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06-01-2013, 08:53 AM
  #251
Jakey53
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Originally Posted by AP View Post
Except you failed to mention that Glendale is in no position to low-ball the NHL. As you were told before in the past, Glendale lost any leverage it once had and the NHL gained all of the leverage the moment the origional lease was tossed out of bankruptcy court. What does this mean? It means the NHL has full control over what it wants from Glendale and they will not budge on anything regardless of whatever else.

That's your opinion, sure is not mine. All deals, this one included, both parties have leverage when negotiating a deal, they just have to come to a common ground.

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06-01-2013, 09:58 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Jakey53 View Post
That's your opinion, sure is not mine. All deals, this one included, both parties have leverage when negotiating a deal, they just have to come to a common ground.
Glendale has almost zero leverage. When the other party is contractually free of any obligation to deal with you and can leave without losing any face, you have none. That's where the city finds itself, and also why it kicked off the RFP process so that it can't be pressured into an absurd AMF.

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06-01-2013, 10:04 AM
  #253
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I guess we will find out soon enough. If COG say no to this deal, maybe you are correct, but if they agree maybe you are wrong.
Wouldn't mean he's wrong, never discount elected officials' ability to make bone-headed decisions.

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Exactly. If we should be protective of anything, it's the shopping mall. The Coyotes clearly do not generate enough revenue to justify the AMF numbers being tossed around, that much is apparent.
Wow. Looking at these numbers make me wonder why the CoG has been fighting so hard to keep the team.

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06-01-2013, 10:12 AM
  #254
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Glendale has almost zero leverage. When the other party is contractually free of any obligation to deal with you and can leave without losing any face, you have none. That's where the city finds itself, and also why it kicked off the RFP process so that it can't be pressured into an absurd AMF.
Again, that is your opinion not mine.

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06-01-2013, 10:24 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by OEL View Post
Wow. Looking at these numbers make me wonder why the CoG has been fighting so hard to keep the team.
The new council hasn't done much of anything that would be classified as fighting to keep the team. Conjuring up a report that conveniently pegs the management cost at roughly the same spread in the Jamison deal? Now that's fighting. Some of those council members, with the right prodding by the league, were willing to die on a hill for the team. Those days are over. The Jamison deal would have bankrupted the city if you look at the budget they are now working with. I love the Coyotes and hockey here in the valley as much as anyone but damn. I'm not willing to lay off emergency services or close libraries and parks for a team.

No one should really be cheering on RSE. It's just Ice Edge with a new label. Enough debt to bury the team, even if they do turn it around. The equity swap is there so in five years time the team can be flipped to become GTA2, and both the NHL and Fortress will earn back their money. Really, break down the numbers. It's absolutely insulting what the league is trying to get you guys to root for. They'll gladly hand RSE $80 million in working capital so long as Glendale foots the Fortress loan bill of $120 million, all in the name of reaching that magical $170 million figure. Even at the cliff, they refuse to have a deal where they lose a single dollar. The NHL doesn't give a **** at this point. Local media should be roasting the league over this.

"You're right, the team isn't worth $170m. We'll take 45 down, if the city will cover the rest." If you aren't angered by this, you should be.

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Originally Posted by Jakey53 View Post
Again, that is your opinion not mine.
A free life lesson; not all opinions are created equally. It's not a stretch to say that there's been 100,000 posts on this issue over the years. There are seventy eight threads, each at least 1,000 long, in addition to many articles. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...65&postcount=2

Feel free to read.

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06-01-2013, 04:10 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
The new council hasn't done much of anything that would be classified as fighting to keep the team. Conjuring up a report that conveniently pegs the management cost at roughly the same spread in the Jamison deal? Now that's fighting. Some of those council members, with the right prodding by the league, were willing to die on a hill for the team. Those days are over. The Jamison deal would have bankrupted the city if you look at the budget they are now working with. I love the Coyotes and hockey here in the valley as much as anyone but damn. I'm not willing to lay off emergency services or close libraries and parks for a team.

No one should really be cheering on RSE. It's just Ice Edge with a new label. Enough debt to bury the team, even if they do turn it around. The equity swap is there so in five years time the team can be flipped to become GTA2, and both the NHL and Fortress will earn back their money. Really, break down the numbers. It's absolutely insulting what the league is trying to get you guys to root for. They'll gladly hand RSE $80 million in working capital so long as Glendale foots the Fortress loan bill of $120 million, all in the name of reaching that magical $170 million figure. Even at the cliff, they refuse to have a deal where they lose a single dollar. The NHL doesn't give a **** at this point. Local media should be roasting the league over this.

