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Old
06-03-2013, 11:34 PM
  #126
troyerlaw
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I can count on one finger the number of truly crappy games i've seen 87 play. But it happened tonite.

Plus, the PIT goalies suck.

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06-03-2013, 11:53 PM
  #127
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He loafs around on defense half the time. It was especially obvious against Philly last year. For all the crap Ovechkin gets he's a winger who is supposed to be up high and he hustles back as hard as anyone if he's the one who turns the puck over.

Who cares about facts though when you can just be all like controller disconnected herpity derp.

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06-04-2013, 07:25 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by troyerlaw View Post
I can count on one finger the number of truly crappy games i've seen 87 play. But it happened tonite.

Plus, the PIT goalies suck.
You give him too much credit.

He, like every player, has truly crappy games. Games 1 and 2 were both very, very crappy, so your count is off by at least one for the week.

I'll never understand why some Caps fans feel the need to deify him. He's a great player, and arguably the best in the league, but he's far from perfect.

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06-04-2013, 08:47 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
He loafs around on defense half the time. It was especially obvious against Philly last year. For all the crap Ovechkin gets he's a winger who is supposed to be up high and he hustles back as hard as anyone if he's the one who turns the puck over.

Who cares about facts though when you can just be all like controller disconnected herpity derp.
Ok, you baited twice, I'll bite. No where ever have I said I'd prefer Crosby to Ovi, or have I said that Crosby is a better leader than Ovi. Ovi's play and leadership is unrelated to Crosby's, not connected to it other than comparisons made by other people, not by me. But feel free to put any words you want into my mouth to fit your own narrative that says Ovi is in fact a good leader... He's not. But that has nothing to do with Crosby, Crosby's history, or his current choke job after dominating for two previous rounds.

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06-04-2013, 09:28 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by kicksavedave View Post
Ok, you baited twice, I'll bite. No where ever have I said I'd prefer Crosby to Ovi, or have I said that Crosby is a better leader than Ovi. Ovi's play and leadership is unrelated to Crosby's, not connected to it other than comparisons made by other people, not by me. But feel free to put any words you want into my mouth to fit your own narrative that says Ovi is in fact a good leader... He's not. But that has nothing to do with Crosby, Crosby's history, or his current choke job after dominating for two previous rounds.
I'm curious as to what experience you have with Ovechkin's leadership that could lead you to forming an educated opinion on the matter.

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06-04-2013, 09:54 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I'm curious as to what experience you have with Ovechkin's leadership that could lead you to forming an educated opinion on the matter.
We've had this discussion already. Its the visible things he does, like pouting on the bench, loafing for long stretches when he doesn't like the coaching system, complaining about the refs after losing a series where he scores 3 points in 7 games, backchecking about 50% of the time to the point where when he does actually back check aggressively, the announcers and the HF boards point it out as some sort of evidence that he's really committed, when he should in fact play like that all the time. Showing up to camp visibly fat then producing one of the slowest starts of his career.

For the salary he's making, and wearing the C, none of those visible things should be accepted.

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06-04-2013, 09:58 AM
  #132
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Maybe leadership is overrated. I could see how leading is more difficult for a foreigner in a new country. Like Ovi on a team of mostly north american's playing a north american game, where English is his second (or maybe even 3rd) language.

The Nads playing with Sid grew up with him dominating. They never even heard of Ovi. So that respect level is probably different before they even drop a puck for the first game.

Perhaps bigger than one guy being a leader, is the support cast. Is it better to have one clear leader and 21 submissive brown noses, or 5 kind of good leaders and 17 support troops. We have 21 sitting looking at Ovi to do it all himself, like day one in kindergarten, all staring at the teacher.

Who knows, every team is different and I think the coach needs to provide the leadership as much as a single player.

Expectations rise to lead if you score goals but not everyone is a rah rah pom pom leader, yet it seems some expect that. Say something to the team Ovi. Fack Sheetsburg.

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06-04-2013, 10:29 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by kicksavedave View Post
We've had this discussion already. Its the visible things he does, like pouting on the bench, loafing for long stretches when he doesn't like the coaching system, complaining about the refs after losing a series where he scores 3 points in 7 games, backchecking about 50% of the time to the point where when he does actually back check aggressively, the announcers and the HF boards point it out as some sort of evidence that he's really committed, when he should in fact play like that all the time. Showing up to camp visibly fat then producing one of the slowest starts of his career.

