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Leaf trades? What do you guys think?

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Old
05-19-2005, 02:32 PM
  #51
NFITO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
He would most certainly be a #1 defenceman for the Hawks.
really? I'd take Berard over him as the #1 dman. and Berard is not a UFA at this stage, so you can't really write him off. Neither dman though is a true #1.

But I know we're going to disagree here... why even think about dealing Kaberle then from a Leafs POV if you consider him a #1 type dman?

and even if you consider Kaberle #1 over Berard, why would he Hawks deal a player that they are very high on in Bell, for Kaberle, when they could offer that kind of salary to Aucoin, or Gonchar, or Ninimma, or well there a lot of dmen out there without contracts that have hit UFA age under the old CBA (which is likley going to reduce UFA age in the new CBA)... even if they have to add another $1mill to that offer to get one of those guys, in the end, they're still better off as they'd be able to keep Bell.

Chances of finding a Bell replacement at $1.2mill is going to be a lot harder than finding a Kaberle replacement for $2.9mill on the FA market.

seriously though - I honestly think you're just way off in terms of the value for Bell compared to Kaberle... and I have no doubt that you will disagree with that, and disagree with everyone else (and it seems to be pretty much everyone not a Leafs fan) who thinks that Bell is more valuable than Kaberle... so my experience with such debates tells me to move on and just agree to disagree.

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Old
05-19-2005, 02:36 PM
  #52
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Er, Nuckfan, remember - Janne N is not an UFA.

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Old
05-19-2005, 02:45 PM
  #53
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What?

Mark Bell is worth more than Tomas Kaberle? Excuse me?

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Old
05-19-2005, 02:47 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
IMO, he's pretty much right on track. At 24 years old, I'd say he might be just about primed to break out the way Todd Bertuzzi did. Albeit, Bertuzzi didn't REALLY breakout until he was breakout 26.
He could just as easily become another Gratton, or Kilger too.

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Old
05-19-2005, 02:48 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Er, Nuckfan, remember - Janne N is not an UFA.
damn I did it again

Hamrlik I mean

I have no idea why I keep doing that!

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Old
05-19-2005, 02:55 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Mark Bell is worth more than Tomas Kaberle? Excuse me?
I know all you in Leafs land (well except me who's also in Leafs land - although I don't think he's as bad as some say) think very highly of Kaberle (usually, when he's not being dumped on like he has in past seasons)... but it's time to face facts that his value is just not seen the same around the league - at least among fans. I have no idea what GMs around the league would think of him - no one here likely does.

Whether we're wrong, or Leaf fans are wrong, doesn't matter - because we won't agree on this.... but if you're going to put Kaberle in a trade proposal, he's not going to be given the value that Leaf fans expect he should get - right or wrong.

I think most non-Leafs fans would agree that Bell has more value than Kaberle. And really it's no surprise that Leaf fans disagree with this....

maybe it's time to just accept that, instead of going back and forth arguing about values that the other side just will not agree to.

I'm sure we all have players on the teams we follow most that we would over-value where other fans just can't understand why... Kaberle is one of those players... maybe he'll prove to the rest of us that he's really more valuable than any of us gave him credit for... but until he actually proves that on the ice, in the NHL, I doubt most people will change their opinions on what they feel Kaberle is worth.

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Old
05-19-2005, 02:57 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I'd take Berard over him as the #1 dman.
Oh, my.

Quote:
But I know we're going to disagree here... why even think about dealing Kaberle then from a Leafs POV if you consider him a #1 type dman?
I'm not thinking about it, he's the type of defenceman you hold onto unless someone can knock your socks off with an offer.

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Old
05-19-2005, 03:00 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
So... Antropov dropped from 45 points to 31, while Bell went from 29 to 45. Looks to me like one player's production increased by fully half over the year before, while the other player's production decreased by a third.

That's before discussing how much more physical a player Bell is when compared with Antropov, or the fact that while Antropov missed 30 games over the last two NHL seasons, Bell played in all 82 games each year.

Are you sure you want to stand by this comparison?
Sure, by virtue of playing on a team with little depth, Bell gets better quality icetime than Antropov can get with the Leafs.

Antropov has nothing to give on the physical side of things either.

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Old
05-19-2005, 03:07 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I would trade Mark Bell for a legit #1 dman as well... but this is Tomas Kaberle we're talking about.


I wanted to make that reply so badly, but I'm glad SOMEONE did

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Old
05-19-2005, 03:15 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I agree... good post... see how much easier it is being objective when you're not discussing your own team or players
I see what you're getting at - if I agree with you, I'm being objective.

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Old
05-19-2005, 03:18 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Here is a more relevant stats comparison to Bell:
Just a cursory glance shows me Antropov's stats have gone kinda oscillated, while he's averaged around 53 GP since his rookie debut. Bell, otoh, has shown steady improvement while playing in 80 games or more each year since making his first full season. Sorry, don't see the comparison.

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Old
05-19-2005, 03:19 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
He would most certainly be a #1 defenceman for the Hawks.
Then god have mercy on us all.

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Old
05-19-2005, 03:19 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Here is a more relevant stats comparison to Bell:

Nik Antropov:

1999-00 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 66 12 18 30 41
2000-01 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 52 6 11 17 30

2001-02 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 11 1 1 2 4
2002-03 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 72 16 29 45 124
2003-04 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 62 13 18 31 62
I don't think the two are comparable. You have one player that is talented, but injury prone, and another who is also talented, but very durable and who's stats are getting better each year.

