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Proposal: Chara for Luongo

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Old
05-22-2005, 04:33 PM
  #76
Wisent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuhr86
The sens don't need a star goalie like Luongo to get by. All they need is a goalie that can steal them a game here and there in the playoffs and not lose them any games. If I were sens Management I would not go after Luongo, I would try to pick up a Nabokov or Giguere which would come at a connsiderbly less price. Put one of those two goalies behind the amazing sens defense and you got yourself 1 step closer to the Stanly cup. Now if they could only score some goals in the playoffs.
Nabokov could go equally expensive. Sharks just traded Kirpusoff and that would leave them with Toskala and no backup. I still think that the Sharks are going deep in the playoffs,despite losing Ricci and Damphousse, their defense is still their. So I don't think they would trade Nabokov.

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05-23-2005, 04:59 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
Luongo is young enough that even if that team is 3-5 yrs from contension for the playoffs, Luongo will still be around. And he fills a position which is much harder to fill.
Luongo who is 26 now will be an UFA in 5 years, possibly even sooner, will he stick around in Florida then - its almost impossible to say now.

Regarding the stat that over half his games he only gave up 2 or less goals - a goalie who has a 2.50 GAA will have about 50% of his games with 2 or less goals and 50% of his games with 3 or more goals. The fact that 38/72 games were <=2 is not that impressive of a stat.

Franchise goalies have been traded before and will be traded again. There are always a few players like Luongo in the league and many top notch goalie prospects. There is only one player like Chara, so don't ignore the fact that Florida would be filling its biggest void and getting one of the best defenseman in the league.

One final point: A franchise goalie can carry a team through the playoffs, but *no goalie* can carry his team through the regular season AND the playoffs, especially not when you play as much as luongo.

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Old
05-23-2005, 05:03 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volchenkov
Franchise goalies have been traded before and will be traded again. There are always a few players like Luongo in the league and many top notch goalie prospects. There is only one player like Chara, so don't ignore the fact that Florida would be filling its biggest void and getting one of the best defenseman in the league.
How many franchise goalies have ever been dealt, when there was no reason - age/UFA factor, salary, off-ice issues, etc... how many examples can you come up with here?

Honestly if it came down to Chara for Luongo, Florida would never consider it, and Ottawa would be all over it.

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05-23-2005, 05:05 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volchenkov
Regarding the stat that over half his games he only gave up 2 or less goals - a goalie who has a 2.50 GAA will have about 50% of his games with 2 or less goals and 50% of his games with 3 or more goals. The fact that 38/72 games were <=2 is not that impressive of a stat.
When you're playing on the Panthers it is.

But neither team should do it. Luongo holds WAY more value than Chara, but if you're Ottawa you don't consider trading Chara.

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05-23-2005, 05:19 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
How many franchise goalies have ever been dealt, when there was no reason - age/UFA factor, salary, off-ice issues, etc... how many examples can you come up with here?

Honestly if it came down to Chara for Luongo, Florida would never consider it, and Ottawa would be all over it.
What meaning does that statement really have?
Forget goalies for a moment.... how many franchise players ever get traded without salary or primadonna-like whining (Roy & Lindros) being a factor.

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05-23-2005, 05:28 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
What meaning does that statement really have?
Forget goalies for a moment.... how many franchise players ever get traded without salary or primadonna-like whining (Roy & Lindros) being a factor.
you're right... franchise players don't get dealt.

And that's why it's unlikely that there'd even be talk between the Sens and Florida on this... but if Ottawa got a chance to get Luongo for Chara, don't you think they'd take it?

With Redden there, plugging up the goaltending long term with a guy like Luongo would be too good an opportunity to pass up.

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05-23-2005, 08:44 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
you're right... franchise players don't get dealt.

And that's why it's unlikely that there'd even be talk between the Sens and Florida on this... but if Ottawa got a chance to get Luongo for Chara, don't you think they'd take it?
They'd definitely consider that... but the only reason I'm in this thread is to fight the idea Chara, Havlat, Spezza & Emery for Luongo & Weiss would be anything more than a pipe dream for Florida Panther fans.

As for trading for or keeping Luongo... who knows how that would work out?
The Coyotes picked up Burke right away for nothing while adding a lot of much needed depth and talent at other positions. At first that worked out great. It certainly had given them enough time to develop another goalie.

