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2013 Draft Part II: All Aboard the Nichushkin Train

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Old
06-27-2013, 01:32 PM
  #926
Jussijuice
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I'd go for bigger.

I think Buffalo would give up #8 + #16 + one of Pysyk/McCabe/McNabb for it. Their winger talent is empty and they might trade off Vanek which makes it near nonexistent. Grigorenko + Drouin is a solid start to a rebuild.

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06-27-2013, 01:32 PM
  #927
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Wonder if CGY would deal the 6 and the 22 or 28 for an opportunity to move up if Barkov is there? They've needed a franchise center for 15 years now. Grab Monahan with the 6 and Hagg, Morin, Morrissey or Mueller with the 22/28 and Hetherington/Theodore with the 35.

Talk about stock piling the system.

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06-27-2013, 01:41 PM
  #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
Sad thing there is the one team that we could get the best return on from a pick position and player/prospect standpoint is also a team that doesn't need him either (Edmonton). Not sure I'd be comfortable with trading down below 10th where Dallas is, and if we did trade with Dallas I'd want something like the #10, Chiasson, Larsen, and a 2nd for #5 and McBain. Then use that pick to draft Zadorov or Ristolainen.
If it is Drouin there, could go with Lindholm or Monahan still if we don't get a trade down partner.

At 10 I would take Zadorov and not look back.

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06-27-2013, 01:42 PM
  #929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrels View Post
Wonder if CGY would deal the 6 and the 22 or 28 for an opportunity to move up if Barkov is there? They've needed a franchise center for 15 years now. Grab Monahan with the 6 and Hagg, Morin, Morrissey or Mueller with the 22/28 and Hetherington/Theodore with the 35.

Talk about stock piling the system.
Yeah, that would put us deep to replace Joni and Gleason.

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06-27-2013, 01:45 PM
  #930
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Can't see the Flames trading a extra 1st just to move up one spot. Their system sucks.

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06-27-2013, 01:51 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by Brock Anton View Post
Can't see the Flames trading a extra 1st just to move up one spot. Their system sucks.
They apparently offered all 3 firsts to COL for the 1st. If they were targeting Drouin and he fell to 5, what's the difference? That's what I don't like about the "it's only dropping x spots" theory.

He isn't suddenly worth less because he dropped 4 spots.

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06-27-2013, 01:53 PM
  #932
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Maybe Brock, but if they view Barkov as highly as some do, and he is still sitting there at 5, it wouldn't surprise me for them to attempt a move up. Also, word out of CGY is they have mentioned several times that they were looking to package picks to move up. They NEED impact and franchise type players with Iginla and Kipper gone.

I do realize it is only one spot, but the drop off after the big 5 is fairly substantial. So our pick is extremely valuable.

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06-27-2013, 01:57 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by Jussijuice View Post
They apparently offered all 3 firsts to COL for the 1st. If they were targeting Drouin and he fell to 5, what's the difference? That's what I don't like about the "it's only dropping x spots" theory.

He isn't suddenly worth less because he dropped 4 spots.
Yeah they offered that because MacKinnon >>>>>>>>>>>> Monahan/Lindholm (at least one will be there at #6).

Barkov's not that much of a better prospect than Monahan and Lindholm (he may not be better at all, surely some teams have the one of the latter two higher on their board, possibly us). So unless Calgary is seriously enamored with Barkov, there's no need to trade a valuable pick to move up one slot where there are other potential #1 centers there.

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06-27-2013, 02:00 PM
  #934
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NHL ready for next season:

Jones - Despite experience, he's a trial by fire learner. He doesn't stand to gain much by staying in the WHL. With no logical half-step being available, he's going to play in the NHL next season.

MacKinnon - Elusive enough to survive NHL checking and defensively responsible enough to not be an embarrassment. Not even getting into his elite offensive abilities.

Drouin - Ditto MacKinnon, but faster and less offensive. Likely the one most vulnerable to checking of the bunch because of his Skinner-like ability of holding the puck too long at times.

Barkov - Strength offsets poor skating and makes him well suited for a lower line role. Perhaps the player that will look the part of an NHL player first despite being one of the youngest forwards available.

Nichushkin - Strength, size, and speed. Zero question about physical readiness here. The concerns are entirely based around his mental approach to the game and his willingness to adapt.

