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Old
05-29-2013, 03:37 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
that's a pretty crappy excuse... they're legal at basically every other level of baseball and nobody complains
That's because wooden bats break and you aren't going to make college or high school kids keep paying for their own bats. If they could perfect what they've done in college ball to make metal bats perform like wooden ones, I would be fine with using metal bats.

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/...aspx?id=179053

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05-29-2013, 03:43 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
How the hell can you put a two hour time limit on baseball when there is no clock? NHL and NBA games last 2.5 hours and the NFL lasts 3 and you want MLB games to be less than that?

And metal and aluminum bats should be legal? You're basically putting a weapon in the hands of a hitter. You think a line drive at the pitcher is hard with a wooden bat? Speed it up even more with an aluminum bat.
Pitch Clock. People want to see gaudy stats.

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05-29-2013, 03:45 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
That's total nonsense. Baseball has as many different champs the last 11-12 years as the NBA does in 30.
So why do people complain about the lack of parity? Is everyone else wrong.


NBA and MLB have the same issues, but baseball has no marketable stars now so they are getting hurt more.

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05-29-2013, 03:50 PM
  #79
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I read a diatribe in a book by ex-Cardinals manager Whitey Herzog that talked about something that I'm certain is related to a demise in rating for MLB is a lack of accessibility to the game of baseball in many cities in the US. In the 70's and '80 when inner-city kids were playing baseball as a stepping-stone out of their reality (see George Hendrick playing his way out of Watts), baseball was driven by speed, base-stealing, and slick defense that was (to me at least) aesthetically more interesting for kids that already had short-attention spans.

As a kid playing little league baseball in West St. Louis county, it was easy to translate an interest in the Cardinals and all of the strategies, match-ups, etc. that baseball had to offer in the heat of the summer. It gave us hours of scenarios to solve and argue over. Now in the New South (NashVegas), I see more soccer parks than baseball diamonds likely because they are cost-effective. If you think about civic finances, baseball requires a fair amount of undeveloped space, equipment, 18+ people to play, and unlimited time whereas soccer and basketball have less stringent requirements for specialized equipment and fewer people hanging around. So if you translate what kids are playing into what the media offers, the demographics say to start showing more basketball and English Premiere League/MLS.

If MLB wants to remain relevant in the media, they need to invest in bringing baseball back to the inner-city with fields and equipment and get those kids playing basketball to want to play another game they could make a living at too. The same can be said about the NHL needing to invest in a program to bring more rinks into the southern expansion markets. There is almost no ice time at the three facilities here in Nashville for the hockey/skating already in place here. They both could greatly enhance themselves by bringing the tools of the game to the masses.

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05-29-2013, 03:53 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
So why do people complain about the lack of parity? Is everyone else wrong.
People complain about how forever poorly ran franchises like the Royals and Pirates don't make the playoffs. Meanwhile, well run low budget teams like the Rays and A's contend quite often.

If your team sucks, it because it's ran like garbage, not because baseball lacks parity.

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05-29-2013, 03:55 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Pitch Clock. People want to see gaudy stats.
And what if it's a high scoring game where it takes a long time to get outs and they're only in the 6th inning after two hours? What do you do then? Call them game with the score as it is? What if it's tied?

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05-29-2013, 04:06 PM
  #82
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The thing about the boomers' love of baseball: you're talking about a group of people who, at this point in their lives, are about at the peak of their earning potential, so I believe that translates to record revenues. My gut says there's a point when a baseball dropoff becomes very distinct at the time it happens; it'll fall hard. My head says enough markets have a history that they'll carry the load in an interim phase... or perhaps to a point where someone figures out something to rekindle the sport's popularity.

It cannot be steroids. The fact that baseball is trying to get back into the Olympics... yeah.

MLB is funny because you can get four hot pitchers and make a run at a World Series. The problems: if you're not a major market, no way in Hades you can keep those players from the Yankees or Red Sox (or perhaps even the Giants or Rangers now). The continuity is broken... AAA is no longer the minors (in reality, it's a reserve league of little distinction), it's the have-nots in the NL and AL developing players for those above. Since not everyone simply follows a logo, this is a problem.

