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Oh, please spare us your poor persecuted Leaf fan nonsense.
Everytime ANY poster says something that doesn't totally jive with your warped Leaf-centric view of the universe you scream "anti-Leaf bias.'
The bottom line is that Kabrele's last NHL season was pretty blah, and any objective Leaf fan would probably acknowledge that he has some limitations right now. Bell, on the other hand, is the most highly sought after commodity in the league: A young, inexpensive stud who has shown he can play.
So, we all think Bell is worth more in terms of trade value. But, that can only represent Anti-Leaf bias, eh? Just like that other moronic thread, where you continued to maintain that anybody who didn't think Cola was one of the best prospects in hockey hates the Leafs.
If you can't post in a thread without this persecution complex, maybe you should just stay on the Leafs forum.
When it comes to people saying that Bell has more trade value than Kaberle then there are only two options in terms of a response, either that the person has an anti-Leaf bias or the person doesn't have a clue about hockey. Pick whichever one you want.
If you want to compare Bell to someone, compare him to Antropov.
When it comes to people saying that Bell has more trade value than Kaberle then there are only two options in terms of a response, either that the person has an anti-Leaf bias or the person doesn't have a clue about hockey. Pick whichever one you want.
If you want to compare Bell to someone, compare him to Antropov.
Riiiight. So anybody who doesn't agree with you either doesn't have a clue or is biased against the Leafs?
It is virtually pointless to try and interact with you. In your view, their are only three outcomes 1) Everybody agrees with you - no matter how biased or ridiculous you are being, 2) Everybody on the board is persecuting Leaf fans because of the international Anti-Leaf conspiracy, 3) Everybody else on the board is ignorant because they won't come around to your more informed perspective.
I wish I had one dollar for every thread I've seen you ruin over the last few weeks.....
Bell is a better asset than Kaberle? Please, you're killing me here. Despite your claims of neutrality bizarre statements like that tell a different story.
Kaberle has spent a lot of time matched up against the other teams' best forwards over the last few seasons so his defensive game is just fine considering that it was done on a top team in the league.
So why were all the Leafs fans calling him "Kaberlady" in the last playoff series vs the Flyers? He's a great offensive defenseman with a lot of skill handling the puck, but he's very soft.
Riiiight. So anybody who doesn't agree with you either doesn't have a clue or is biased against the Leafs?
It is virtually pointless to try and interact with you. In your view, their are only three outcomes 1) Everybody agrees with you - no matter how biased or ridiculous you are being, 2) Everybody on the board is persecuting Leaf fans because of the international Anti-Leaf conspiracy, 3) Everybody else on the board is ignorant because they won't come around to your more informed perspective.
I wish I had one dollar for every thread I've seen you ruin over the last few weeks.....
Boo hoo.
Funny all that coming from the person who is making a ridiculous claim and accusing me of not looking at the situation objectively.
When it comes to people saying that Bell has more trade value than Kaberle then there are only two options in terms of a response, either that the person has an anti-Leaf bias or the person doesn't have a clue about hockey. Pick whichever one you want.
If you want to compare Bell to someone, compare him to Antropov.
maybe in your world you're the know-it-all hockey god... but thanks for insulting me, and everyone else that doesnt' agree with you - yes... we all have no clue about hockey compared to the all-knowledgable hockey gods such as yourself
So why were all the Leafs fans calling him "Kaberlady" in the last playoff series vs the Flyers? He's a great offensive defenseman with a lot of skill handling the puck, but he's very soft.
I think I'm in the minority on this board - but I don't see Kaberle as being "soft." I think he is non-physical, but that is a slightly different issue. He does go to the high traffic areas when he needs too. I really see last year as blip in his career, and think he'll resume his course as a high level NHL defensemen. But, I could certainly be wrong...
I think I'm in the minority on this board - but I don't see Kaberle as being "soft." I think he is non-physical, but that is a slightly different issue. He does go to the high traffic areas when he needs too. I really see last year as blip in his career, and think he'll resume his course as a high level NHL defensemen. But, I could certainly be wrong...
I agree with you actually... defensemen Kaberle's age should never get written off... it's been proven time and again that dmen get better defensively as they mature and get more experience... I don't she why Kaberle would be any different here.
having said that, Bell IMO is still worth more. Take market factors and salary into it... if you have Bell, would you deal him for Kaberle and then go after a UFA replacement for Bell? or does it make more sense to keep Bell and go after a UFA dman to replace the need you'd have for Kaberle?
considering the CBA, salary (Kaberle at $2.9mill, Bell at $1.18mill) and UFA market (a lot deeper market for dmen, compared to forwards, especially when looking at salary and replacements to fit that structure), I have no doubt that Bell has a higher market value right now.
and if the Leafs think that Kaberle really is worth more, then why would they consider making this swap? why not just keep Kaberle and go after a UFA winger (or center, since Bell plays both) instead of Bell - since the Hawks could also do this to get a dman back - where $2.9mill should be able to attract some UFA dmen?