"You're right, the team isn't worth $170m. We'll take 45 down, if the city will cover the rest." If you aren't angered by this, you should be.



A free life lesson; not all opinions are created equally. It's not a stretch to say that there's been 100,000 posts on this issue over the years. There are seventy eight threads, each at least 1,000 long, in addition to many articles. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...65&postcount=2

Feel free to read.
You assume Westgate will still thrive without the Coyotes. It's certainly possible that it can but you should acknowledge there's also certainly the possibility that it can't.

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06-01-2013, 05:21 PM
  #257
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"@cmorganfoxaz: I think the league just wants a sign of progress, not a done deal. They want to know if this is moving forward."
Missed it yesterday but Craig stated the NHL wants something on paper next week to get a feel if its doable. Hopefully Glendale can obliged. Not hard to negotiate. But it is as we saw during the lockout.

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06-01-2013, 06:34 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
You assume Westgate will still thrive without the Coyotes. It's certainly possible that it can but you should acknowledge there's also certainly the possibility that it can't.
How? The numbers show that Westgate did fine without the Coyotes during the lockout. There's also the fact that the center is without the Coyotes for 320 days of the year or so. I have been a big supporter of the link between the two. Go to any well attended game and the restaurants have 2 hour waits, bars are flooded, everyone is making money and having fun. But banking on business that happens 11% of the year to keep in the black? That's folly. Tanger is doing well, and apparently had no reservations about building that location despite the Coyotes in flux. As owners candidly admit, the outlets provide a boost on those dog days where the team isn't playing.

If you want to be pedantic, it's certainly possible that Westgate fails without the team. It's just not likely. I would have agreed with you pre-Tanger and before those numbers were available.

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06-01-2013, 07:09 PM
  #259
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How? The numbers show that Westgate did fine without the Coyotes during the lockout. There's also the fact that the center is without the Coyotes for 320 days of the year or so. I have been a big supporter of the link between the two. Go to any well attended game and the restaurants have 2 hour waits, bars are flooded, everyone is making money and having fun. But banking on business that happens 11% of the year to keep in the black? That's folly. Tanger is doing well, and apparently had no reservations about building that location despite the Coyotes in flux. As owners candidly admit, the outlets provide a boost on those dog days where the team isn't playing.

If you want to be pedantic, it's certainly possible that Westgate fails without the team. It's just not likely. I would have agreed with you pre-Tanger and before those numbers were available.
Tanger is a shiny new toy, the jury is still very much out.

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06-01-2013, 09:30 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by XX View Post
How? The numbers show that Westgate did fine without the Coyotes during the lockout. There's also the fact that the center is without the Coyotes for 320 days of the year or so. I have been a big supporter of the link between the two. Go to any well attended game and the restaurants have 2 hour waits, bars are flooded, everyone is making money and having fun. But banking on business that happens 11% of the year to keep in the black? That's folly. Tanger is doing well, and apparently had no reservations about building that location despite the Coyotes in flux. As owners candidly admit, the outlets provide a boost on those dog days where the team isn't playing.

If you want to be pedantic, it's certainly possible that Westgate fails without the team. It's just not likely. I would have agreed with you pre-Tanger and before those numbers were available.

The bars and restaurants next to the arena would tell you otherwise.

BTW..... Tanger was never something that was to be part of Westgate. Ellman had much much larger plans for that section of real estate. Tanger happened out of necessity. But outlet malls have a history of starting out big, and then drop off to mediocrity over time.

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06-01-2013, 10:17 PM
  #261
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The bars and restaurants next to the arena would tell you otherwise.
Exactly. Try talking to one of the owners, not the low paid staff who don't care if hockey disappears because they like it when it's slower so they don't have to work hard. They do huge business on game nights. I go to Westgate a lot, during the season and off season as I live very close. The difference on game nights is astronomical. If you think losing all those dates will not impact and close some of those businesses, well, I couldn't disagree with that opinion more. Stable ownership not only helps the current businesses there, it also makes it a much more attractive location for new ventures, especially with arena management that is actually trying to drive up the number of other events on non-game nights.

