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Lindros vs. Forsberg HOF

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Old
05-24-2005, 04:15 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Yes.

Jim Carey was greater than Curtis Joseph.


You should be Don Cherry's new partner. Imagine the laughs!

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05-24-2005, 04:24 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Yes.

Jim Carey was greater than Curtis Joseph.
You`ve just lost all your credibility. One good season does not rank higher than several good seasons. Please don`t tell me that Carey was the best goalie that year, in another thread a few weeks ago we already determined that he didn`t deserve the Vezina, but won it because of heavy P.R.

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05-24-2005, 04:27 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
You`ve just lost all your credibility. One good season does not rank higher than several good seasons. Please don`t tell me that Carey was the best goalie that year, in another thread a few weeks ago we already determined that he didn`t deserve the Vezina, but won it because of heavy P.R.
Not to mention that the guy completely folded in the playoffs.

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05-24-2005, 04:49 PM
  #54
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Forsberg is a sure thing HOF'er.
Lindros will likely go in, too, even if he never plays another game.
The injuries have hurt his chances, but he is still only 32 and still a hell of a hockey player. As incredible as it sounds, he needs to get out of New York and onto a contender.
(hmmmm...Daniel Sedin, to Henrik Sedin, to Lindros...HE SCORES! And the Canucks win the Stanley Cup. Ahhh, the dreams, the dreams)

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05-24-2005, 04:50 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon
You really are a card. It isn't like he won that scoring title, 1st team all star, or Hart Trophy at the same time that LaFontaine didn't. You'll never concede that such a thing matters, which is why people think you're so ridiculous. I'm not even saying it is ridiculous to think St. Louis is better than LaFontaine, but the reasons you're giving to support that statement are.

Since you've seen both players play, why not stick to what you've seen and not what a bunch of people voted for versus what a bunch of (partially different) people didn't vote for 15 years earlier.

The fundamental flaw in your ****-eyed (can't believe that is blocked) system and entire way of comparing players through eras is that you hold who a player had to contend with against him when you shouldn't and don't when you should. LaFontaine winning a Hart in the 80's is automatically out the window since there was this guy named Wayne something or other. Then the guys who won in the early 90's... Messier, Hull, Super Mario. Sure, it would have been great for him if he rose above those names one of those years, but we're talking about absolute hockey legends here.

St. Louis had one very good season for the first time at age 29 and isn't the best forward on his team. I like the guy a lot and he has great heart, but one good season doesn't make him better than LaFontaine. I'd say LaFontaine's big season was better than St. Louis' anyhow, and every other season certainly goes in Patty's favor.
I am not too worried it some people think my ideas are ridiculous. I firmly believe my system accurately judges who the GREATEST players of all time are. I have never heard anything to change my thoughts on this. I think that most people know very little about the great players of history and have no understanding what constitutes greatness. Being a top 25 player for 15 years is NOT greatness. It is very goodness but, not greatness.


Isn't it possible that if you are buried behind five or six players (as you say, absolute legends) during your career, you just aren't good enough to be considered an all time great? Every era has absolute legends - being behind them your whole career means you are not as good as they are. Period.

I don't agree that my findings are flawed. I think that most people don't understand what greatness is or have never tried to objectively compare NHL players from the entire history of the league. I have a healthy understanding of league history and I have still never seen a system or heard an argument that makes me change my mind.

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05-24-2005, 04:52 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
You`ve just lost all your credibility. One good season does not rank higher than several good seasons. Please don`t tell me that Carey was the best goalie that year, in another thread a few weeks ago we already determined that he didn`t deserve the Vezina, but won it because of heavy P.R.
Being a top 10 goalie for 12 or 15 years is NOT greatness. Being the best goalie one time is greatness.

Joseph is not great, he is simply very good. Carey was great for one season. Facts are facts.

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05-24-2005, 04:57 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Being a top 10 goalie for 12 or 15 years is NOT greatness. Being the best goalie one time is greatness.

