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Raise the Jolly Roger - The Pirates Win A Game in California!

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06-21-2013, 01:14 PM
  #826
Being Gene Malkovich
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ESPN has us at a 53.5% chance of making the playoffs (I'm guessing that doesn't include the wild-card playoff).

IF we cannot improve on the 7th worst runs per game average, it is more like 5.35%.

Hopefully we won't be drafting in the top 15 for a while, so that may hurt our chances of top end prospects in the future, but prospects are just that... prospects.

Unfourtunately, with the lack of a huge payroll, we can't afford to give up on said prospects.

If you're going to give up the top guys, then you get a top guy and pay him. If not, don't give up any of the big young guns and try and survive on 2-1 and 3-2 outings.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Ah the life of a Pirates fan...

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06-21-2013, 01:16 PM
  #827
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Your issue is you feel that the players that are talked about being included to get a guy like Stanton would cripple our farm system. I simply disagree with you. There is a plethora of talent throughout our system. I get the angles you are pitching. I really do.

Having a guy for 3 years is a bit more than a rental. And yes, the premier RH power bat in baseball would bring a nice return, even at the deadline.

And stop putting El Toro is the same sentence as Stanton. Pedro has a tough enough time getting to and remaining above .220 and hitting anything other than a straight fastball. His best OPS+ is 116. Sure he'll give you a week or two of really good hitting and then completely disappear for a month.

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06-21-2013, 01:33 PM
  #828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
Your issue is you feel that the players that are talked about being included to get a guy like Stanton would cripple our farm system. I simply disagree with you. There is a plethora of talent throughout our system. I get the angles you are pitching. I really do.

Having a guy for 3 years is a bit more than a rental. And yes, the premier RH power bat in baseball would bring a nice return, even at the deadline.

And stop putting El Toro is the same sentence as Stanton. Pedro has a tough enough time getting to and remaining above .220 and hitting anything other than a straight fastball. His best OPS+ is 116. Sure he'll give you a week or two of really good hitting and then completely disappear for a month.
My issue is that the Pirates have no business targeting a Rental when it flies completely in the face of their moves that have gotten them to the point where they are right now challenging for the lead in the division.

Also, you continue to do it. You continue to believe that the team would sell Stanton at the deadline prior to free agency. If what you contend is the team is in a win now mode (or the window is open) and they're buyers then why on earth would they then become sellers and trade off what will be their best player?!? It just wouldnt happen, unless the team was clearly not in the playoff hunt. If that were the case then it would've been completely pointless to acquire Stanton to begin with. So just stop using that as a crutch to help validate the worth of that trade because it wouldnt be the case. We'd end up with a comp pick out of the deal and that's all. I need to repeat myself because it's not getting through. A contending team is NOT going to be trading away their best player at the deadline, especially when there is supposedly a window they're in.

I bring up pedro because you seem to have a belief that players who are established only have their stats increase and never decrease. You also conveniently overlook that Stanton is on a down season and there's just as much to suggest that his production could decline or stagnate as it could return to previous form. Pedro is an example of a player who according to age should be getting better but statwise he has actually gotten worse. There are countless of other MLB players who put up big seasons never to see those numbers again.

Lets go off of current performance, 850ish OPS injury prone player likely to command a large salary and will be a rental for 2.5 seasons. Would I like that player for free? Absolutely! Would I like that player for a moderate package of prospects? Quite Possibly, depends on how replaceable those prospects are or whether or not those prospects were in the organizations long term plans. Would I like that player for the package being rumored which consists of the team's top two prospects? Absolutely not. Taillon and Polanco are expected to be on the team within the next two years and Sanchez will be on the club next season. Ace potential pitchers are worth their weight in gold and frankly it would be stupid to sell on Taillon now when his value is not nearly as high as it would be once his pitches his first few innings.

Look at what Seattle did with Pineda. He returned straight up Jesus Montero. If we're going to deal from a position of strength in that regard it's something I could consider but When you're throwing in both it's just overkill and yes it's a gutting. The prospects after Taillon and Polanco are good but certainly not on the same tier and with our future drafting positions it's going to be harder and harder to hit on that talent without the no brainers picking at #2.