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Old
05-19-2005, 03:21 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
So... Antropov dropped from 45 points to 31, while Bell went from 29 to 45. Looks to me like one player's production increased by fully half over the year before, while the other player's production decreased by a third.

That's before discussing how much more physical a player Bell is when compared with Antropov, or the fact that while Antropov missed 30 games over the last two NHL seasons, Bell played in all 82 games each year.

Are you sure you want to stand by this comparison?
Don't forget the 'stupid penalty' factor. Haven't seen enough of Bell to know if it's an issue for him, but without a doubt, it's been a problem for Antropov.

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Old
05-19-2005, 03:47 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Sure, by virtue of playing on a team with little depth, Bell gets better quality icetime than Antropov can get with the Leafs.
I don't believe Bell has had the good fortune of playing with a player of Nieuewendyk's calibre.

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Old
05-19-2005, 04:17 PM
  #66
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Bell is INSURMOUNTABLY better then Antropov. He's putting up the same numbers offensively, and would kick the living **** out of Antropov several times over in a fight. A team of five Mark Bell's against five Nikolai Antropov's would be laughable.

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Old
05-19-2005, 04:19 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan
Bell is INSURMOUNTABLY better then Antropov. He's putting up the same numbers offensively, and would kick the living **** out of Antropov several times over in a fight. A team of five Mark Bell's against five Nikolai Antropov's would be laughable.
Wow - sounds like you prefer Bell.

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Old
05-19-2005, 04:19 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loadie
I don't think the two are comparable. You have one player that is talented, but injury prone, and another who is also talented, but very durable and who's stats are getting better each year.

Instead of posting stats, maybe he should've posted their draft positions. Then I'll agree they're close.

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Old
05-19-2005, 04:22 PM
  #69
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Speaking of Bell - Alexander Graham Bell was pretty underrated. That's what happens when you come from the same town as Gretzky I guess.

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Old
05-19-2005, 04:25 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
I don't believe Bell has had the good fortune of playing with a player of Nieuewendyk's calibre.
I don't think that they had a chance to play more than 50 games together all season.

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Old
05-19-2005, 04:51 PM
  #71
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That's still 50 more than Bell got!

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Old
05-19-2005, 05:55 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan
Bell is INSURMOUNTABLY better then Antropov. He's putting up the same numbers offensively, and would kick the living **** out of Antropov several times over in a fight. A team of five Mark Bell's against five Nikolai Antropov's would be laughable.
Then what about Jordin Tootoo? He beat up Bell so would a team of 5 Tootoo's would be better than 5 Bells?

I like Bell more than Antropov but Antropov is still a pretty good player.

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Old
05-19-2005, 06:01 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vedder19
Hi, just wanted a lil' feedback from you guys...here goes


1)

To Chicago: T.Kaberle,M.Tellqvist
To Toronto: M.Bell, S.McCarthy, 2nd(or 3rd) round draft choice

2)

To Anahiem: A. Ponikarovsky, K.Pilar, 2nd (or3rd) round draft
To Toronto: P.Sykora

3)

To Nashville: A.Ponikarovsky, T.Kaberle
To Toronto: S. Upshall, D.Hamhuis, + draft picks?

Thanks
Cheers
that last trade is hugely in favour of the Leafs. I really don't see why Nashville would do that deal. I wouldn't even move Hamhuis for Kaberle let alone move picks and Upshall in that deal.

And to be honest what's with all the Kaberle trade ideas?? If I were Toronto and I want to move a d-man I'd much rather move McCabe. He makes more and makes a lot more mental errors than Kaberle. Leafs are better off KEEPING Kaberle. He's a pretty good 2 way d-man who's only 27.

And as for someone saying Antropov getting a lot of penalties, that's true and it wold be nice if he could limit that. However, it's good to see him bring a nasty edge to his game. Much better than if he were too passive, especially at his size (hello Viktor Kozlov).

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Old
05-19-2005, 06:12 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
A bit unfair, wouldn't you say? Stajan, Steen, Cola. The Leafs have plenty of very desirable young players and lots of teams would love to have a guy like Kaberle. I don't think Kaberle for Bell is at all fair, but that is a different issue.
I should have been more specific in saying that they dont have any available players in the organization worth trading for including Kaberle and Tellqvist. Yes, they do have a small handful of above average prospects, but most of those guys have already been proclaimed as the next coming of Christ and there is no way any of them get delt.

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Old
05-19-2005, 06:13 PM
  #75
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First of all, Bell is no where near Kaberle in terms of value. Defensemen of his calibre are highly sought after in the Nhl, ask any GM. Bell is an underachieving "socalled" power forward with a history of concussions. (if i remember correctly). His upside is the same in terms of potential as of Antropov's. (less injury prone tho) He (Bell) has yet to have a season that has been expected of him. He was drafted 7 years ago and just had his 1st decent season last year, and he only averaged a point every second game.

Just wanted to set things straight. Everybody always thinks us Leaf fans overrate our players, but everone else is just as bad if not worse. I mean c'mon, Bell for Kaberle, really it's no contest. Kaberle wins hands down.

Cheers

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