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The Michael Del Zotto is a delsaster.

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Old
06-14-2013, 08:06 PM
  #351
LeetchisGod
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Originally Posted by JCresty View Post
The verdict is still out on DZ. Our system doesn't work for him. The way Torts plays defense, deals with pointmen, PP, rushes, transitions doesn't really translate to good things for offensive defensemen. It's not a free pass but if we were to trade him away to a team that has a system he will flourish under, it can easily be mini Montreal McDonagh D man trade bite in the ass.

With what people can say about his PP time, points and production and his ES time, points and production as well as his overall defensive play, there's too much on both sides of the argument. While he does get his points from the PP, our PP has got to be one of the worst in the last 4 years collectively. Does it really seem surprising to people that an all around d man like McDonagh will produce at a higher rate at ES than Del Zotto under Torts?

There's a sharp learning curve under Torts and many have flourished. Stepan being the solid 2 way forward he is has gotten the most out of Torts' system as has Callahan, Boyle (even with this year's RS stats), Prust etc. DZ however, is one that experienced that learning curve on the defensive side of things and he's never meant to be a #3 or #4 defenseman with his defensive game. He's meant to be a middle pairing D man because of his offense and that's why these threads exist.

I hate to constantly default to the Torts argument but it certainly applies here. He hasn't gotten along with the system in NY since day...3 or so?
Don't buy it one bit. What does Torts' system have to do with MDZ's subpar skating, horribly inaccurate shot and lackluster puckhandling at the point?

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06-14-2013, 09:04 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by LeetchisGod View Post
Don't buy it one bit. What does Torts' system have to do with MDZ's subpar skating, horribly inaccurate shot and lackluster puckhandling at the point?
His skating was never a strength and his puck handling hasn't been great especially in the past season. I'm not saying Torts had anything to do with his skating. His flaws are there and are pretty obvious at times but that's the downside to MDZ and has been known or acknowledge for years. Again, going by his defense and attributes, he's a #4-#6 in most systems and a #5-#6 on our team. Before the verdict drops that he's more helpful to the team as trade bait as opposed to being a part of the defensive core that can help with transitioning and offense, I would like to see a season where he gets an offensive role in a system that isn't offensively disjointed and has a structureless powerplay.

His inaccurate shot is more of a mentality problem and strategical issue than it is a attribution deficit. He either doesn't put much mind into accuracy when he's unsure what to do and resort to shooting as a last option or he tries to pick a hard to hit spot of the net as opposed to simply getting it on net.

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06-15-2013, 03:08 PM
  #353
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I don't dislike Del Zotto, just like I don't dislike Boyle. Some people on here just like to dislike players. Only Ranger I really hated was Avery.

I just see MDZ as the most reasonable candidate to be moved for a scoring forward. I don't like him on the power play, and that's basically what got him intoo the league in the first place. I think his offensive numbers have been inflated by being the best of a bad situation in PP blueliners, so that might inflate his trade value.

I would never trade McDonagh or Moore (Who we just got) and that leaves an injured Marc Staal as the alternative. There really is only one reasonable destination for Marc, and we've heard nothing in the way of rumors about it thus far.

I will say again; if we go into the season with Staal, McDonagh, Girardi, Moore, and Stralman, I am not at all worried about the blueline with Henrik in net. Not at all.
Very well put--though I didn't have any hate for Avery and I'm more inclined towards keeping Del Zotto if we're going to have a more offensively inclined coach. Even so Staal and McDonagh are our two best d-men and they're both left siders and Moore looks like a real player as well. DZ can be a frustrating player to watch and both his size and skating leave a bit to be desired. And if we were to trade DZ I'd expect a pretty good return back.

Arguing with some people here who are determined to parse any kind of deal involving DZ going elsewhere as us getting ripped off is a joke when it all depends on the return. Reminds me of Neil Smith saying to Mike Keenan that yeah he could deal James Patrick--that he wasn't married to him. He just didn't want to trade him for less than his value.

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06-17-2013, 09:55 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by JCresty View Post
His skating was never a strength and his puck handling hasn't been great especially in the past season. I'm not saying Torts had anything to do with his skating. His flaws are there and are pretty obvious at times but that's the downside to MDZ and has been known or acknowledge for years. Again, going by his defense and attributes, he's a #4-#6 in most systems and a #5-#6 on our team. Before the verdict drops that he's more helpful to the team as trade bait as opposed to being a part of the defensive core that can help with transitioning and offense, I would like to see a season where he gets an offensive role in a system that isn't offensively disjointed and has a structureless powerplay.