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06-21-2013, 01:34 PM
  #829
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2 1/2 years isn't a rental.

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06-21-2013, 02:06 PM
  #830
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
2 1/2 years isn't a rental.
What is it then because it's certainly not a player in the long term plans. Lets just call things what they are instead of pretending about some fantasy where the Pirates are going to offer up the long term 25ish mil a year deal to retain Stanton.

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06-21-2013, 02:23 PM
  #831
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Tony Sanchez called up. Will be in Anaheim tonight.

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06-21-2013, 02:27 PM
  #832
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Tony Sanchez called up. Will be in Anaheim tonight.
Wow. I wonder why they're doing that? Could it be to show off his talents before the trade deadline?

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06-21-2013, 02:33 PM
  #833
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What is it then because it's certainly not a player in the long term plans. Lets just call things what they are instead of pretending about some fantasy where the Pirates are going to offer up the long term 25ish mil a year deal to retain Stanton.
What happens when Cole starts to dominate? 5 years from now are we going to pay him 20M per? Marte? I guess all of our potential stars are simply rentals by that logic.

At some point you evaluate the situation and realize you've stockpiled a lot of really good prospects and when the time is right you strike for a bat like Stanton, which in itself RARELY is available and then on top of it, control him for 3 years before having to make a decision.....

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06-21-2013, 02:40 PM
  #834
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It could be -- but more likely they might throw him in the mix as the DH, get him a cup of coffee etc. He's be hitting lefties like crazy.

With the Stanton stuff, I think I more or less agree with Gooch, and more importantly for me, I just don't see Stanton being traded, so it's not worth thinking about. I'm not opposed to trading prospects at certain times, but for me one of the keys to maintaining success is keeping the system very deep -- ie not unloading 3-4 very good pieces for one MLB piece.

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06-21-2013, 02:40 PM
  #835
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Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
Wow. I wonder why they're doing that? Could it be to show off his talents before the trade deadline?
Possible DH.

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06-21-2013, 02:42 PM
  #836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
What happens when Cole starts to dominate? 5 years from now are we going to pay him 20M per? Marte? I guess all of our potential stars are simply rentals by that logic.

At some point you evaluate the situation and realize you've stockpiled a lot of really good prospects and when the time is right you strike for a bat like Stanton, which in itself RARELY is available and then on top of it, control him for 3 years before having to make a decision.....
We'll do what the Rays do. Either lock up your young stars early before they get too good to buy out a year or two of their free agent years. Or you trade him away in a deal similar to the Shields/Myers deal this last off season and repeat the process. It's the only way a team like this with the payroll we're limited to can have a roster that is capable of doing any damage. We need to have players playing above the level of their current salary. When you're talking about Stanton that will not be the case as he'll already be in arbitration and will be compensated as a 5 WAR player. I mentioned before if we were two years earlier on him it would be a lot more viable because of that.

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06-21-2013, 02:45 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by td_ice View Post
Tony Sanchez called up. Will be in Anaheim tonight.
We'll see if he's used. I believe it was mentioned that he was brought to NY before when the Pirates were there to be on the taxi squad. He's been ripping it up in AAA so it'll be interesting to take a look at him now since the last time I saw him was in AA and he was mediocre.

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06-21-2013, 03:31 PM
  #838
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re: the yips- that zangrilli guy reported that sanchez has been having issues throwing the ball around the infield. hard to believe hed be anything beyond a dh if thats really the case. it's one thing to be bad at throwing out baserunners...

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06-21-2013, 03:32 PM
  #839
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
We'll see if he's used. I believe it was mentioned that he was brought to NY before when the Pirates were there to be on the taxi squad. He's been ripping it up in AAA so it'll be interesting to take a look at him now since the last time I saw him was in AA and he was mediocre.
It was mentioned that they might want to have him work with Jeff Bannister. As Sanchez currently has a case of the throwing yips. Not only is he having problems throwing to 2b, but he is having trouble just throwing the ball around the infield between batters.

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06-21-2013, 03:59 PM
  #840
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Sanchez...another brilliant Huntington pick.