I like Tomas Kaberle, but he does not come close to returning a Mark Bell in a one-for-one trade scenario. Bell is either being severely underrated as a maturing powerforward, or Kaberle's performance in Europe is being given way too much credence.
No NHL GM would base a trade on how well a player played in Europe while on sabbatical.
Kaberle is a good player, but one who is coming off of a mediocre NHL season in 2003-04. I expect to see him a Maple Leaf in the Fall (or whenever). I certainly don't see Bell going anywhere.
I like Tomas Kaberle, but he does not come close to returning a Mark Bell in a one-for-one trade scenario. Bell is either being severely underrated as a maturing powerforward, or Kaberle's performance in Europe is being given way too much credence.
No NHL GM would base a trade on how well a player played in Europe while on sabbatical.
Kaberle is a good player, but one who is coming off of a mediocre NHL season in 2003-04. I expect to see him a Maple Leaf in the Fall (or whenever). I certainly don't see Bell going anywhere.
Darth: Yah, I considered, just wanted to make sure.
I'd have to say that Bell is worth more. He has higher upside, and is rarer find (power forward LW). I think a soft offensively gifted D-man is easier to find than a big LW who can score.
Kaberle is great at play making (needs to shoot more) and I think his non-physical defensive play is improving (as seen by his year in the Czech league), BUT he is very soft. He seems to get pwned along the boards in the playoffs.
Darth: Yah, I considered, just wanted to make sure.
I'd have to say that Bell is worth more. He has higher upside, and is rarer find (power forward LW). I think a soft offensively gifted D-man is easier to find than a big LW who can score.
Kaberle is great at play making (needs to shoot more) and I think his non-physical defensive play is improving (as seen by his year in the Czech league), BUT he is very soft. He seems to get pwned along the boards in the playoffs.
Yeah, Zamboner. You were doing what good posters do - giving information that somebody here didn't seem to have. I appreciate the efforts.
Kaberle for Bell would be the worst Leaf trade since getting Wendel Clark back. The Leafs would be geting a somewhat average forward while the Hawks would be clinching a number one defenceman.
Kaberle for Bell would be the worst Leaf trade since getting Wendel Clark back. The Leafs would be geting a somewhat average forward while the Hawks would be clinching a number one defenceman.
There must be something in the water up there.
If I'm the Hawks, there's no way I trade one of the best young power forwards in the league for an already-peaked, average d-man like Kaberle.
If I'm the Hawks, there's no way I trade one of the best young power forwards in the league for an already-peaked, average d-man like Kaberle.
don't worry.. I only drink bottled water in TO
I just don't get it... is it the rest of us that are so far off on the values here? Kaberle is a #1 dman, while Bell is an average forward? that statement just makes no sense to me.
I admit I've only watched these guys in about 20-30% of their games the past few years - Kaberle I've seen more than Bell tough, but I honestly don't think it's even that close in terms of value... I'd take Bell everyday of the week over Kaberle... although I don't think that Kaberle has peaked as a dman
Kaberle for Bell would be the worst Leaf trade since getting Wendel Clark back. The Leafs would be geting a somewhat average forward while the Hawks would be clinching a number one defenceman.
Just thought I would give the Stats for each:
Bell:
2000-01 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 13 0 1 1 4 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 80 12 16 28 124 5 0 0 0 8
2002-03 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 82 14 15 29 113 -- -- -- -- --
2003-04 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 82 21 24 45 106 -- -- -- -- --
NHL Totals 257 47 56 103 347 5 0 0 0 8
Kaberle:
1998-99 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 57 4 18 22 12 14 0 3 3 2
1999-00 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 82 7 33 40 24 12 1 4 5 0
2000-01 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 82 6 39 45 24 11 1 3 4 0
2001-02 Kladno Czech 9 1 7 8 4 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 69 10 29 39 2 20 2 8 10 16
2002-03 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 82 11 36 47 30 7 2 1 3 0
2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 71 3 28 31 18 13 0 3 3 6
2004-05 Kladno Czech 49 8 31 39 38
NHL Totals 443 41 183 224 110 77 6 22 28 24
I guess it could be argued that Bell has shown improvement on a poor team and is very durable, while Kaberle hasn't been showing the NHL numbers expected of a number 1 Dman, on a very good team. Then again, stats don't show everything right?