For the salary he's making, and wearing the C, none of those visible things should be accepted.
So, in other words, speculation about whats visible on TV, which really provides no actual insight, whatsoever, into what kind of leader he is.

We'll just assume he sucks, I guess, despite any evidence to the contrary.

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06-04-2013, 11:10 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
So, in other words, speculation about whats visible on TV, which really provides no actual insight, whatsoever, into what kind of leader he is.

We'll just assume he sucks at leadership, I guess, because thats what all the visible evidence shows us.
Fixed that for you...

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06-04-2013, 11:13 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
So, in other words, speculation about whats visible on TV, which really provides no actual insight, whatsoever, into what kind of leader he is.

We'll just assume he sucks, I guess, despite any evidence to the contrary.
Lets play this game in reverse. Tell me one thing about Ovi that is an indication of his great leadership? Lets not confuse talent with leadership either, Semin was talented, no one ever confused Semin for a "leader".

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06-04-2013, 11:21 AM
  #136
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Maybe leadership is overrated...
Had to stop reading immediately. Leadership is underrated. Its everything, its critical. Leadership is what gets ordinary players to play above their heads, its what gets selfish players to buy into team concepts, its what gets individuals to put the team above their own goals. Leadership is what gets scared men to charge up a beach into machine gun fire, and other incredible acts of bravery throughout history.

While it can be said that not every great leader wins a championship, it can be said that championships are never won without great leadership. That Lidstrom didn't win every Cup, doesn't mean Detroit would have won their last Cup without his leadership. Or Chara, or Toews, etc etc going back through history.

Being a great leader does not automatically win championships, but championships are not won without it. And yes, leadership can and must come from the coach, but it also needs to exist on the ice, in the dressing room, when the coach isn't there.

Leadership is under rated, and its what's missing from the Caps organization for decades, and its why I went on the Scott Stevens rant last week. From Ted to George to the current Captain, there is a leadership void and the results speak for themselves.

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06-04-2013, 11:32 AM
  #137
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Last night's game was glorious!

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06-04-2013, 11:46 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by kicksavedave View Post
Had to stop reading immediately. Leadership is underrated. Its everything, its critical. Leadership is what gets ordinary players to play above their heads, its what gets selfish players to buy into team concepts, its what gets individuals to put the team above their own goals. Leadership is what gets scared men to charge up a beach into machine gun fire, and other incredible acts of bravery throughout history.

While it can be said that not every great leader wins a championship, it can be said that championships are never won without great leadership. That Lidstrom didn't win every Cup, doesn't mean Detroit would have won their last Cup without his leadership. Or Chara, or Toews, etc etc going back through history.

Being a great leader does not automatically win championships, but championships are not won without it. And yes, leadership can and must come from the coach, but it also needs to exist on the ice, in the dressing room, when the coach isn't there.

Leadership is under rated, and its what's missing from the Caps organization for decades, and its why I went on the Scott Stevens rant last week. From Ted to George to the current Captain, there is a leadership void and the results speak for themselves.
Only thing I will say in regards to this is, yes, leadership is underrated. That said leadership is also displayed differently with everyone. Some are more visually leading, some are meek, some lead by example, there are numerous ways someone can lead.

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06-04-2013, 11:52 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Kegger View Post
Only thing I will say in regards to this is, yes, leadership is underrated. That said leadership is also displayed differently with everyone. Some are more visually leading, some are meek, some lead by example, there are numerous ways someone can lead.
Agreed... but while that is true, what is also true is that leadership always exhibits certain qualities, and some things that we see from a distance are things that real leaders would not do. Pouting on the bench and giving half efforts are not signs of leadership.

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06-04-2013, 12:08 PM
  #140
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Agreed... but while that is true, what is also true is that leadership always exhibits certain qualities, and some things that we see from a distance are things that real leaders would not do. Pouting on the bench and giving half efforts are not signs of leadership.
Disappointment vs. Pouting. Speculation. Visually I agree, it does not scream "exuberant leader" to me either. However on the flipside, I thought he was one of the few who consistently carried this team on his back, for the playoff push. Something happened mid series, now whether it was injury, or emotions surrounding the officiating, or all of the above, or none of the above. Dunno. You and I, I'm sure would rather him bust through a wall at that point but.

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06-04-2013, 12:26 PM
  #141
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Disappointment vs. Pouting. Speculation. Visually I agree, it does not scream "exuberant leader" to me either. However on the flipside, I thought he was one of the few who consistently carried this team on his back, for the playoff push. Something happened mid series, now whether it was injury, or emotions surrounding the officiating, or all of the above, or none of the above. Dunno. You and I, I'm sure would rather him bust through a wall at that point but.
So then the question is, do we give him a free pass for his let downs, because he has carried the team on his back for stretches in the past?