Joseph is not great, he is simply very good. Carey was great for one season. Facts are facts.
So Jose Theodore is better then every goalie but 5 in the history of the game since he's won a hart trophy?

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05-24-2005, 05:01 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
So Jose Theodore is better then every goalie but 5 in the history of the game since he's won a hart trophy?
I am still revising my goalie ratings but, Theodore should shake out around #30 goaltender of all time.

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05-24-2005, 09:36 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I think that most people don't understand what greatness is or have never tried to objectively compare NHL players from the entire history of the league.
This is your fundamental flaw. Greatness and objectively should not be in the same sentence.

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05-24-2005, 09:53 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
This is your fundamental flaw. Greatness and objectively should not be in the same sentence.
I appreciate your opinion but, as we have discussed many times, our thoughts differ on this issue.

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05-24-2005, 10:28 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Every era has absolute legends - being behind them your whole career means you are not as good as they are. Period.
so who is the wayne gretzky of today?

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05-24-2005, 11:01 PM
  #62
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Old
05-24-2005, 11:02 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
so who is the wayne gretzky of today?
Today, we don't have anybody that far above all the rest. But, today's legends are those who achieve the highest levels and greatest awards like Martin St. Louis, Jarome Iginla, Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Scott Stevens, Chris Chelios and Jaromir Jagr.

There is no Gretzky but these guys are like the Bossy, Stastny, Goulet, Yzerman, Messier, Kurri, Langway and Mark Howe of the era.

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05-24-2005, 11:45 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I am still revising my goalie ratings but, Theodore should shake out around #30 goaltender of all time.
I don't usually get involved in these arguements, but you are, of course, aware that Theodore has a career losing record right? (124 - 143 - 30) I'm curious how you justify a career losing record being about #30 goalie of all time

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05-25-2005, 12:03 AM
  #65
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Let me get this straight: Jim Carey has a Vezina Trophy because he played behind a great defensive team (Washington's defence was perennially the deepest in the league for years). Joseph set an NHL saves record in 1992, broke it in 1993, singlehandedly won his team playoff series in 1993, 1997, 1998, and keyed the Toronto turnaround in 1999. Yet Carey's the better goalie? Please, stop embarassing yourself. I can think of DOZENS of goalies that I have seen over the past 15 years better than Carey, most of whom which could have won the Vezina and posted nine shutouts playing behind that stiffling Washington team in 1996.

Tell you what: ask any GM around the league who they'd rather have: a guy who has one-and-a-half excellent seasons behind a stellar defence, or a workhorse goalie who has 10-15 seasons as one of the top five or 10 goalies in the league, and who carries you to a few series victories along the way. Should be an easy answer. Even Mike Milbury wouldn't hesitate on that answer.

And having watched Joseph's 1993 season (when he was robbed of a Vezina nomination) and Carey's 1996 Vezina season, I can tell you Joseph was a heck of a lot better.

And Jose Theodore as one of the 30 greatest goalies ever? The guy absolutely deserved the Hart Trophy as MVP in 2002, and was excellent last year, but he's not one of the top 30 goalies ever, at least not yet. IMO, you do need some longevity, at least five seasons at that elite level, to qualify for greatness. Theodore has two.

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05-25-2005, 12:13 AM
  #66
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Sittler had a 10 point game. Wayne or Mario never had a 10 point game.

Sittler is clearly the greater player.

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05-25-2005, 12:20 AM
  #67
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Just to clarify: does this mean that Kirk McLean, who had two Vezina nominations and was a second-team all-star in 1992 (and would have won the Conn Smythe in 1994 if the Canucks would have won Game 7) is better than CuJo, who has one Vezina nominations and was jobbed of a post-season all-star selection in 1999? I am a die-hard Canucks fan, and love Kirk, but to mention McLean as better than Joseph would be foolishness.

