and the other one was underrated throughout his career, so why should anything change?
Did I ever say Espo wasn't a great player? Of course he was. But was he 60 pts better than Bobby Hull, the other contender for best forward in the early 70's, in 1971. Of course not.

A no, he doesn't win the scoring title by 20 in 69 without people concentrating on Orr so much.

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05-23-2013, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yep, Bobby Orr's 64 points in 1968-69 were such a huge force in Esposito winning the Art Ross by 19 points.

I am still stunned. Five players have scored 150 points in NHL history, and based on current trends, that will be it. Of those five players? Two are considered to be almost consensus the #1 and #2 centers of all-time. The other three? Two of them get their accomplishments downgraded for playing with one of the best players ever, and the other one was underrated throughout his career, so why should anything change?
You and Phil are on the other side of the fence here from me with Phil Espositio.

there is a huge amount of evidecne and stats to back up the claim that Phil was made by Orr very much like kurri was made by Wayne.

Both Jari and Phil might have been fine to very good players on their own but their "greatness" is owed in large part to the 2 studs they played with.

Glenn Anderson, Charlie Simmer, Dave Andreychuck (with Gilmour), Fetisov (late in his career with Detroit) and Ray Bourque (with his last all star nod in Colorado) all come to mind.

Warren Young, Steve Shutt and Rene Robert from the 70's come to mind also.

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05-23-2013, 06:13 PM
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pdd
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Did I ever say Espo wasn't a great player? Of course he was. But was he 60 pts better than Bobby Hull, the other contender for best forward in the early 70's, in 1971. Of course not.

A no, he doesn't win the scoring title by 20 in 69 without people concentrating on Orr so much.
Do you realize that Orr only led defensemen in scoring at 8 points ahead of Chicago's Pat Stapleton? Orr only scored 64 points in 69 games.

Hull had a defenseman providing Orr-level offense that season. His nearest teammate (Stan Mikita) was only ten points behind him; it's a 36 point gap from Esposito to Hodge.

Esposito was extremely capable offensively in his own right. Your argument is effectively the "NBA" argument. Team success belongs to the best player; if you have success and are not the best player on the team, you didn't really have success.

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05-23-2013, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
You and Phil are on the other side of the fence here from me with Phil Espositio.

there is a huge amount of evidecne and stats to back up the claim that Phil was made by Orr very much like kurri was made by Wayne.
As of the summer of 1969, Esposito was an Art Ross trophy winner with a 126 point season (won by 19 points), while Orr was a sub-PPG 64-point defenseman.

Who made who if you look at it at that point? Esposito sure looks like the better player as of 68-69.

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