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Old
05-23-2005, 10:09 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
They'd definitely consider that... but the only reason I'm in this thread is to fight the idea Chara, Havlat, Spezza & Emery for Luongo & Weiss would be anything more than a pipe dream for Florida Panther fans.

As for trading for or keeping Luongo... who knows how that would work out?
The Coyotes picked up Burke right away for nothing while adding a lot of much needed depth and talent at other positions. At first that worked out great. It certainly had given them enough time to develop another goalie.
As much as that would be a pipe dream for Florida fans, Ottawa seriously believin that Chara alone will warrant Luongo is even larger pipe dream. Not in the present situation. Its been said by more than a few people in this thread. But a certain Ottawa fan wants Weiss in addition to Luongo and doesn't want to give anything extra. So they don't create one hole by solvin another. They create two holes by (catch this) partially solving another. Florida has absolutely no reason to make this trade, so they're goin to need to wow Florida management and the fans after what has happened in the recent past. The Panthers need to breed a sense of stability and tradin two of Florida's more promising building blocks for questionable results isn't goin to do that. If you look back at what that was a response to, the offer from SensGod was Spezza, Havlat, and Emery for Luongo and Weiss. What goalie is goin to step in and replace Luongo's ability to keep Florida in most games (and that's what he really does)? What defenseman is goin to step in and save the day for a lesser talented goalie who may not be able to hang with the shots on net or the amount of games played? That deal is exactly what its goin to take from a Florida perspective, or they will further alienate the fragile fanbase they already have.

And let's look a why Phoenix got Burke dirt cheap. The offseason beforehand, Florida got Trevor Kidd, who was havin a hell of a start to the season, dirt cheap from Atlanta. Burke was makin a nice chunk of change to be a back-up at the time and Florida needed to cut cost to sell the organization. So they took Mikhail Shtalenkov to be the back-up and when Kidd went down about a month later, Florida was stuck lookin for another starter since Shtalenkov refused to take the role and responsiblity of bein a starter. And thus Florida ended up with Mike Vernon later that season. But I'd like to know who the goalie Phoenix presently has that they developed in the meantime, as the only goalie that I see close to bein developed in Phoenix is playin in Philly now.

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05-24-2005, 01:54 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
As much as that would be a pipe dream for Florida fans, Ottawa seriously believin that Chara alone will warrant Luongo is even larger pipe dream.
Really? Considering Havlat and Emery throw-ins in what could be a deal involving Luongo, Weiss for Chara, Spezza is less of a pipe dream?
We're smoking from a different pipe, my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
So they don't create one hole by solvin another. They create two holes by (catch this) partially solving another.... the offer from SensGod was Spezza, Havlat, and Emery for Luongo and Weiss.
I'm sorry... two holes? Does Luongo play two positions on your team... because I know you couldn't possibly be complaining about the upgrade from Weiss to Spezza.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
What goalie is goin to step in and replace Luongo's ability to keep Florida in most games (and that's what he really does)?
Damian Rhodes? Ron Tugnutt? What difference does it make after Jacques Martin installs his defensive system? Ottawa's rise was slowed by their lack of talent and inability to score, not defensive problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
But I'd like to know who the goalie Phoenix presently has that they developed in the meantime, as the only goalie that I see close to bein developed in Phoenix is playin in Philly now.
I'm not here to defend the competence of either Phoenix or Florida management teams (past or present). Sean Burke was acquired for nothing, provided stellar goaltending and gave Phoenix plenty of time to find/develop a replacement (which they wasted).

BTW: Did you know that a difference of .015 SV% over 65 games at 25 Sh/GP (Ottawa's average) is a difference of only 1 goal every 3 games?
Luongo would only stop 23 more goals in 65 games over goalies that would cost a hell of a lot less. That isn't even close to being worth Chara, Havlat and Spezza.

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05-25-2005, 06:44 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary
Really? Considering Havlat and Emery throw-ins in what could be a deal involving Luongo, Weiss for Chara, Spezza is less of a pipe dream?
We're smoking from a different pipe, my friend.
You may want to go back and look at that offer. Chara was not proposed in the Weiss and Luongo offer.



Quote:
I'm sorry... two holes? Does Luongo play two positions on your team... because I know you couldn't possibly be complaining about the upgrade from Weiss to Spezza.
Once again, Chara was not offered in that trade, translating into no improvement on defense and a sizable downgrade in net. So yes, two holes. As for an upgrade, points wise, definitely. But defensively and when it comes to leadership, I don't believe it will be an upgrade. Let's not forget, one of the big hypes about Weiss comin out his draft year was his ability to shut down Spezza. With the trade that was offered, Florida's ability to keep the puck out of their net gets sizably worse.



