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Best goalie ever?

View Poll Results: Best NHL Goalie ever?
"St. Patrick" Patrick Roy (3 Vezinas, 3 Conn Smythes) 46 37.40%
"The Dominator" Dominik Hasek (6 Vezinas, 2 Pearsons, 2 Harts) 36 29.27%
"Mr. Goalie" Terry Sawchuk (4 Vezinas, 102 Shutouts) 17 13.82%
"The Innovator" Jacques Plante (7 Vezinas, 1 Hart) 9 7.32%
"Mr. Butterfly" Glenn Hall (3 Vezinas, 1 Conn Smythe) 4 3.25%
Ken Dryden (6 Vezina trophies, 6 Cups) 11 8.94%
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-20-2005, 03:14 PM
  #26
Masao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Not to nitpick, but if one does not base his opinion on a player's career, what does he base it on?
Talent, perhaps? The topic title says "best" ...

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05-20-2005, 03:16 PM
  #27
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It's so hard to compare between generations. Also, Billy Smith could be in consideration for the list.

My pick would Patrick Roy

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05-20-2005, 03:20 PM
  #28
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Patrick Roy, 3 Conn Smythe trophies

No other goalie, or skater for that matter, has matched that, and I don't know if anyone ever will.

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05-20-2005, 04:20 PM
  #29
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wasn't my favorite player like - ever - that game seven against the devils was pure crap - but -

i think roy is untouchable

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05-20-2005, 04:28 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masao
Talent, perhaps? The topic title says "best" ...
Don't mean to get too philosophical here Maseo, but riddle me this:

What good is talent if it is not applied to produce results?

(Answer: not much. At least to this poster; perhaps you disagree.)

If we are going to judge an athlete based on his talent/skill level, than Alexander Daigle (or whichever flavor of the day, past or present) belongs in the same paragraph as Mario Lemeiux.

You get the point. Could of/would of/should of, based on talent or potential or other circumstances is specious. Results (careers) are concrete. Hence the nature of my original, rhetorical question.


Last edited by Trottier: 05-20-2005 at 04:36 PM.
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05-20-2005, 04:39 PM
  #31
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My opinion hasek or roy is the best Roy has more edge over Hasek

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05-20-2005, 05:51 PM
  #32
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Sawchuk closely followed by Hasek. Sawchuk gets the nod because of the longer career.

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05-20-2005, 05:54 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Many of these stats are very misleading. Goaltender wins, Save %, Shutouts and GAA are all so influenced by the team in front of the goalie that they are very inaccurate measures of a goalie's value. Goaltending stats should be scrapped as a measurement of who is the best.

The only way to properly guage a goalie's play is to watch him. Since we cannot watch all of these guys in action, we have to use eyewitness accounts. 1st and 2nd team all stars have been picked since 1931 and, although not perfect, it is the most effective way to judge the great goaltenders.
Yet you didn't vote for Glenn Hall who was an 11 time all-star?

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05-20-2005, 06:21 PM
  #34
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St.Patrick

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05-20-2005, 06:34 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSensSpezza939
My opinion hasek or roy is the best Roy has more edge over Hasek
Why?

Who's got a better save percentage? Better goals against average? Playoffs and Season. More Vezina trophies (in fact Hasek has 3 more then Roy) more Pearson trophies (Roy 0 Hasek 2), more Hart trophies (Roy 0 Hasek 2). Almost as many shutouts in half as many games played! Also who is the better goalie on one on? Obviously Hasek. In his prime who was better? Hasek. I love Roy being from Montreal but Hasek's the best ever period.

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05-20-2005, 06:50 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
Sawchuk closely followed by Hasek. Sawchuk gets the nod because of the longer career.

Short but good answer.

Roy might be the most overrated player in NHL history. I wouldn't even think of him in the context that the question was presented. It was against him that the Bruins ended the Montreal playoff jinx and beat him in five out of six series (88-94 inclusive). I just didn't see anything from Roy beside either really good defenses in front of him or one he failed to intimidate into being better than they actually were. His cocky attitude helped him perform but it also hurt him (Game 6 in '02 vs. Detroit? I'm sure you remember the one). His Montreal Cups ('86 and 93') were of the lucky-draw variety.