I do not know if the minor leagues are a canary in the proverbial coal mine. The minors kind of blossomed in the 90s and into the 00s. Some measure of "growing" interest is still claimed, but many believe this a lie. It's getting harder to build new ballparks, partly because several of them are causing nasty debt loads to cities (or even developers who went private in their builds). I know I'm seeing PCL attendance in certain markets go down and yet still lead the league, so the league has to find new ballparks to keep the attendance up. That cycle between failure to new park to lessening attendance is shortening.

I'll stress again... something could happen to shoot baseball back up the ladder. But what? Barring that, the outlook is bleak.

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05-29-2013, 04:24 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
They go to drink and be idiots.
That's pretty much the M.O. of everything 20 somethings do anywhere they go. They dont need to come to MLB games to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
So why do people complain about the lack of parity? Is everyone else wrong.
The facts often paint a different picture than popular perception. People assume because baseball has no hard salary cap and teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers outspend most other teams that there's no parity but in the last 25 years baseball has the most different teams playing in their league championship than any of the other 3 major sports.

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NBA and MLB have the same issues, but baseball has no marketable stars now so they are getting hurt more.
No marketable stars? If your baseball world consists of the Pirates, Royals, and Padres maybe. Guys like Pujols, Cabrera, Jeter, Verlander, Ryan Howard, Joe Mauer, etc. and their multiple National commercial endorsements would beg to differ.

Thats a funny accusation to throw around coming from fan's of a game where the "face of the league" is universally despised outside of his home city and no other player even registers on the national radar.


Last edited by IceAce: 05-29-2013 at 04:36 PM.
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05-29-2013, 04:33 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
People complain about how forever poorly ran franchises like the Royals and Pirates don't make the playoffs. Meanwhile, well run low budget teams like the Rays and A's contend quite often.

If your team sucks, it because it's ran like garbage, not because baseball lacks parity.
I'd say your average fan (who couldn't name a player on the Royals or Pirates) is more upset by the fact that the 3 or 4 best teams in baseball perennially stack their roster with free agents that were developed in other organizations.

Probably the single biggest turn-off for me with baseball isn't the speed of the game, but the fact that there are only a small handful of teams with recognizable players. It's to a point that I don't even know who plays on about 25 of the teams anymore. Not being a big fan of the Yankees or Red Sox, that makes the vast majority of MLB games about as engaging as watching two community college teams.

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05-29-2013, 06:48 PM
  #85
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The facts often paint a different picture than popular perception.
Likely true... but this particular perception is friggin' huge. Sometimes the perception wins out, and baseball seems powerless to stop it.

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05-29-2013, 08:14 PM
  #86
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Baseball has more parity that most people expect or realize because it is more random than most other sports. Baseball simply has more luck, NBA has the least luck.
The randomness really shows in short playoff series.
Rich teams can buy consistent playoff appearances, but after that the randomness takes over.

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05-29-2013, 08:51 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by PCSPounder View Post
The thing about the boomers' love of baseball: you're talking about a group of people who, at this point in their lives, are about at the peak of their earning potential, so I believe that translates to record revenues. My gut says there's a point when a baseball dropoff becomes very distinct at the time it happens; it'll fall hard. My head says enough markets have a history that they'll carry the load in an interim phase... or perhaps to a point where someone figures out something to rekindle the sport's popularity.

It cannot be steroids. The fact that baseball is trying to get back into the Olympics... yeah.

MLB is funny because you can get four hot pitchers and make a run at a World Series. The problems: if you're not a major market, no way in Hades you can keep those players from the Yankees or Red Sox (or perhaps even the Giants or Rangers now). The continuity is broken... AAA is no longer the minors (in reality, it's a reserve league of little distinction), it's the have-nots in the NL and AL developing players for those above. Since not everyone simply follows a logo, this is a problem.

I do not know if the minor leagues are a canary in the proverbial coal mine. The minors kind of blossomed in the 90s and into the 00s. Some measure of "growing" interest is still claimed, but many believe this a lie. It's getting harder to build new ballparks, partly because several of them are causing nasty debt loads to cities (or even developers who went private in their builds). I know I'm seeing PCL attendance in certain markets go down and yet still lead the league, so the league has to find new ballparks to keep the attendance up. That cycle between failure to new park to lessening attendance is shortening.