Monahan - Good enough size, good enough skating, good enough strength, fantastic awareness. Smart hockey players usually don't have a lot of trouble picking up the pace of where they play.

Domi - Many will scream "undersized!", about my inclusion of Domi on this list. However, he's a player that has dominated his league and he's built like a fire hydrant. A couple of years will not change what will always be in question about Domi. He'll be ready to play.

Lazar - One of the best defensive prospects available, Lazar has been criticized for not being offensive enough in his mindset at the Junior level. In regards to readiness to play in the NHL, defensively he's already in that mindspace. However, it's likely that his NHL team will want him to hit the switch on some pretty elite offensive upside before they bring him in. Otherwise, they will limit him.

Horvat - Similar to Lazar, Horvat is a defensive player first and a scoring player second. His leap of Lazar has a lot to do with the fact that his willingness to play an offensive style of hockey is not in question, it just wasn't required of him in London. He played the role he was given. Future Captain material. Could have success in a lower line role right now.

Notable exclusions: Lindholm, Ristolainen, Nurse, Zadorov, Shinkaruk.

There are quite a number of guys who COULD play in the NHL next year that won't for any number of reasons due to organizational outlooks on playing 18 year old players in the NHL.

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Old
06-27-2013, 02:10 PM
  #935
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I really think the Lightning go with Barkov now, or they possibly trade down a few spots to take one of the other centers.

If that happens, all bets about the top 5 are off.

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06-27-2013, 02:37 PM
  #936
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I still say

1-MacK
2-Jones//Drouin
3-Barkov
4-Jones//Drouin
5-Nichushkin

And even if Tampa were to trade the 3rd, whoever takes it will probably take Barkov to and if they don't, Nashville will. I just don't see Nichushkin going higher than 5.

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06-27-2013, 03:30 PM
  #937
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I would really like us to take Viktor Arvidsson in the third round if he's still there, a winger with a great shot who was a big part of Skellefteås gold. 8 points (6+2) on 13 matches post-season. Was good in the WJC also.

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06-27-2013, 09:59 PM
  #938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrels View Post
Woodlief was just on xm radio. Fwiw: Said TB loves nichushkin! Expects them to take him
When I covered my first draft (2003 in Nashville), I sought out Woodlief because I really liked his stuff. After meeting him and hanging with him through two draft weekends I can say with relative certainty that he's full of crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
... Then there were two later round picks where it seemed like JR might have struck gold (Anderson and Hofmann) and both wouldn't sign.
You guys know I've given up hope on the Rutherford Era, so my opinions are biased that way, but for a team in our situation to be unable to sign quality overseas prospects is just inexcusable. Especially when you consider it probably came down to less than 100 grand or the guarantee of an AHL roster spot to get the deals done. We simply have to get these guys in the system. There's no excuse.

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06-28-2013, 04:21 AM
  #939
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Me personally I have wanted Drouin all along. People will knock his size, but you can clearly see he doesnt shy away from being hit he puts his shoulder into those hits. Also a line of Staal Drouin Ruutu would be flat out amazing. Drouin would be making some ridiculous passes to open guys. He is more a playmaker than a scorer, and thats what this second line needs! If we dont pick him and hes there at 5 I am just going to be sick.

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06-28-2013, 04:38 AM
  #940
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Also a line of Staal Drouin Ruutu would be flat out amazing. Drouin would be making some ridiculous passes to open guys. He is more a playmaker than a scorer, and thats what this second line needs! If we dont pick him and hes there at 5 I am just going to be sick.
If he's more of a playmaker than a scorer, wouldn't it make sense to put him on a line with guys that have scoring ability? To me, J. Staal and Ruutu are more crash and bang players that make space for others, score goals close in, and while they can score, they aren't overly skilled scorers. Early on, JStaal seemed to have good chemistry with Skinner and I remember Muller even talking about it. He said Skinner was feeding off of the space Jordan was creating and could read the play well and cash in on it. It seemed to fall apart later in the season.

I guess you can never tell until people get put together (few of us would have predicted Tlusty would be a match for E. Staal either). I'd still like to see them try another big (or at least physical), defensively responsible forward on that line with Staal and Ruutu. They could then be the defensive shut-down line AND be a line that wears other teams down and can still score. Maybe make the 3rd line a scoring line that goes up against the other team's weaker competition.