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05-25-2005, 01:18 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niftyone
I don't usually get involved in these arguements, but you are, of course, aware that Theodore has a career losing record right? (124 - 143 - 30) I'm curious how you justify a career losing record being about #30 goalie of all time
Goaltender wins and losses are one of the most misleading stats in hockey. A goalie does not win games a team does. A lot of excellent goalies have losing records because they played on a crappy team. A lot of bad goalies have winning records because they played on a good team. Goaltender wins are not very revealing about a goaltender's ability.


Does the ability of the goaltender really have a lot to do with the following numbers? There are dozens of examples like these.

Roberto Luongo 73-124-32 Career Record
Glenn Resch 49-113-20 in 4 years with New Jersey
Craig Billington 30-23-7 in 3 seasons with Colorado

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05-25-2005, 01:21 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Let me get this straight: Jim Carey has a Vezina Trophy because he played behind a great defensive team (Washington's defence was perennially the deepest in the league for years). Joseph set an NHL saves record in 1992, broke it in 1993, singlehandedly won his team playoff series in 1993, 1997, 1998, and keyed the Toronto turnaround in 1999. Yet Carey's the better goalie? Please, stop embarassing yourself. I can think of DOZENS of goalies that I have seen over the past 15 years better than Carey, most of whom which could have won the Vezina and posted nine shutouts playing behind that stiffling Washington team in 1996.

Tell you what: ask any GM around the league who they'd rather have: a guy who has one-and-a-half excellent seasons behind a stellar defence, or a workhorse goalie who has 10-15 seasons as one of the top five or 10 goalies in the league, and who carries you to a few series victories along the way. Should be an easy answer. Even Mike Milbury wouldn't hesitate on that answer.

And having watched Joseph's 1993 season (when he was robbed of a Vezina nomination) and Carey's 1996 Vezina season, I can tell you Joseph was a heck of a lot better.

And Jose Theodore as one of the 30 greatest goalies ever? The guy absolutely deserved the Hart Trophy as MVP in 2002, and was excellent last year, but he's not one of the top 30 goalies ever, at least not yet. IMO, you do need some longevity, at least five seasons at that elite level, to qualify for greatness. Theodore has two.
LOL. NHL GMs would disagree with me? They are the ones that voted Jim Carey as Vezina trophy winner. They have never awarded Joseph a Vezina.

Once again, I am not an NHL GM, I am not building a team for the long term. I am determining the greatest players of all time. Great accomplishments = great players. Jim Carey has more great accomplishments that Curtis Joseph. Who would you have picked at the conclusion of the 95-96 season?

The quality of defense in front of a goalie has almost NOTHING to do with the Vezina trophy. NHL GMs vote for the best goalie in the league. They can see who had defense protecting them and who was truly a great goalie. Why do you think Martin Brodeur won the Vezina last year? Duane Roloson had better stats. Why did Grant Fuhr win the Vezina in 1988? Because of the stellar Oilers defense?

It is unfortunate that you can't understand my ratings but, that is your loss.


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05-25-2005, 01:22 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Just to clarify: does this mean that Kirk McLean, who had two Vezina nominations and was a second-team all-star in 1992 (and would have won the Conn Smythe in 1994 if the Canucks would have won Game 7) is better than CuJo, who has one Vezina nominations and was jobbed of a post-season all-star selection in 1999? I am a die-hard Canucks fan, and love Kirk, but to mention McLean as better than Joseph would be foolishness.
If the accomplishments fit...

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05-25-2005, 01:48 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Sittler had a 10 point game. Wayne or Mario never had a 10 point game.

Sittler is clearly the greater player.
Must be true......and no defenceman comes close to Ian Turnbull!

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05-25-2005, 03:29 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Being a top 10 goalie for 12 or 15 years is NOT greatness. Being the best goalie one time is greatness.