I'll stress again... something could happen to shoot baseball back up the ladder. But what? Barring that, the outlook is bleak.
I agree with what you're saying. That's why I was saying any challenges are probably a good 20-30 years off before the possible drop, because it's a numbers game: Boomers/Early Xers make up a significant portion of the population right now in the US-and as they pass on in the next 25-30 years, the drop in population, which is going to affect everything from sports to jobs to what have you, none of the sports will be immune (with the exception of maybe NFL possibly, everyone seems to love that).

As far as the ballparks, my gut reaction is to look at the Florida Marlins new stadium fiasco and lack of people, but my brain says maybe there's more to that situation in regards to politics or what have you. I DO notice that there is a trend to instead go the "upgrade" route while keeping the same basic ballpark-perhaps trying to keep the loyal fanbase coming back to something familiar, instead of a "shiny new toy" park.

The boomers really are hitting the peak of earning/retirement right now, and I can see a decent surge in the NEAR future possibly, as many of them choose to spend their retirement years doing what the love-watching baseball. But they won't be here forever, and what happens when the population drop happens over the next generation of 20-30 years-it's not just an "interest" situation, it's an absolute lack of physical bodies situation.

There are no easy answers.

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05-29-2013, 08:59 PM
  #88
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I throw this out as a Devil's Advocate comment/thought, and would like feedback.


IF MLB is healthy, and IF there are no worries about , what is the reasoning then for interleague play, addition of playoff and wildcard teams (and last year adding a 2nd Wild Card team to each league)?

I mean IF indeed the sport is truly healthy, and there are no worries, why put in the "gimmicks" as some purists would say?

The answers I've read in columns keep coming back to the "everyone wants to feel their team has a chance"/"makes it more exciting". Why would the MLB worry about making it "more exciting" if they were content with the health of the league? The fans should be quite happy with the current setup should they not ("current" being back before this stuff was introduced)

Again, asking ONLY as Devil's Advocate, and looking for feedback.

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05-29-2013, 10:53 PM
  #89
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I love interleague play because playing only 13 or 15 teams per year is stupid. These are only gimmicks to old people who liked things the way they were before WWII.

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05-29-2013, 11:19 PM
  #90
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MLB, like the NBA and NHL, has become a regionalized sport. It's not going to do big numbers on a national stage, at least not in a regular season weekend game in May.
its also early in the season....numbers will pick up in June after most NHL and NBA teams are out of the playoffs.

the other problem is FOX has pretty much destroyed the weekly game of Saturday baseball.

Before it was a regular Saturday tradition, now its very regionalized and the games are on at inconsistent times---not the same weekly start times.

What also has hurt is not having big national rivalry series on.

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05-29-2013, 11:30 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I throw this out as a Devil's Advocate comment/thought, and would like feedback.


IF MLB is healthy, and IF there are no worries about , what is the reasoning then for interleague play, addition of playoff and wildcard teams (and last year adding a 2nd Wild Card team to each league)?

I mean IF indeed the sport is truly healthy, and there are no worries, why put in the "gimmicks" as some purists would say?

The answers I've read in columns keep coming back to the "everyone wants to feel their team has a chance"/"makes it more exciting". Why would the MLB worry about making it "more exciting" if they were content with the health of the league? The fans should be quite happy with the current setup should they not ("current" being back before this stuff was introduced)

Again, asking ONLY as Devil's Advocate, and looking for feedback.
They need to add more teams to the playoffs because the league is much of a have/have nots where onkly the wealthy big market teams have playoff teams.

Had they had true revenue sharing and hard salary caps then you would have more balance.

If they didnt have expanded playoffs then small market teams would be out and september attendance would plumet, but by adding another team or two to the playoffs would have team realize they still had a chance and a motivation to play.

as a result of the increased races more fans came out.


I like how interleague play is done---personnally I would have added more games where teams do home and home.

i also would change the playoffs to be 6 teams with top 2 getting byes then the bottom 4 playing best of 5, the next 4 playing best of 5, and then the remainder of the playoffs would be best of 7.