His inaccurate shot is more of a mentality problem and strategical issue than it is a attribution deficit. He either doesn't put much mind into accuracy when he's unsure what to do and resort to shooting as a last option or he tries to pick a hard to hit spot of the net as opposed to simply getting it on net.
I remember the first two years he came up, the dude would fly down the ice carrying end to end. Then that stopped. Now he skates as slow as Brad Richards, can't hit within 5 feet of the net AND plays terrible defense.

I think most of my posts the last 2 years are about how MDZ sucks.

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06-17-2013, 10:04 PM
  #355
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DZ is in that peculiar spot where there are a combination of factors contributing to his overall ineffectiveness and IF he is placed in a different environment whether that's a different team or a different system and does well, it will be a Brassard situation. Truth be told to all, he is not that bad. Compared to the guys that we have in Girardi, McDonagh, Staal, Moore and an exceptionally exceptional Stralman, it's a damning comparison by default for MDZ. Note: I do not think Moore is magic.

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Old
11-16-2013, 03:58 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Then you are not watching carefully.
Total missed shots
DZ ranked 24th this season at 41 missed shots, just ahead of Shattenkirk's 40 missed shots and behind the following:
PietrAngelo: 57
Buff: 56
Doughty: 55
PK Subban: 42
This stat has to stop being cited. Missed shots as a counting stat is irrelevant. The one that matters is missed shot % or however you want to define it. Raw numbers mean nothing. Obviously if he took 80 shots and missed 41 that is worse than if say Buff took 300 shots and missed 56 (extreme examples because I don't want to go look up actual numbers right now). Does anyone know where data is kept for total shots attempted by player rather than shots on goal?


Last edited by SA16: 11-16-2013 at 04:15 PM.
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11-16-2013, 04:07 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
This stat has to stop being cited. Missed shots as a counting stat is irrelevant. The one that matters is missed shot % or however you want to define it. Raw numbers mean nothing. Obviously if he took 80 shots and missed 41 that is worse than if say Buff took 300 shots and missed 56 (extreme examples because I don't want to go look up actual numbers right now). Does anyone know where data is kept for total shots attempted by player rather than shots on goal?
ExtraSkater.com, I'm sure.

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11-16-2013, 04:14 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
This stat has to stop being cited. Missed shots as a counting stat is irrelevant. The one that matters is missed shot % or however you want to define it. Raw numbers mean nothing. Obviously if he took 80 shots and missed 41 that is worse than if say Buff took 300 shots and missed 56 (extreme examples because I don't want to go look up actual numbers right now). Does anyone know where data is kept for total shots attempted by player rather than shots on goal?
How about this one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
Career shot %
Shattenkirk: 6.2
Doughty: 7.1
DZ: 7.2
Is that also misleading?

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11-16-2013, 04:15 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
This stat has to stop being cited. Missed shots as a counting stat is irrelevant. The one that matters is missed shot % or however you want to define it. Raw numbers mean nothing. Obviously if he took 80 shots and missed 41 that is worse than if say Buff took 300 shots and missed 56 (extreme examples because I don't want to go look up actual numbers right now). Does anyone know where data is kept for total shots attempted by player rather than shots on goal?
Found at http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...i&sortdir=DESC iFenwick is total shots attempted minus blocked shots - so essentially anything shot high or wide.

For defenseman last year who attempted at least 48 shots while at 5 on 5 (I'd rather all situations but it seems this site won't let me do that?).

1. Roman Josi 85.9% (78 attempts 67 SOG)
127 (last). Bryan Allen 46.94% (49 attempts 23 SOG)

37. Stralman 71.79% (78 attempts 56 on goal)
40. McDonagh 71.43% (105 attempts 75 on goal)
58. Del Zotto 68.89% (90 attempts 62 on goal)
111. Girardi 59.79% (97 attemptps 58 on goal)

Average:67.95% (6105 shots 8985 on goal)



And no Kwayry, your other one is not misleading but it is irrelevant. We are discussing his ability to hit the net - not his ability to score a goal given that the shot is on target.

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11-16-2013, 04:16 PM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
This stat has to stop being cited. Missed shots as a counting stat is irrelevant. The one that matters is missed shot % or however you want to define it. Raw numbers mean nothing. Obviously if he took 80 shots and missed 41 that is worse than if say Buff took 300 shots and missed 56 (extreme examples because I don't want to go look up actual numbers right now). Does anyone know where data is kept for total shots attempted by player rather than shots on goal?
I said this verbatim over the summer, so that makes two of us who aren't watching carefully.