Sawchuk is still used as an example today for his propensity to stay square to the puck. He also accomplished everything he did when it was physically safe to stop the puck using only certain parts of the body/equipment and defense wasn't so tactical. Being a goalie was much more intimidating than it is in the let-it-hit-you era.

Hasek is certainly the most athletic goalie of the modern era, but even most of his famous contortions are rehearsed "what would you do if" maneuvers. Nonetheless, the '88 Nagano shootout alone validates him. The Cup with Detroit -- humbug; leading Buffalo from worst to first in 96-97 was a great accomplishment considering what a young team that was.

Brodeur deserved to be on this poll: He perfected a modern, non-butterfly style in the butterfly era (which may render him the prototype when the equipment gets shrunk -- Ranford and Hackett are the only other NHL starters I know that played that way), and he's won three Cups for a team that never makes it into any discussions about great teams.

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05-20-2005, 07:13 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Why?

Who's got a better save percentage? Better goals against average? Playoffs and Season. More Vezina trophies (in fact Hasek has 3 more then Roy) more Pearson trophies (Roy 0 Hasek 2), more Hart trophies (Roy 0 Hasek 2). Almost as many shutouts in half as many games played! Also who is the better goalie on one on? Obviously Hasek. In his prime who was better? Hasek. I love Roy being from Montreal but Hasek's the best ever period.
When you put it that way yeah Hasek is the best, but I don't know whenever you see Hasek between the pipes you think he let by 1 or 2 but when I see Roy in goal I'm always thinking shutout or 1 goal. But what do I know I'm from Chicago

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05-20-2005, 08:21 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BSensSpezza939
When you put it that way yeah Hasek is the best, but I don't know whenever you see Hasek between the pipes you think he let by 1 or 2 but when I see Roy in goal I'm always thinking shutout or 1 goal. But what do I know I'm from Chicago
Hehe first off welcome to the boards I hope you enjoy your stay here Secondly its the complete opposite in my mind. When I think of Roy I think he let 1 or 2 goals but when Hasek is on his game hes a shutout guy. But the best at that is Terry Sawchuk (102 shutouts).

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05-21-2005, 06:08 AM
  #39
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For me Sawchuk. Haven't seen him play that often. But 102 shutouts is IMO the most impressive goalie stat ever. And that in an era where goalies with an over 89 save% were considered good.

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05-21-2005, 06:37 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Dryden had 6 cups, 5 Vezinas, 5 1st team all star, 1 second team and 7 all star games in 7 full years and dont forget his Conn Smythe and Calder.
That's why he got my vote!

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05-21-2005, 11:36 AM
  #41
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Hasek.

Roy is NOT the most talented goaltender in NHL history. Sorry, but it was Hasek. Hasek had signifigantly better numbers than Roy, and only 3 less shutouts in about half as many games played.

If you look at his time with the Avs, it is obvious.

I agree with doc5hole, Roy is one of the most overrated in history. If he wasn't on the Avs, he wouldn't have been nearly as sucessful. That trade contributed a lot to the amount of wins he has. Personally, I cannot remember too many games that he won ON HIS OWN.
In 96 he had: Sakic, Forsberg, Deadmarsh, Kamensky, and Ricci on offense to score. On defense, he had: Foote, Lefebvre, and Ozolinsh.
In 2001 he had: Sakic, Forsberg, Hejduk, Tanguay, and Drury. Defense: Blake, Foote, and Bourque.

With that surrounding cast, you don't have to be the best, he just have to do your job and let your teammates score. Yet with his "allstar" teams he still didn't put up numbers as good as Hasek.

Hasek had nothing even resembling a defense or offense as good as Colorado's. Yet he put up even better numbers, won more Vezinas, and won more THREE hart tropies. Three times he was undoubtably better than Roy, voted better than any player in the NHL.

Roy's Vezina's came before Hasak - After Hasek showed up Roy didn't win a single one. Hasek, when up against Roy in voting who was the best, he won. 6 times.