Remember in the NHL making playoffs tend to equate to profits vs breaking even. Expanding the playoffs in baseball does similar things to the september surge in fans coming out.

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05-30-2013, 04:43 AM
  #92
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Had they had true revenue sharing and hard salary caps then you would have more balance.
Baseball already has revenue sharing, most small-market owners just pocket the money.

Hard salary caps do nothing to promote competitiveness, they just hurt the player.

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05-30-2013, 04:48 AM
  #93
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its also early in the season....numbers will pick up in June after most NHL and NBA teams are out of the playoffs.

the other problem is FOX has pretty much destroyed the weekly game of Saturday baseball.

Before it was a regular Saturday tradition, now its very regionalized and the games are on at inconsistent times---not the same weekly start times.

What also has hurt is not having big national rivalry series on.
The Saturday game is dead. The main reason people cared was that it was baseball on television, back when you might only get half or less of your local team's games on TV. Now every team televises virtually every game. So there's no need.

ESPN Sunday Night Baseball is the game of the week now, and that's not going anywhere.

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05-30-2013, 06:48 AM
  #94
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I read a diatribe in a book by ex-Cardinals manager Whitey Herzog that talked about something that I'm certain is related to a demise in rating for MLB is a lack of accessibility to the game of baseball in many cities in the US. In the 70's and '80 when inner-city kids were playing baseball as a stepping-stone out of their reality (see George Hendrick playing his way out of Watts), baseball was driven by speed, base-stealing, and slick defense that was (to me at least) aesthetically more interesting for kids that already had short-attention spans.

As a kid playing little league baseball in West St. Louis county, it was easy to translate an interest in the Cardinals and all of the strategies, match-ups, etc. that baseball had to offer in the heat of the summer. It gave us hours of scenarios to solve and argue over. Now in the New South (NashVegas), I see more soccer parks than baseball diamonds likely because they are cost-effective. If you think about civic finances, baseball requires a fair amount of undeveloped space, equipment, 18+ people to play, and unlimited time whereas soccer and basketball have less stringent requirements for specialized equipment and fewer people hanging around. So if you translate what kids are playing into what the media offers, the demographics say to start showing more basketball and English Premiere League/MLS.

If MLB wants to remain relevant in the media, they need to invest in bringing baseball back to the inner-city with fields and equipment and get those kids playing basketball to want to play another game they could make a living at too. The same can be said about the NHL needing to invest in a program to bring more rinks into the southern expansion markets. There is almost no ice time at the three facilities here in Nashville for the hockey/skating already in place here. They both could greatly enhance themselves by bringing the tools of the game to the masses.
They already invest in the inner city through RBI. There are quite a few RBI graduates at the MLB level: Coco Crisp, Justin Upton, Jimmy Rollins, etc. They're responsible for a lot of the black talent in the game. A lot of teams also sponsor inner-city youth leagues through their charities.

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05-30-2013, 07:00 AM
  #95
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I'd say your average fan (who couldn't name a player on the Royals or Pirates) is more upset by the fact that the 3 or 4 best teams in baseball perennially stack their roster with free agents that were developed in other organizations.

Probably the single biggest turn-off for me with baseball isn't the speed of the game, but the fact that there are only a small handful of teams with recognizable players. It's to a point that I don't even know who plays on about 25 of the teams anymore. Not being a big fan of the Yankees or Red Sox, that makes the vast majority of MLB games about as engaging as watching two community college teams.
Your average fan doesn't know who Andrew McCutchen is? I suppose I could buy that, but that doesn't do my opinion of average baseball fans any good.

By the way, the Pirates are 33-20 and McCutchen's signed through 2018.

The reason the Royals are horrible has nothing to do with money. They don't develop players, period. They got on the cover of Sports Illustrated a couple years ago for having "the best farm system ever" and pretty much all of those guys have failed to deliver what was expected of them. The most promising hitter, Wil Myers, got traded to Tampa Bay for James Shields, who is a nice #2 starter.

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05-30-2013, 07:06 AM
  #96
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Baseball already has revenue sharing, most small-market owners just pocket the money.