Joseph is not great, he is simply very good. Carey was great for one season. Facts are facts.
you're defining your own terms now. who said it's not greatness? lots of good can eventually translate to great. if you ask random hockey fans who was greater, joseph or carey, you will get answers of 100% joseph. your list is more about who had the best single seasons, where luck and flukes can come into play.(carey)

Lafontaine was better than St. Louis. I agree that Forsberg was better than Pat, but no way is St. Louis better. Sure Lafontaine doesn't have that scoring title, but if Mario Lemieux didn't exist he sure as hell would have had at least one. I'd love to see St. louis win a scoring title up against Lemieux.

For a list of the best hockey players ever, your list wouldn't even come close to being accurate.

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05-25-2005, 03:49 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Goaltender wins and losses are one of the most misleading stats in hockey. A goalie does not win games a team does. A lot of excellent goalies have losing records because they played on a crappy team. A lot of bad goalies have winning records because they played on a good team. Goaltender wins are not very revealing about a goaltender's ability.


Does the ability of the goaltender really have a lot to do with the following numbers? There are dozens of examples like these.

Roberto Luongo 73-124-32 Career Record
Glenn Resch 49-113-20 in 4 years with New Jersey
Craig Billington 30-23-7 in 3 seasons with Colorado
Goaltending is an interesting position to consider when comparing goalies from different eras. While it's obvious to take into a consideration the different rules for Vezina at different times, the one thing which stands out when judging goalies is the games played (parring injuries).

As a general rule, a goalie who played more in his team was better than other goalies in his team. If you're using only stats and awards in your system, this stats can be used to settle some longevity issues (e.g. Joseph vs Carey). You could also incorporate GAA to differentiate goalies with approximately same amount of games played, that's what I did a few years back. (Note: my goal was only to make a somewhat workable all-time roster for a computer game for one year based on each player's best season).

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05-25-2005, 03:53 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I am not too worried it some people think my ideas are ridiculous. I firmly believe my system accurately judges who the GREATEST players of all time are. I have never heard anything to change my thoughts on this. I think that most people know very little about the great players of history and have no understanding what constitutes greatness. Being a top 25 player for 15 years is NOT greatness. It is very goodness but, not greatness.


Isn't it possible that if you are buried behind five or six players (as you say, absolute legends) during your career, you just aren't good enough to be considered an all time great? Every era has absolute legends - being behind them your whole career means you are not as good as they are. Period.

I don't agree that my findings are flawed. I think that most people don't understand what greatness is or have never tried to objectively compare NHL players from the entire history of the league. I have a healthy understanding of league history and I have still never seen a system or heard an argument that makes me change my mind.
I never said Lafontaine was an "all-time great". I said he was better than Martin St. Louis, which he is.

There is no rule that says every era must have a legend... every era has its greats, for sure. Not every era has The Great One, Super Mario, and Messier. For instance, this era doesn't. Not yet, anyway. That is in large part why St. Louis was able to win the scoring title. First, he is good, obviously. He plays for a great team with very good players (some better than him). And he doesn't have Mario or Wayne to surpass.

As for the rest of your horn-tooting post... That's fine and all, but if you honestly think you have some superior understanding of league history you are pompous as well as (in regards to your system) foolish. Funny that you should say you haven't seen another system that changed your mind about yours. That is probably because any system of statistical formulas, including yours, is only beneficial as an additional perspective. You say you objectively compare players but you don't anymore than someone who compares players based on what they've seen with their own eyes. You use statistics without considering the factors of those statistics. You are attempting to be scientific but neglect the whole notion of variables. Not very scientific. You focus on hardware and don't take any measures to weigh the award winners of one era with the winners of another. You may think that is objective because you are only looking at numbers, but that just isn't the case. You are subjective in your bias towards awards, scoring titles, other stats, and, more importantly, the outcome of your silly formula... no matter what these things would mean comparitively to anyone else.

I don't think anyone expects you to change your mind as you don't seem to be a reasonable person. However, the fact that just about everyone thinks you're wrong is, in my mind, not due to us being fools who can't recognize your scientific greatness and historical wizardry.

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05-25-2005, 03:57 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
If the accomplishments fit...
But they don't. If you consider nominations as accomplishments, then surely there are other accomplishments below that.

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