Wins are not a very good measure of a goalie's talent or career. Roy proves this, he wasn't really the best but he won the most games, so casual fans consider him the best. ESPN's unrelentless hyping of him throughout his career also didn't help.

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05-21-2005, 11:44 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah obviously but Roy allowed far more bad goals then Hasek did. You didnt watch Roy when he was in Montreal. How there were talks that Racicot might replace Roy as the starter. Why was Roy traded again? If he was great then he would'nt have been traded just like that for like nobody in return. I can honestly tell you Roy allowed a lot of bad goals and many people on here see me as the biggest montreal canadiens homer on the boards and if I'm saying it then its true.
Are you serious? As I said ALL goalies allow bad goals. No exceptions. I've watched the Habs very closely since 1976 and the talk of Racicot replacing Roy was just typical pot-stirring by the Montreal media and was never to be taken seriously. Early in his career he was known for playing great for 58 minutes, but the other two minutes were cover-your-eyes brutal. That tendency started to fade after 86-87.

Roy was traded because he forced Reggie's hand, not because Montreal felt he was slipping. If you recall he won the Stanley Cup that same season. As for value in return; well since everyone knew the Habs HAD to trade him, everyone offered bare minimum to get him. Before Roy's outburst at Mario and Ronald Corey he was untouchable. Don't even ask.

The point of playing hockey in the NHL is to win the Stanley Cup. Period. The regular season is a warm-up, nothing more. Patrick Roy has been the MVP of the playoffs 3 times in the course of leading his team to the Stanley Cup. That puts him ahead of every goalie since the Conn Smythe trophy began getting awarded in terms of value to his team.

But I still think Sawchuk was better.

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05-21-2005, 11:58 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modestfwd
I agree with doc5hole, Roy is one of the most overrated in history. If he wasn't on the Avs, he wouldn't have been nearly as sucessful. That trade contributed a lot to the amount of wins he has.

In 96 he had: Sakic, Forsberg, Deadmarsh, Kamensky, and Ricci on offense to score. On defense, he had: Foote, Lefebvre, and Ozolinsh.

Personally, I cannot remember too many games that he won ON HIS OWN.
I can.

Game 4 Stanley Cup Finals, 1996 versus the Florida Panthers. Triple overtime. That great offense scored 1 goal in the Cup clinching game and it was scored by Uwe Krupp of all people. 1 goal in 5 periods.

Patrick Roy? 63 saves.

I'd say that one goes into the "on his own" column. In the playoffs. For the Cup. Where he is the best. Who cares if you do it in the regular season?

Hey if you think Hasek's better, be my guest. He certainly has enough to merit consideration on his own without trying to attack a guy you don't like. Point out all the positives for Hasek's case and I'll gladly listen and would even grant a few of those points. But keep the jealousy and attacks to yourself. You only damage your own argument.

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05-21-2005, 12:02 PM
  #44
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Whos carrer would you have ???
I`d take Roys any day, 3 cups and 3 connsmyths says it all

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05-21-2005, 12:27 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modestfwd
Roy proves this, he wasn't really the best but he won the most games, so casual fans consider him the best.
Actually, what some misguided fans do is "penalize" goalies for playing behind superb teams, as well as penalize players in general for having superb teammates.

Using this common, yet highly flawed, logic, Roy would only have been impressive had he won in Colorado without Forsberg, Sakic, Blake, etc. Fascinating.

Likewise, this "rationale" leads to goalies who don't win a damn thing on lousier teams gaining praise and undeservedly being put on a pedestal. (The "Tomas Vokoun/Marc Denis Complex".)

Yes, it's a team game. But silly me. I thought they power up the scoreboard each night to determine who is superior. Indeed, winning doesn't matter....In fantasy leagues. Ask any NHLer or coach what separates the great players from the very good ones. Especially goalies.

Yep, Roy (not unlike Brodeur, one supposes, following such "logic") has won multiple Cups just by "doing his job" and being the benficiary of great teammates. Winning four Cups in net? Easy as pie.

And overrated.