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06-21-2013, 04:25 PM
  #841
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Sanchez...another brilliant Huntington pick.
What an interesting and relevant comment -- thank you for considering the draft strategy that year and how it played out!

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06-21-2013, 04:48 PM
  #842
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What an interesting and relevant comment -- thank you for considering the draft strategy that year and how it played out!
We judge football GM's on their draft picks years later....2009 top 5 selection that is just now getting a call up, has horrendus defensive skills as a C and is 25 years old. I'd say that unless he somehow hits lights out and can learn a new position quickly, he'll offer us next to nothing. DH doesn't really jive with the NL.

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06-21-2013, 04:59 PM
  #843
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Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
We judge football GM's on their draft picks years later....2009 top 5 selection that is just now getting a call up, has horrendus defensive skills as a C and is 25 years old. I'd say that unless he somehow hits lights out and can learn a new position quickly, he'll offer us next to nothing. DH doesn't really jive with the NL.
I think DJ was referring to the draft strategy that season in spreading the draft money out through various later rounds. Trying to nab some possible gems with higher bonus money in the late rounds.

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06-21-2013, 05:02 PM
  #844
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Sanchez also hasn't been the same since he broke his jaw.

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06-21-2013, 06:09 PM
  #845
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Sanchez is having a great year in aaa

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06-21-2013, 06:48 PM
  #846
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I think DJ was referring to the draft strategy that season in spreading the draft money out through various later rounds. Trying to nab some possible gems with higher bonus money in the late rounds.
I've always hated that approach. Granted, I know teams that don't have big money to burn can help themselves by going that route, but I've always liked the BPA strategy. The Steelers have long built themselves via the draft with that motto. Now, granted, comparing baseball drafts to football, is apples to oranges but it usually lends itself to better results regardless of sport.

I was very happy with the past 3 draft classes from Neal. I think he absolutely made the right call on Cole given the players available in 2011. Going after Appel was a bold move and he was easily the BPA at the time. Sucks it didn't work out, and had we been able to given him Cole/near that type money, he'd have signed. This year, based on the scouting reports and grades, I think we made 2 excellent picks at 9 and 14.

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06-21-2013, 08:01 PM
  #847
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I've always hated that approach. Granted, I know teams that don't have big money to burn can help themselves by going that route, but I've always liked the BPA strategy. The Steelers have long built themselves via the draft with that motto. Now, granted, comparing baseball drafts to football, is apples to oranges but it usually lends itself to better results regardless of sport.

I was very happy with the past 3 draft classes from Neal. I think he absolutely made the right call on Cole given the players available in 2011. Going after Appel was a bold move and he was easily the BPA at the time. Sucks it didn't work out, and had we been able to given him Cole/near that type money, he'd have signed. This year, based on the scouting reports and grades, I think we made 2 excellent picks at 9 and 14.
I believe at the time of that Sanchez pick there wasnt much on the board but a bunch of High School arms that none of them seemed to be head and shoulders above the rest so they went off the board with that Sanchez pick (which did make sense at the time) and then over slotted some higher risk highschool arms in the later rounds.

Sanchez prior to getting his face broken had the makings of a top defensive catching prospect with a suspect bat (similar to the guy we just drafted). I have soured on him since then but honestly, he's tearing it up in AAA and is really making a case for him to be brought back into the fold as one of the top prospects of the team. The issues about his throwing is not a permanent one but a temporary one. From people who have watched him he has performed quite well defensively and would be a significant step up in that department from McKenry. Pirates Prospects.com did a good write up to explain the whole Sanchez throwing issue, or non-issue.

Anyways the guy is hitting .950 OPS in AAA and is tearing apart lefties with a 1000+ OPS against them.

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06-21-2013, 08:16 PM
  #848
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There is no such thing as BPA in the baseball draft past the first 1 or 2 picks...and regardless Sanchez took two fastballs to the face within a month - no prospect comes back from that unscathed, especially not after losing a year of development.

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06-21-2013, 09:00 PM
  #849
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Brad Hawpe starting for the Angels...what in the serious ****?

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06-21-2013, 09:29 PM
  #850
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Pedro west coast bomb.

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