IMO, when you are paid like a top 10 superstar and wear the C, you don't get a free pass for loafing in the playoffs or for extended stretches of the regular season. The demands and expectations are commensurate with the salary, the C, and the talent/potential that the player has. You are expected to give 100% effort 100% of the time. If you do that the results will come.

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06-04-2013, 12:33 PM
  #142
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So then the question is, do we give him a free pass for his let downs, because he has carried the team on his back for stretches in the past?

IMO, when you are paid like a top 10 superstar and wear the C, you don't get a free pass for loafing in the playoffs or for extended stretches of the regular season. The demands and expectations are commensurate with the salary, the C, and the talent/potential that the player has. You are expected to give 100% effort 100% of the time. If you do that the results will come.
I loved when Feds was on this team, because I thought Ovy learned from the veteran leader. I didnt see Feds screaming on the bench or busting through walls, but agree with you too...i didnt see him loafing either. He played defense for sakes, when the chips were down. If the team cannot change his make up, we need to surround him at least with guys who have been in the trenches. Guys he can learn from. Which is why i cringe at resigning Ribs. He most definitely gave us the depth on the 2nd line, but i have never seen so much whining in my life either.

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06-04-2013, 12:56 PM
  #143
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Hockey basics like offense and defense are not trumped by leadership. Sorry, it still comes down to goals. Goalie play is underrated & is far more important than a player showing leadership on any given day.

GM's do not focus solely on leadership in every player they draft and acquire, it seems secondary. They may add a leader at the trade deadline. How often does that work?

Its easy to look at any teams best player, or the guy that gives the hardest effort, or a vocal guy, and proclaim them the leader. Can it not be argued, that one may just have the most pure skill, one may simply work the hardest, and one may simply be a loudmouth? Or be the oldest, or the big brother type, simply a good fighter.

We seem quick to anoint the king on the ice but at the end of the day, he is just a dude that loves to play hockey.

First guy out the trench may be the bravest, or he may simply be the most angry. Can sheer anger lead to leadership? Dale seemed that type of leader.

If we beat the Rangers two seasons ago and went to the conf finals, who was our leader? Was it low TOI Ovi? Laich, or was it Holtby? We regressed this year, did we lose leaders.

The leadership was provided by Dale. And it was Bruce before that, now it is Oates. When the private refuses to leave the trench bench, the coach gets fired.

The coaches role in getting 100% effort (leader material) out of his players is underrated.

Perhaps leaders on the ice are simply future coaches, and current assistants.


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06-04-2013, 12:58 PM
  #144
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I'll never understand why some Caps fans feel the need to deify him. He's a great player, and arguably the best in the league, but he's far from perfect.
For the same reason so many Caps fans fawn over half the league while running down 90% of the Caps as barely NHL worthy, they don't actually watch much NHL hockey outside of when the Caps are playing.

Most guys look pretty darn good if you only watch highlights and snippets of their games. The good things you see them do you assume they do all the time and the mistakes you assume are anomalies.

Watch a guy's every game and you start taking the good things for granted and find yourself only focusing on the mistakes.

It is what it is but IMO it very much colors the opinions of the 'I pretty much only watch the Caps and maybe some of the playoffs' crowd around here.

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06-04-2013, 02:50 PM
  #145
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Hockey basics like offense and defense are not trumped by leadership. Sorry, it still comes down to goals. Goalie play is underrated & is far more important than a player showing leadership on any given day.

GM's do not focus solely on leadership in every player they draft and acquire, it seems secondary. They may add a leader at the trade deadline. How often does that work?

Its easy to look at any teams best player, or the guy that gives the hardest effort, or a vocal guy, and proclaim them the leader. Can it not be argued, that one may just have the most pure skill, one may simply work the hardest, and one may simply be a loudmouth? Or be the oldest, or the big brother type, simply a good fighter.

We seem quick to anoint the king on the ice but at the end of the day, he is just a dude that loves to play hockey.

First guy out the trench may be the bravest, or he may simply be the most angry. Can sheer anger lead to leadership? Dale seemed that type of leader.

If we beat the Rangers two seasons ago and went to the conf finals, who was our leader? Was it low TOI Ovi? Laich, or was it Holtby? We regressed this year, did we lose leaders.