Only on HF, only on HF.

Here's a radical thought: good goalies stop the puck. Great goalies stop the puck and win. No if, ands or buts.

The rest is excuses and over-analysis.

As someone stated earlier, a solid argument could be made for any goalie on that list (As well as at least one who was curiously omitted.) But the case here against Roy - "he played on good teams" - is feeble.

Anytime anyone suggests that winning is not an important consideration in determining the greatness of ANY player/team...


Last edited by Trottier: 05-21-2005 at 12:39 PM.
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05-21-2005, 01:02 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Actually, what some misguided fans do is "penalize" goalies for playing behind superb teams, as well as penalize players in general for having superb teammates.

Using this common, yet highly flawed, logic, Roy would only have been impressive had he won in Colorado without Forsberg, Sakic, Blake, etc. Fascinating.

Likewise, this "rationale" leads to goalies who don't win a damn thing on lousier teams gaining praise and undeservedly being put on a pedestal. (The "Tomas Vokoun/Marc Denis Complex".)

Yes, it's a team game. But silly me. I thought they power up the scoreboard each night to determine who is superior. Indeed, winning doesn't matter....In fantasy leagues. Ask any NHLer or coach what separates the great players from the very good ones. Especially goalies.

Yep, Roy (not unlike Brodeur, one supposes, following such "logic") has won multiple Cups just by "doing his job" and being the benficiary of great teammates. Winning four Cups in net? Easy as pie.

And overrated.

Only on HF, only on HF.

Here's a radical thought: good goalies stop the puck. Great goalies stop the puck and win. No if, ands or buts.

The rest is excuses and over-analysis.

As someone stated earlier, a solid argument could be made for any goalie on that list (As well as at least one who was curiously omitted.) But the case here against Roy - "he played on good teams" - is feeble.

Anytime anyone suggests that winning is not an important consideration in determining the greatness of ANY player/team...
Then bro I guess Henri Richard was much better then Mario Lemieux? Henri won 11 cups to Mario's 2. Winning matters but when the numbers such as save percentage and goals against average are much better then Roy's even in the playoffs and the fact that when he did have a good team in front of him he's 1 for 1, what makes you even think he wouldn't have won more cups if he was on Roy's teams? That's what's silly to me.

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05-21-2005, 01:09 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Then bro I guess Henri Richard was much better then Mario Lemieux? Henri won 11 cups to Mario's 2. Winning matters but when the numbers such as save percentage and goals against average are much better then Roy's even in the playoffs and the fact that when he did have a good team in front of him he's 1 for 1, what makes you even think he wouldn't have won more cups if he was on Roy's teams? That's what's silly to me.
Because in 3 of his 4 Cup wins Roy was the BEST player on his team. In Haseks' 1 Cup win he was not even in the top 3 of the best players on his team.

Roy holds the fort when his teams need him most. His record in playoff overtimes is a testament to that. Somehow, someway a goal always seemed to elude Hasek at the wrong time. Defensive breakdowns were not uncommon for either of these two gentlemen, but Roy made the saves that Hasek didn't and his teams won.

Last time I checked you don't get rings for best playofff save percentage and GAA.

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05-21-2005, 01:13 PM
  #48
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I honestly have no answer when it comes to goalies, or at least no clear opinion, I don't think any of us have answers. When I was a kid, I thought Hall was trhe best. For a few years, Crozier kept an average Detroit team in a lot of games. Oldtimers told me Sawchuck was the man. In the 70's, I thought Dryden, then Parent was pretty impressive, then Billy Smith came on the scene. It would have been interesting to see Dryden with a poor team. I saw Billy Smith play in LA, but you can't really judge those days because he was developing, as he also was in his early NYI days. Roy, Hasek, close. Kovy, no one ever argued that Racocot should replace Roy. Hayward stole his #1 spot in the late 80's, but when you think about it, Roy was about 23, also still developing, even though he had 86 in his reume. Hasek, I always hesitate, he probably played the most games that had me shaking my head, but it seemd to me that eventually something would always go wrong. You know with some players, it seems that there's always a soap opera around them and I always had that feeling with Hasek, bit of a prima ballerina. Roy had some of that too, I guess. When you're talking all time performances, Theo's Hart/Vezina year, at least the last 40 games was as dominant as it gets. I've seldom seen a player carry a team like that. Amongst all timers, Bower is pretty overrated. He won 3 straight with a team that was often out matched in terms of speed and talent. I guess I'd go with Roy because he got it done 4 times. He was out dueled a few times but at least he got there. Hasek, as good as he was, didn't lift a team and get them there on his back as often as Roy did, so for that reason, I'd sat #33. It's hard to pick the goalie of the team you root for, because it's natural for a fan to blame his team's goalie/closer/QB. You always see the opposing goalie robbing [in your eyes] your team. I didn't pick Sawchuck because I have no idea how to distinguish between the excellence of Durnan/Sawchuck/Plante/Broda and guys like that.