Quote:
Damian Rhodes? Ron Tugnutt? What difference does it make after Jacques Martin installs his defensive system? Ottawa's rise was slowed by their lack of talent and inability to score, not defensive problems.
But what has Martin's defensive system brought in the way of a Cup? What was the position that was the scapegoat of many Ottawa fans for not goin to the Cup? Oh, and what talent do you really see in Florida? Horton has a nagging shoulder problem limiting his two seasons. Keenan has a history of draftin nothin but third liners in the past ten years, so so much for Olesz. Hell, even Stewart is figured to be more of a third liner now. Krajicek has under perfromed in juniors. The supposed talent really isn't there.

Quote:
I'm not here to defend the competence of either Phoenix or Florida management teams (past or present). Sean Burke was acquired for nothing, provided stellar goaltending and gave Phoenix plenty of time to find/develop a replacement (which they wasted).
How often do you really find a goalie with that much ability available? Not often. Florida can not afford to continue to ostracize fans with rebuilding project after rebuilding project, and that's essentially what is bein proposed. They need to take the best chance they have to win, which is with Luongo in net, and build out from there. There are many one line teams in the NHL, but how many are really succesful? No one in net makes that team even worse.

Quote:
BTW: Did you know that a difference of .015 SV% over 65 games at 25 Sh/GP (Ottawa's average) is a difference of only 1 goal every 3 games?
Luongo would only stop 23 more goals in 65 games over goalies that would cost a hell of a lot less. That isn't even close to being worth Chara, Havlat and Spezza.
As I said, Ottawa should look for a different goalie. Its all about the law of supply and demand and what the seller's situation is determining their price. Right now, in many ways, its not advisable to deal with Florida with their situation.

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05-25-2005, 10:03 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
You may want to go back and look at that offer. Chara was not proposed in the Weiss and Luongo offer.
You made your own deal because you didn't like the one you saw. So did I.
Not that I would want to see the deal I posted happen either... but it was much closer to what might actually happen than yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
Once again, Chara was not offered in that trade, translating into no improvement on defense and a sizable downgrade in net. So yes, two holes. As for an upgrade, points wise, definitely. But defensively and when it comes to leadership, I don't believe it will be an upgrade. Let's not forget, one of the big hypes about Weiss comin out his draft year was his ability to shut down Spezza. With the trade that was offered, Florida's ability to keep the puck out of their net gets sizably worse.
"No improvement on defense"... isn't a hole that we're creating. Your defense would be just as bad as before with SensGod's offer.
First of all, Spezza was a leader and penalty killer in Bingo this season. Second, if your team is looking toward a 21 year old for leadership....

*I generally don't like talking about certain intangibles because it's kind of difficult to measure who has them and what that would actually bring to a team (and some teams will need it more than others). But when talking about kids... leadership is just about the last thing I think of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
But what has Martin's defensive system brought in the way of a Cup? What was the position that was the scapegoat of many Ottawa fans for not goin to the Cup?
Ottawa's goaltending has actually been solid in the playoffs for all but 1 game. It's the offense that has deserted us for long stretches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
How often do you really find a goalie with that much ability available? Not often. Florida can not afford to continue to ostracize fans with rebuilding project after rebuilding project, and that's essentially what is bein proposed.
How often do you find a true #1 defenseman nominated for a Norris? How often do you find a center capable of leading all centers in scoring?
Chara and Spezza/Spezza and Havlat are rebuilding project offers? ... What exactly would you be waiting for with these players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashCitiRockr
As I said, Ottawa should look for a different goalie. Its all about the law of supply and demand and what the seller's situation is determining their price. Right now, in many ways, its not advisable to deal with Florida with their situation.
Fine, you are saying "no deal". Why wouldn't you just say that before instead of posting a ridiculously insulting offer?


Last edited by trentmccleary: 05-25-2005 at 10:24 PM.
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Old
05-27-2005, 05:34 PM
  #87
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No No No....

YOU FOOLS,THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!

OTT. will toil with bad goalies for many years to come,we will not help you out

MUH HA HA!!!!!