The leadership was provided by Dale. And it was Bruce before that, now it is Oates. When the private refuses to leave the trench bench, the coach gets fired.

The coaches role in getting 100% effort (leader material) out of his players is underrated.

Perhaps leaders on the ice are simply future coaches, and current assistants.

Interesting take, but in some parts you almost seem to contradict yourself. First, GMs do look at leadership when drafting, but maybe its not the most critical aspect of a 17 year old's game in determining where they get drafted. But that's irrelevant when talking about which NHL pro the coach and GM are going to sew a big C onto their jersey. That person absolutely must be a leader, period, full stop. They can also be the most talented player on the roster, but do not need to be. They simply cannot put the C on a person who isn't a leader, either naturally or who is willing to learn and grow into one.

What happens when you put someone in a leadership role, who isn't qualified to be a leader, is dysfunction. The real leaders can feel slighted for being overlooked, the role players don't know who to follow. Division in the locker room is a recipe for failure.

The overall difference in talent level from the Avs/Panthers to the Kings/Bruins isn't that great that talent level alone accounts for their different results. Every team has some talent, enough talent to make the playoffs basically. What separates the real Cup contenders from the rest of the pretenders (like the Caps) is not just talent, its not just goaltending (See, Rangers), its not a "system". Its chemistry, desire, unity, teamwork, belief, confidence. And leadership matters big time to all those things. It fosters them, it demands them, it rejects anything that obstructs those things.

Watch the movie Miracle for a great lesson on leadership. Brooks first tears out any notion that they can win on talent alone, like they had been doing all their lives against lesser competition. Then he beats them down physically until they hate him, and bond with each other. Finally he injects an interloper who hasn't shared their common struggle. He tries to throw a newbie into their newly found tight knit family. The leaders on that team stand up to Brooks, and tell him "We're a family". That's when he knows his "team building" has worked. Those leaders, the team captains, won't let someone mess up their chemistry, won't let someone who hasn't earned the right to be there join their corps.

There are LOT of different ways to lead, the above is just one example. But right now no one is truly leading the Caps. Not Ted, surely not GMGM, not Oates, and not Ovi.

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06-04-2013, 02:53 PM
  #146
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Great article on how new leadership helped turn around the final four teams. Between Neely, Robitaille, Lemeiux and a non hockey guy named John McDonough, those guys have overseen major re-vitalization's of those franchises. Good read, even if it doesn't help our situation much.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs/2013...ood-management

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06-04-2013, 03:27 PM
  #147
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Kicksavedave, the leader you want only exist in ferry-tails. Is Ovechkin a perfect leader? Probably not. Do we have anybody better suited for this role? Definitely not.

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06-04-2013, 03:42 PM
  #148
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Kicksavedave, the leader you want only exist in ferry-tails. Is Ovechkin a perfect leader? Probably not. Do we have anybody better suited for this role? Definitely not.
Of course "we" do. Ovechkin shouldn't have been named captain, but he was, and now there's nothing anyone can realistically do about it.

I guess I have some hope that Holtby can partially fill the leadership void long-term. Backstrom's apparent lack of preparation or whatever in the playoffs has soured me somewhat on his potential. He needs to assert himself more, but Alzner is probably the proper captain of the team. He's actually responsible and team-focused, unlike the big-mouthed media ****** everyone thinks are good leaders.

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06-04-2013, 06:11 PM
  #149
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Lets play this game in reverse. Tell me one thing about Ovi that is an indication of his great leadership? Lets not confuse talent with leadership either, Semin was talented, no one ever confused Semin for a "leader".
All the players, to a man, say everything they can to support and elevate Ovie. I'd say that's a pretty good indication that he's respected as a leader.

Frankly, any speculation by outsiders as to his leadership abilities based on what is seen on TV is misguided.

None of us know how good of a leader he is, and none of us should assume one way or the other.

I just don't get why many are so quick to bash him.

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06-04-2013, 06:12 PM
  #150
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Of course "we" do. Ovechkin shouldn't have been named captain, but he was, and now there's nothing anyone can realistically do about it.

I guess I have some hope that Holtby can partially fill the leadership void long-term. Backstrom's apparent lack of preparation or whatever in the playoffs has soured me somewhat on his potential. He needs to assert himself more, but Alzner is probably the proper captain of the team. He's actually responsible and team-focused, unlike the big-mouthed media ****** everyone thinks are good leaders.
Why shouldn't Ovechkin have been named captain? Was there a better candidate on the team? Was he not the leader of the team after Clark was traded?

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