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06-28-2013, 09:44 AM
  #941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
If he's more of a playmaker than a scorer, wouldn't it make sense to put him on a line with guys that have scoring ability? To me, J. Staal and Ruutu are more crash and bang players that make space for others, score goals close in, and while they can score, they aren't overly skilled scorers. Early on, JStaal seemed to have good chemistry with Skinner and I remember Muller even talking about it. He said Skinner was feeding off of the space Jordan was creating and could read the play well and cash in on it. It seemed to fall apart later in the season.

I guess you can never tell until people get put together (few of us would have predicted Tlusty would be a match for E. Staal either). I'd still like to see them try another big (or at least physical), defensively responsible forward on that line with Staal and Ruutu. They could then be the defensive shut-down line AND be a line that wears other teams down and can still score. Maybe make the 3rd line a scoring line that goes up against the other team's weaker competition.
I'm not so sure that the issue is lack of chemistry between JStaal and Skinner; it very well could be that there was no viable 3rd piece to that line. For a couple of games I thought Dalpe played well with that tandem and then he got sent down. Bowman, Dwyer, LaRose, and I even believe Wallace took a turn on the 2nd line, but none of those guys seemed to click (surprising to me regarding Bowman). So I believe that chemistry is really a 3 player deal when talking about a line....not just Jeff and Jordan.

I recall several conversations in previous years about how not having the viable 3rd option on a line caused the two other players to receive more defensive attention, thereby making it more difficult for them to score. I am still of the mind that the Skinner/JStaal/Ruutu line will be quite productive. If not, then let the Skinner centering the 3rd line experiment continue....and put a banger and a playmaker on that line. We would then roll 3 solid scoring lines....would need to be sure that one or more of Skinner's linemates proved to be a solid 2-way player.

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06-28-2013, 10:37 AM
  #942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton View Post
If he's more of a playmaker than a scorer, wouldn't it make sense to put him on a line with guys that have scoring ability? To me, J. Staal and Ruutu are more crash and bang players that make space for others, score goals close in, and while they can score, they aren't overly skilled scorers. Early on, JStaal seemed to have good chemistry with Skinner and I remember Muller even talking about it. He said Skinner was feeding off of the space Jordan was creating and could read the play well and cash in on it. It seemed to fall apart later in the season.

I guess you can never tell until people get put together (few of us would have predicted Tlusty would be a match for E. Staal either). I'd still like to see them try another big (or at least physical), defensively responsible forward on that line with Staal and Ruutu. They could then be the defensive shut-down line AND be a line that wears other teams down and can still score. Maybe make the 3rd line a scoring line that goes up against the other team's weaker competition.
You've hit on yet another stalwart of the Rutherford Era that makes me crazy, the "slotting" of players. Tossing around line combinations is fine for message board crazies like ourselves, but as far as the actual lineup goes, it should be determined by the players by how they work together in training camp and practices. But JR likes to have all this stuff figured out, then jam it down everybody's collective throat. The GMs job is to sign guys and get them to camp, after that, it's up to the coach and players to determine lines and ice time. I've never seen a GM more concerned with how a player "fits" before he even puts on the practice jersey for the first time.

As for the No. 5 pick, with all the recent misdirection and misinformation, it seems that just about everyone is in play at No. 5. With that in mind, I hope we do what it takes to get the guy we want. All these picks are in play. It seems to me to be very similar to 2003, when each of the teams at the top had a different target. Instead of letting the other teams jockey and taking BAP at our spot, I hope we actually do the jockeying necessary to get the guy we want. I have no idea who our guy is in the Top 5 (although I'd assume Jones is attractive), I just hope we do something to actually get him.

Here's what I think will happen: I think Colorado is getting ready to school the entire NHL on how to use the draft to rebuild (I hope JR is taking notes).

MacKinnon goes No. 1 to Florida. I think Florida and Colorado will flip-flop at the top. Florida really needs the No. 1 center MacKinnon as opposed to Drouin, Jones or anyone in the second tier. The Avs will benefit from their flexibility (I think they'd be fine with any of MacKinnon, Drouin, Barkov or Jones) to pick up an extra pick or a mid-level roster guy, but not a windfall.

Barkov goes No. 2 to Nashville. Then I think the Avs will tweak Yzerman in Tampa Bay and Poile in Nashville, who both pretty obviously covet Barkov, and maybe even get another asset or two. If they can't, they take Jones at No. 2, but I think he'll get one of them to bite. I'll guess Poile, only because he has more depth to deal from.