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Old
06-01-2005, 09:35 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volchenkov
More specifically, Chara + Emery for Luongo + Krajicek, though the prospects being exchanged aren't the key to the deal.

Certainly controversial, but it fills a definite need for both teams.
Loungo is a great Netminder

it would take alot more then just then that to get him

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06-01-2005, 09:51 AM
  #89
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I think Luongo is way more valuable to most teams then Chara. From a Canucks standpoint I'd trade Jovo and Naslund/Morisson (IMO atleast equivalent to Chara) for Luongo. Also, I don't buy the idea that Hasek is going to be able to carry the Sens, I think he's done and the Sens need a quality replacement.

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06-01-2005, 10:16 AM
  #90
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According to this poll: http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=144664, Luongo is one of the 3 players with the most trade value in the NHL. If you want Luongo, start talking Chara, Spezza ++.

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06-01-2005, 10:56 AM
  #91
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agreed

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06-01-2005, 02:05 PM
  #92
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Chara + Spezza would get Ottawa any player in the league with something tacked on as well. It is certainly way too much for Luongo.

And I think this thread is more a philisophical debate between the relative worth of a defenseman and a goalie than anything else. Most people prefer a top flight goalie to a top flight defenseman, but I'm not convinced that is the correct aproach.

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06-01-2005, 06:35 PM
  #93
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Quote:
According to this poll: http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=144664, Luongo is one of the 3 players with the most trade value in the NHL. If you want Luongo, start talking Chara, Spezza ++.
Lets see that poll again with Chara in it. he would also be near the top.

Spezza, Chara ++ ??

LOL

Sure in fantasy land.

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06-01-2005, 07:30 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil

And I think this thread is more a philisophical debate between the relative worth of a defenseman and a goalie than anything else. Most people prefer a top flight goalie to a top flight defenseman, but I'm not convinced that is the correct aproach.
How don't you feel that is the correct approach? Look at the last decade of all the teams that have won the cup and 90% of them had top goalies at that point in time, rather than just a top defenseman. You need a great goalie to win the cup, the teams are just too good all around otherwise.

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06-01-2005, 08:23 PM
  #95
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The 3 main cup winners have Lidstrom, Blake, Stevens, Niedermier. The Wings won with Osgoode (not a good goalie), but had Lidstrom. All the perenial top flight teams arn't top flight teams because of their goalies, they are there because of the their teams. The top flight goalie gives them an edge, and lets them win cups, but if you take Lidstrom off the wings, do they win the cup?

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06-01-2005, 09:33 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
The 3 main cup winners have Lidstrom, Blake, Stevens, Niedermier. The Wings won with Osgoode (not a good goalie), but had Lidstrom. All the perenial top flight teams arn't top flight teams because of their goalies, they are there because of the their teams. The top flight goalie gives them an edge, and lets them win cups, but if you take Lidstrom off the wings, do they win the cup?
With the talent they had on those teams? More than likely. As dominating? Possibly not. But what do Blake, Neidermayer, and Stevens have? Consensus top goalie in the league at the time in net. What do most perenial contenders have, a goalie playin either above his head and on a hot streak, or a solid goalie. Ottawa is a perenial contender, but what were they lookin for to push them over the top? A goalie, demonstrated by the desperation signing of Hasek. Its funny that Lalime was the scapegoat playoff time, and numerous other times in the past, but a lot of Ottawa fans are tryin to sell a defenseman as bein more important. Its like a car salesman tryin to sell an '87 Yugo for its gas mileage. The worth for that one thing in particular is there, but overall the value isn't.

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06-01-2005, 09:34 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
The 3 main cup winners have Lidstrom, Blake, Stevens, Niedermier. The Wings won with Osgoode (not a good goalie), but had Lidstrom. All the perenial top flight teams arn't top flight teams because of their goalies, they are there because of the their teams. The top flight goalie gives them an edge, and lets them win cups, but if you take Lidstrom off the wings, do they win the cup?
I wholeheartedly agree. While people think of it as Chara VS Luongo, what they should think of is the potential impact Chara would have on any team, but especially with the Panthers, who are highly lacking in quality d-men. Chara can play 25-30 minutes per game with no problems, has little in the way of injury problems, scores goals on the PP and even strength, and can shut down nearly any player in the league. From Florida's POV even with arguably one of the top 3 goalies in the league, they still didn't make the playoffs. If they signed a run of the mill goalie and had a quality d-man in Chara would they make the playoffs? Well I think their chances would be better if they had Chara and a mediocre goaltender like Chris Osgood for example. But of course they also lack scoring, so really they may as well hold on to Luongo as he's the only portion of their team that's not a question mark.