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Old
11-16-2013, 04:26 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
ExtraSkater.com, I'm sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Found at http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...i&sortdir=DESC iFenwick is total shots attempted minus blocked shots - so essentially anything shot high or wide.

For defenseman last year who attempted at least 48 shots while at 5 on 5 (I'd rather all situations but it seems this site won't let me do that?).

1. Roman Josi 85.9% (78 attempts 67 SOG)
127 (last). Bryan Allen 46.94% (49 attempts 23 SOG)

37. Stralman 71.79% (78 attempts 56 on goal)
40. McDonagh 71.43% (105 attempts 75 on goal)
58. Del Zotto 68.89% (90 attempts 62 on goal)
111. Girardi 59.79% (97 attemptps 58 on goal)

Average:67.95% (6105 shots 8985 on goal)


Thanks for this site -31-. Amending my previous data to now include ALL situations and for players with at least 48 attempts (now I have only 96 players instead of 127? Not sure how that is unless either I filtered something wrong before or for some reason these sites have different data [maybe they had different filters based on showing players based on games played or TOI] but in any case it won't change the conclusions - just the sample)

1. Hunwick 82.6% (69 attempts 57 on goal)
96. Hamhuis 59.4 (105 attempts 62 on goal)

26. Stralman 73.3% (90 attempts 66 on goal)
41. McDonagh 70.1% (117 attempts 83 on goal)
78. Del Zotto 66.3% (122 attempts 81 on goal)
84. Girardi 63.8% (127 attempts 81 on goal)

Average: 69.8% (10240 attempts 7147 on goal)

The only conclusion I can make here is it looks like DZ really struggles with his shot on the powerplay while at even strength he is relatively fine. Hard to say much based on only 32 PP attempts (maybe slightly less due to possible shorthanded attempts) Unfortunately extraskater doesn't have data prior to last year so I can't go check his whole career

Edit: Difference in sample size is because extraskater filters for min 36 games last year.


Last edited by SA16: 11-16-2013 at 04:42 PM.
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Old
11-16-2013, 04:38 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Thanks for this site -31-. Amending my previous data to now include ALL situations and for players with at least 48 attempts (now I have only 96 players instead of 127? Not sure how that is unless either I filtered something wrong before or for some reason these sites have different data [maybe they had different filters based on showing players based on games played or TOI] but in any case it won't change the conclusions - just the sample)

1. Hunwick 82.6% (69 attempts 57 on goal)
96. Hamhuis 59.4 (105 attempts 62 on goal)

26. Stralman 73.3% (90 attempts 66 on goal)
41. McDonagh 70.1% (117 attempts 83 on goal)
78. Del Zotto 66.3% (122 attempts 81 on goal)
84. Girardi 63.8% (127 attempts 81 on goal)

Average: 69.8% (10240 attempts 7147 on goal)

The only conclusion I can make here is it looks like DZ really struggles with his shot on the powerplay while at even strength he is relatively fine. Hard to say much based on only 32 PP attempts (maybe slightly less due to possible shorthanded attempts) Unfortunately extraskater doesn't have data prior to last year so I can't go check his whole career
1 - Good work.
2 - Maybe you can list the players I listed in the raw missed shots for comparison?
3 - These stats are more compelling, but they essentially make the same point I was trying to make with raw missed shots, he is no worse than other established players. He seems to be hovering around the average, which is a far cry from the narrative on this board.

I think the shooting % is relevant in that it reinforces how underrated DZ is on this board.

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Old
11-16-2013, 04:47 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
1 - Good work.
2 - Maybe you can list the players I listed in the raw missed shots for comparison?
3 - These stats are more compelling, but they essentially make the same point I was trying to make with raw missed shots, he is no worse than other established players. He seems to be hovering around the average, which is a far cry from the narrative on this board.

I think the shooting % is relevant in that it reinforces how underrated DZ is on this board.
Sure

For all situations from last season:

Pietrangelo: 62% (150 attempts 93 on goal)
Byfuglien: 71.2% (198 attempts 142 on goal)
Doughty: 67.5% (169 attempts 114 on goal)
Subban:: 75% (168 attempts 128 on goal)

One thing to note is these guys shoot A LOT more. Obviously do not take this data as 100% accurate and meaningful because it's still small sample size but it's the best we have to work with. It's just numbers reflecting what happened last year not showing what will happen.

For ease you can get all the data here: http://www.extraskater.com/players/s...=D&season=2012 Just take FF and Shots and do Shots/FF for shot on goal%.

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11-16-2013, 06:02 PM
  #364
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Do we really need two Del Zotto threads? I don't think so.

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