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06-01-2013, 10:24 PM
  #262
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Try talking to one of the owners, not the low paid staff who don't care if hockey disappears because they like it when it's slower so they don't have to work hard.


These "low paid staff" make their money based on tips and not that AZ slave wage of $2.13 an hour. So in other words, they want as many customers to come in and serve for the money.

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06-02-2013, 02:12 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Sinurgy View Post
Tanger is a shiny new toy, the jury is still very much out.
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Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
The bars and restaurants next to the arena would tell you otherwise.

BTW..... Tanger was never something that was to be part of Westgate. Ellman had much much larger plans for that section of real estate. Tanger happened out of necessity. But outlet malls have a history of starting out big, and then drop off to mediocrity over time.
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Originally Posted by RemoAZ View Post
Exactly. Try talking to one of the owners, not the low paid staff who don't care if hockey disappears because they like it when it's slower so they don't have to work hard. They do huge business on game nights. I go to Westgate a lot, during the season and off season as I live very close. The difference on game nights is astronomical. If you think losing all those dates will not impact and close some of those businesses, well, I couldn't disagree with that opinion more. Stable ownership not only helps the current businesses there, it also makes it a much more attractive location for new ventures, especially with arena management that is actually trying to drive up the number of other events on non-game nights.
Why are you all completely ignoring the city revenue numbers posted earlier, and the 50% revenue increase during the lockout? I, too, was convinced the mall would fail without a hockey team. But after seeing those numbers, I just can't follow that logic anymore.

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06-02-2013, 06:42 AM
  #264
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I wouldn't try and over analyze this situation so much. We don't really know all the details or motivations by all the parties. What we do know is, for whatever reason, the NHL wants the team to stay, the COG wants the team to stay, Gosbee wants to buy the team is some fashion, and Westgate is better off with a team then without. Because of all those factors, I think the coyotes are staying for more then the next year, likely 5 years to see how it goes. Just my 30,000 foot view trying not to micro-manage the outcome...

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06-02-2013, 06:56 AM
  #265
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Why are you all completely ignoring the city revenue numbers posted earlier, and the 50% revenue increase during the lockout? I, too, was convinced the mall would fail without a hockey team. But after seeing those numbers, I just can't follow that logic anymore.
You really think Westgate will be just fine without the Coyotes?

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06-02-2013, 09:21 AM
  #266
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These "low paid staff" make their money based on tips and not that AZ slave wage of $2.13 an hour. So in other words, they want as many customers to come in and serve for the money.
Not true. Not all staff in restaurants work on tips. Most restaurants have GM'S, AGM, back end staff etc. You talk to the owners who foot the bill, not the employees.

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06-02-2013, 09:24 AM
  #267
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I wouldn't try and over analyze this situation so much. We don't really know all the details or motivations by all the parties. What we do know is, for whatever reason, the NHL wants the team to stay, the COG wants the team to stay, Gosbee wants to buy the team is some fashion, and Westgate is better off with a team then without. Because of all those factors, I think the coyotes are staying for more then the next year, likely 5 years to see how it goes. Just my 30,000 foot view trying not to micro-manage the outcome...
I'm with you. I believe they will be for the long haul. But that is my opinion, and just assuming like everyone else.

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06-02-2013, 09:27 AM
  #268
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How? The numbers show that Westgate did fine without the Coyotes during the lockout. There's also the fact that the center is without the Coyotes for 320 days of the year or so. I have been a big supporter of the link between the two. Go to any well attended game and the restaurants have 2 hour waits, bars are flooded, everyone is making money and having fun. But banking on business that happens 11% of the year to keep in the black? That's folly. Tanger is doing well, and apparently had no reservations about building that location despite the Coyotes in flux. As owners candidly admit, the outlets provide a boost on those dog days where the team isn't playing.

If you want to be pedantic, it's certainly possible that Westgate fails without the team. It's just not likely. I would have agreed with you pre-Tanger and before those numbers were available.
Where can I find these numbers?

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06-02-2013, 09:33 AM
  #269
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How? The numbers show that Westgate did fine without the Coyotes during the lockout. There's also the fact that the center is without the Coyotes for 320 days of the year or so. I have been a big supporter of the link between the two. Go to any well attended game and the restaurants have 2 hour waits, bars are flooded, everyone is making money and having fun. But banking on business that happens 11% of the year to keep in the black? That's folly. Tanger is doing well, and apparently had no reservations about building that location despite the Coyotes in flux. As owners candidly admit, the outlets provide a boost on those dog days where the team isn't playing.