Hard salary caps do nothing to promote competitiveness, they just hurt the player.
I agree. Phoenix will be gone by next year, 10th year of the NHL cap.

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05-30-2013, 08:34 AM
  #97
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There is almost no ice time at the three facilities here in Nashville for the hockey/skating already in place here.
More ice time != more folks getting into hockey. We have had the same problem in multiple spots in Ontario for as long as I can remember, and almost every town and village of note has an arena (hell for some it's the biggest building in the town) and you'll have folks having to play games at 11pm and 5am because thats' the only times available. Yet hockey is still insanely popular even with that, cost, etc...

As for time, perhaps enforcing rules already on the books would be a start?

Quote:
8.04
When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call “Ball.” The 12-second timing starts when the pitcher is in possession of the ball and the batter is in the box, alert to the pitcher. The timing stops when the pitcher releases the ball.
The intent of this rule is to avoid unnecessary delays. The umpire shall insist that the catcher return the ball promptly to the pitcher, and that the pitcher take his position on the rubber promptly. Obvious delay by the pitcher should instantly be penalized by the umpire.
Then again I don't really see the huge need for the game being rush rush rush. Myself I watch sports to take a break from the rat race, not to keep running on the treadmill.

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05-30-2013, 09:41 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I throw this out as a Devil's Advocate comment/thought, and would like feedback.


IF MLB is healthy, and IF there are no worries about , what is the reasoning then for interleague play, addition of playoff and wildcard teams (and last year adding a 2nd Wild Card team to each league)?

I mean IF indeed the sport is truly healthy, and there are no worries, why put in the "gimmicks" as some purists would say?

The answers I've read in columns keep coming back to the "everyone wants to feel their team has a chance"/"makes it more exciting". Why would the MLB worry about making it "more exciting" if they were content with the health of the league? The fans should be quite happy with the current setup should they not ("current" being back before this stuff was introduced)

Again, asking ONLY as Devil's Advocate, and looking for feedback.
And my response would be, you can improve something without it having to be broken first. Not to mention, interleague play and the wildcard have been around already for 15+ years, so it's not like they're some kind of knee-jerk reaction to recent internet age attendance/ratings figures. What Selig did with those was bring baseball into the 21st century by making it more like the other 3 major sports.

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05-30-2013, 10:35 AM
  #99
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They already invest in the inner city through RBI. There are quite a few RBI graduates at the MLB level: Coco Crisp, Justin Upton, Jimmy Rollins, etc. They're responsible for a lot of the black talent in the game. A lot of teams also sponsor inner-city youth leagues through their charities.
I agree with that to an extent, but RBI's impact is relatively minimal in comparison to what it could be. I have a childhood friend that has worked as a city manager in a few municipalities in St. Louis County and talked about how difficult it was just to get RBI or Cardinals charities to pay attention to that and build an inner-city field.

The lack of black athletes in baseball is kind of alarming considering all of the reverence to Jackie Robinson MLB plays up and should be focused on getting those kids to see Jackie as a role-model to follow instead of some dude in a history book.

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05-30-2013, 10:47 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I throw this out as a Devil's Advocate comment/thought, and would like feedback.


IF MLB is healthy, and IF there are no worries about , what is the reasoning then for interleague play, addition of playoff and wildcard teams (and last year adding a 2nd Wild Card team to each league)?

I mean IF indeed the sport is truly healthy, and there are no worries, why put in the "gimmicks" as some purists would say?

The answers I've read in columns keep coming back to the "everyone wants to feel their team has a chance"/"makes it more exciting". Why would the MLB worry about making it "more exciting" if they were content with the health of the league? The fans should be quite happy with the current setup should they not ("current" being back before this stuff was introduced)

Again, asking ONLY as Devil's Advocate, and looking for feedback.
Baseball has a fairly conservative culture relative to other sports but even it is not completely inflexible to trying new things to make the sport more appealling without diluting its soul. North American sports are pretty competitive like that.

I don't really care about interleague play but some people like the variety more so MLB wants to try and keep them happy. I prefer to play the same teams more, cuz familiarity means more depth to the competition, and also breeds contempt of each other which is exciting too.

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