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05-21-2005, 01:46 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Malefic74
Because in 3 of his 4 Cup wins Roy was the BEST player on his team. In Haseks' 1 Cup win he was not even in the top 3 of the best players on his team.

Roy holds the fort when his teams need him most. His record in playoff overtimes is a testament to that. Somehow, someway a goal always seemed to elude Hasek at the wrong time. Defensive breakdowns were not uncommon for either of these two gentlemen, but Roy made the saves that Hasek didn't and his teams won.

Last time I checked you don't get rings for best playofff save percentage and GAA.
Oh ya sure he made so many incredible saves in overtime in 1993. My oh my. 3/4 of those overtimes didnt even pass 5 minutes and many ended after 1 and a half minute! You should go watch some of the games before you talk.

Defensive breakdowns werent common for Hasek? How many times did they allow 2 on 1-s or breakaways in important times in important games? They were a tough forchecking team and as a result a lot of two on 1-s and breakaways were given up and Hasek kept them alive the majority of the time. I could honestly say those 1998-1999 playoff performances were as good as Roy's 1993, 1996 and 2001 performances. Yeah Hasek didn't win but it's because his teams were nowhere near contenders.

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05-21-2005, 02:33 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Oh ya sure he made so many incredible saves in overtime in 1993. My oh my. 3/4 of those overtimes didnt even pass 5 minutes and many ended after 1 and a half minute! You should go watch some of the games before you talk.

Defensive breakdowns werent common for Hasek? How many times did they allow 2 on 1-s or breakaways in important times in important games? They were a tough forchecking team and as a result a lot of two on 1-s and breakaways were given up and Hasek kept them alive the majority of the time. I could honestly say those 1998-1999 playoff performances were as good as Roy's 1993, 1996 and 2001 performances. Yeah Hasek didn't win but it's because his teams were nowhere near contenders.
I'm not just refferring to 93, although he does deserve some credit for it, game-savers can occur one minute into the first overtime as easily as they occur in the 16th minute. Even before then he seemed to crank it up in OT. Game 7 versus the Whalers in 86. Roy holds them in Lemieux pots the winner. Game 3 versus the Rangers in 86. 14 shots in 9 minutes in MSG including 4 in row off a faceoff. Roy's uncanny ability to raise his game in clutch situations was in evidence long before 1993. And those count towards his overtime record.

And if you take the time to read I said "breakdowns were not UNCOMMON." Means both had to deal with defensive lapses that gave up great scoring chances. Hasek probably moreso than Roy, but lets not kid ourselves. Both gentlemen had pretty decent defense.

Yes Hasek's 98 and 99 performaces were great. As were Roy's in 93, 96 and 2001 (plus 86). Looking past the fact that that's 4 to 2, (and not counting all the occasions when Patrick played great well but the team, including him, fell short like in 1989) the record suggests that for those great performances to mean as much as Patrick's do, Hasek needed at least one more save. Whether the team in front of him were contenders or not it all boils down to one more save. Based on who the engraver puts on the Cup Patrick made that one extra save 3 times more than Hasek.

Dom gets one back for Nagano though. Gotta give him that. So call the difference two saves.

And I still take Sawchuk over both.

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