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06-01-2005, 09:41 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Sens4Cup
I wholeheartedly agree. While people think of it as Chara VS Luongo, what they should think of is the potential impact Chara would have on any team, but especially with the Panthers, who are highly lacking in quality d-men. Chara can play 25-30 minutes per game with no problems, has little in the way of injury problems, scores goals on the PP and even strength, and can shut down nearly any player in the league. From Florida's POV even with arguably one of the top 3 goalies in the league, they still didn't make the playoffs. If they signed a run of the mill goalie and had a quality d-man in Chara would they make the playoffs? Well I think their chances would be better if they had Chara and a mediocre goaltender like Chris Osgood for example. But of course they also lack scoring, so really they may as well hold on to Luongo as he's the only portion of their team that's not a question mark.
I disagree with that whole post. Lulongo was basically the main reason Flordia did as well as they did last season. A guy like Osgood would get ripped up trying to stop 35-40+ shots a night. Heck, Flordia is building from the ground up and they already have two defenseman that are damn solid and have the ability to be a very solid #1-2 punch like Redden and Chara but in this case Boumeester and Van Ryn.

I would take 2 upcomign, young top defenseman and a top young goalie over 2 young developing defenseman and an established top defenseman whos age puts him out from the rest of the teams core. The Panthers have a similar makeup up the Ottawa of old, expect they have a legit #1 goalie and now the old coach of Ottawa that made the young guns turn into something great. No team looking to build a full team and laready have some very high quality young defenseman will trade a top young goalie for a top older than the rest of the core by 4-5 years defenseman. Sounds like a bad idea to me. Chara has some great value but for Lulongo, I don't think so.

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06-01-2005, 09:53 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
The 3 main cup winners have Lidstrom, Blake, Stevens, Niedermier. The Wings won with Osgoode (not a good goalie), but had Lidstrom. All the perenial top flight teams arn't top flight teams because of their goalies, they are there because of the their teams. The top flight goalie gives them an edge, and lets them win cups, but if you take Lidstrom off the wings, do they win the cup?
Last 10 years...

1993 - Montreal with Patrick Roy..enough said
1994 - Rangers with Mike Richter, who was a great goalie at the time
1995 - New Jersey with Martin Brodeur, enough said.
1996 - Coloardo with Patrick Roy, enough said.
1997 - Detroit with Chris Osgood, who was a great goalie at the time
1998 - Detroit with Chris Osgood, same as above
1999 - Dallas with Ed Belfour, top goalie at the time
2000 - New Jersey with martin Brodeur, enough said
2001 - Colorado with Patrick Roy, enough said.
2002 - Detroit with Dominik Hasek, top goalie at the time
2003 - New Jersey with Martin Brodeur
2004 - Tampa Bay with Nikolai Khabibulin, top 5 goalie at the time

Argue all you want but in the last 10 years, every team that has won the cup has basically had a top 5 goalie in the NHL at the time.....to win the cup you need a great goalie, average or middle of the pack won't cut it.

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06-02-2005, 12:15 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Last 10 years...

1993 - Montreal with Patrick Roy..enough said
1994 - Rangers with Mike Richter, who was a great goalie at the time
1995 - New Jersey with Martin Brodeur, enough said.
1996 - Coloardo with Patrick Roy, enough said.
1997 - Detroit with Chris Osgood, who was a great goalie at the time
1998 - Detroit with Chris Osgood, same as above
1999 - Dallas with Ed Belfour, top goalie at the time
2000 - New Jersey with martin Brodeur, enough said
2001 - Colorado with Patrick Roy, enough said.
2002 - Detroit with Dominik Hasek, top goalie at the time
2003 - New Jersey with Martin Brodeur
2004 - Tampa Bay with Nikolai Khabibulin, top 5 goalie at the time

Argue all you want but in the last 10 years, every team that has won the cup has basically had a top 5 goalie in the NHL at the time.....to win the cup you need a great goalie, average or middle of the pack won't cut it.
Actually in 1997, the Wings won the Cup with Vernon in nets, which just soldifies your point, because Vernon has over 300 wins and has been mentioned in Hockey Hall of Fame discussions.

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