I just don't get it... is it the rest of us that are so far off on the values here? Kaberle is a #1 dman, while Bell is an average forward? that statement just makes no sense to me.
I admit I've only watched these guys in about 20-30% of their games the past few years - Kaberle I've seen more than Bell tough, but I honestly don't think it's even that close in terms of value... I'd take Bell everyday of the week over Kaberle... although I don't think that Kaberle has peaked as a dman
Kaberle was SO hyped for his first couple years in the league because of the fact that he was such a steal in the draft for the Leafs. A lot of Leaf fans had him pegged as a possible future Nik Lidstrom. He plateaued - maybe even regressed a little - and it's evident that he's not likely to ever be that superstar defenceman many had hoped. So now the hype has died down, but in a lot of fans minds that initial seed of 'he's got superstar potential' hasn't gone away.
Bell, on the other hand, was a highly touted, highly drafted junior who didn't burst out of the gate right away. For that reason, a lot of people pegged him as a bust or a disappointment, even though he was really just following the natural progression of development a young power forward typically goes through. Graduated juniors, spent a year in the minors, has gotten better each year as a pro. IMO, he's pretty much right on track. At 24 years old, I'd say he might be just about primed to break out the way Todd Bertuzzi did. Albeit, Bertuzzi didn't REALLY breakout until he was breakout 26.
Bell:
2000-01 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 13 0 1 1 4 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 80 12 16 28 124 5 0 0 0 8
2002-03 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 82 14 15 29 113 -- -- -- -- --
2003-04 Chicago Blackhawks NHL 82 21 24 45 106 -- -- -- -- --
NHL Totals 257 47 56 103 347 5 0 0 0 8
Kaberle:
1998-99 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 57 4 18 22 12 14 0 3 3 2
1999-00 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 82 7 33 40 24 12 1 4 5 0
2000-01 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 82 6 39 45 24 11 1 3 4 0
2001-02 Kladno Czech 9 1 7 8 4 -- -- -- -- --
2001-02 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 69 10 29 39 2 20 2 8 10 16
2002-03 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 82 11 36 47 30 7 2 1 3 0
2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 71 3 28 31 18 13 0 3 3 6
2004-05 Kladno Czech 49 8 31 39 38
NHL Totals 443 41 183 224 110 77 6 22 28 24
I guess it could be argued that Bell has shown improvement on a poor team and is very durable, while Kaberle hasn't been showing the NHL numbers expected of a number 1 Dman, on a very good team. Then again, stats don't show everything right?
Here is a more relevant stats comparison to Bell:
Nik Antropov:
1999-00 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 66 12 18 30 41
2000-01 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 52 6 11 17 30
2001-02 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 11 1 1 2 4
2002-03 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 72 16 29 45 124
2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 62 13 18 31 62
Kaberle was SO hyped for his first couple years in the league because of the fact that he was such a steal in the draft for the Leafs. A lot of Leaf fans had him pegged as a possible future Nik Lidstrom. He plateaued - maybe even regressed a little - and it's evident that he's not likely to ever be that superstar defenceman many had hoped. So now the hype has died down, but in a lot of fans minds that initial seed of 'he's got superstar potential' hasn't gone away.
Bell, on the other hand, was a highly touted, highly drafted junior who didn't burst out of the gate right away. For that reason, a lot of people pegged him as a bust or a disappointment, even though he was really just following the natural progression of development a young power forward typically goes through. Graduated juniors, spent a year in the minors, has gotten better each year as a pro. IMO, he's pretty much right on track. At 24 years old, I'd say he might be just about primed to break out the way Todd Bertuzzi did. Albeit, Bertuzzi didn't REALLY breakout until he was breakout 26.
I agree... good post... see how much easier it is being objective when you're not discussing your own team or players
1999-00 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 66 12 18 30 41
2000-01 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 52 6 11 17 30
2001-02 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 11 1 1 2 4
2002-03 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 72 16 29 45 124
2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 62 13 18 31 62
So... Antropov dropped from 45 points to 31, while Bell went from 29 to 45. Looks to me like one player's production increased by fully half over the year before, while the other player's production decreased by a third.
That's before discussing how much more physical a player Bell is when compared with Antropov, or the fact that while Antropov missed 30 games over the last two NHL seasons, Bell played in all 82 games each year.
Are you sure you want to stand by this comparison?