Drouin goes No. 3 to Tampa Bay.

Jones goes No. 4 to Colorado.
________

IMO, if Carolina wants Jones or Drouin, as opposed to "who's left after the top 4 go," they should be in contact with Steve Yzerman. With MacKinnon and Barkov off the board, I think Tampa Bay would prefer Drouin, but could live with Nichushkin, who pretty clearly falls to No. 5 or below in this scenario. So we could actually sneak into the picture with Jones if we're willing to move up two spots.

As I said, I don't think this is going to happen, and I think we'll take Lindholm at No. 5 after the big 4 go as planned. But if we did make a deal to get to No. 3, we'd do it to get Jones and the rest of the top 5 would look like:

Jones goes No. 3 to Carolina.
Drouin goes No. 4 to Colorado (spectacular draft, move back *twice* and still get Drouin).
Nichushkin goes No. 5 to Tampa Bay.

In short, Carolina needs to be ready to act if Jones gets past No. 2.


Last edited by totalkev: 06-28-2013 at 10:42 AM.
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Old
06-28-2013, 10:49 AM
  #943
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Drouin is going to be even worse at defense than Skinner. Skinner was unable to handle the defensive responsibilities of playing wing on jStaal's wing.

Druin/Staal/Ruutu seems like a great plan if we're shooting for some -35 plus minuses.

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06-28-2013, 11:43 AM
  #944
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With what assets is Carolina going to jump up? They're low as it is.

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06-28-2013, 12:03 PM
  #945
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With what assets is Carolina going to jump up? They're low as it is.
If anything we should be trading down with Edmonton for an extra 2nd.

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06-28-2013, 12:18 PM
  #946
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I'm fine with any one of Nichushkin, Lindholm, Barkov, or Monahan whether that is at 5 or 6-7 if JR can manage to trade to trade down for an extra early pick.

Only situation I would definitely trade down, for a kings ransom, is if Drouin falls to 5. Not the type of player the Canes need.

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06-28-2013, 12:23 PM
  #947
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Here's a scenario I've been thinking about.

Carolina trades:
#5

to

Buffalo
for

#8
Joel Armia
#52 (or worst case #69)

The big Finnish power forward is coming off of a championship year w/Assat Pori. Buffalo then packages #5 and #16 to move up even further (or #5 and #38). Their target is one of Nichushkin but more probably Barkov. My guess is that they may be able to move Vanek at the draft (hello Calgary) if they choose.

We end up with a great prospect whom many of us were high on last year plus another 2nd (or 3rd) round pick. With #8 we have our pick of Ristolainen, Zadorov, or even Nurse (hope not) or if we go offense again there's Gauthier, Zykov, or Shinkaruk (or a stretch w/Wennberg).

Sure we trade out of the top 7 but end up with a great talent in Armia, a defensive stud (my preference), and another pick in the 2nd or 3rd round. While Armia is arguably Buffalo's top prospect, if they want one of the big 5, this might make sense for them. Of course, we've never done a deal with Buffalo, but I'd like this scenario.

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06-28-2013, 12:37 PM
  #948
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Wouldn't drop out of the top-7 unless a higher end prospect was coming back (Gormley situation) or an additional 1st was included (Buffalo's 16th)

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06-28-2013, 12:40 PM
  #949
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Greg Wyshynski ‏@wyshynski 38m

MacKinnon says Avs have not told him he's their pick

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06-28-2013, 02:02 PM
  #950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussijuice View Post
I'm fine with any one of Nichushkin, Lindholm, Barkov, or Monahan whether that is at 5 or 6-7 if JR can manage to trade to trade down for an extra early pick.

Only situation I would definitely trade down, for a kings ransom, is if Drouin falls to 5. Not the type of player the Canes need.
i do hope that they can somehow get multiple picks and i understand that the draft isn't going to solve close to most of the canes issues but i've read this, "not the type of player the canes need" or something like it, many times now. i know they have to prioritize but in reality THE CANES NEED EVERY TYPE OF PLAYER.

not including prospects that aren't very deep anyhow, they currently have 5 good forwards (stretch that to six)(i don't believe they are being used right/only positioned out of necessity) and 1 good defenseman (stretch that to two). i think they can use any and all help they can get.

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