If you want to be pedantic, it's certainly possible that Westgate fails without the team. It's just not likely. I would have agreed with you pre-Tanger and before those numbers were available.
Not exactly true. If you have a thriving business and loose 11% of your business you can still survive, but if you a just barely making a profit or breaking even and you loose this 11%, you will be closing your doors.

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06-02-2013, 09:40 AM
  #270
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You assume Westgate will still thrive without the Coyotes. It's certainly possible that it can but you should acknowledge there's also certainly the possibility that it can't.
Does anyone know how many restaurants have closed or changed names since this fiasco started? How many stores have renewed their lease? How many stores are on a month to month lease? If they renewed was it at a lower or higher per sq. ft.?

This info may show how the tenants are doing at Westgate.

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06-02-2013, 09:43 AM
  #271
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Why are you all completely ignoring the city revenue numbers posted earlier, and the 50% revenue increase during the lockout? I, too, was convinced the mall would fail without a hockey team. But after seeing those numbers, I just can't follow that logic anymore.
What would have been the increase with the team playing?

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06-02-2013, 10:57 AM
  #272
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I wouldn't try and over analyze this situation so much.
It's not so much "over analyze" as it is others using facts to back up what they are saying. Sadly what we have seen more of as of late since Jamison failed to close the deal are those who have become extremely positive to the point where truth and facts go right over their heads while taking a blind eye of some degree towards history in the process.

Being positive and having an opinion is one thing but having an opinion and being positive is a piss poor excuse to not learn and make inaccurate statemets in the process.

I don't want to see the team go but unless I see solid proof that the team will stay, all of the facts right now point to a relocation at this point in time.


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06-02-2013, 01:14 PM
  #273
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Why are you all completely ignoring the city revenue numbers posted earlier, and the 50% revenue increase during the lockout? I, too, was convinced the mall would fail without a hockey team. But after seeing those numbers, I just can't follow that logic anymore.
Sample size... small.

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06-02-2013, 01:30 PM
  #274
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Does anyone know how many restaurants have closed or changed names since this fiasco started? How many stores have renewed their lease? How many stores are on a month to month lease? If they renewed was it at a lower or higher per sq. ft.?

This info may show how the tenants are doing at Westgate.
And how many businesses won't even consider Westgate because of the unstable situation? I've talked personally to an owner and a general manager, one business still there and one that left. The unknown state of the team has been a negative impact for years even with the economy starting to improve but it will be much worse if it's gone.

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06-02-2013, 01:36 PM
  #275
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It's not so much "over analyze" as it is others using facts to back up what they are saying. Sadly what we have seen more of as of late since Jamison failed to close the deal are those who have become extremely positive to the point where truth and facts go right over their heads while taking a blind eye of some degree towards history in the process.

Being positive and having an opinion is one thing but having an opinion and being positive is a piss poor excuse to not learn and make inaccurate statemets in the process.

I don't want to see the team go but unless I see solid proof that the team will stay, all of the facts right now point to a relocation at this point in time.
Well, yes, it kind of is over analyzing. You guys have this new "Tanger" and are simply going all in with the information given. Rarely are things completely objective and in this situation pretty much nothing is the "whole picture". I don't know why anyone would take any information -- good or bad -- at face value.

I think people have a hard time accepting the fact that they do not know what is going on and choose to find something to grasp on. Right now some are grasping on the information that looks like the team may stay, and others are grasping on reasons why the team may leave or why the city of Glendale may be better off if they do. Yet neither side actually has enough information that would allow them to speak in absolutes as a few are doing right now (you are a part of this few).

This thread has pretty much turned into people using their limited knowledge of the situation to support their opinion as if it was a fact. It's hard to admit you don't know what is going on, but none of us do.

Perhaps we should have more debate, and less, "These are the facts and I'm right and you are wrong" going on. Because the "facts" as you guys have been pertaining to are rarely shown with true objectivity due to the inablity to really have a complete picture of the situation.

I just don't believe in speaking in absolutes when I'm entirely aware that I do not know everything about a situation -- and I don't believe in listening to people who speak in absolutes that don't have all the information as well. And no one on this board, including the BoH forum, knows the full situation.

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