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Mtl - Colorado 1st overall

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Old
05-30-2013, 04:12 PM
  #101
Habsawce
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Calgary hasn't had a legitimate #1C in what, 20 years? I would make that trade if I were Calgary but MTL feels like they have their #1C going forward in Chuck, so it makes a little less sense for them to make the proposed trade as it opens more holes than it fills.

Of course MTL fans would love to have MacKinnon, but it's not do or die so being reasonable and realistic seems like a logical choice to me. Not delusional at all.

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Old
05-30-2013, 04:22 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Pierce Hawthorne View Post
I didn't even read most of your post because it was clear from the first paragraph that, as the guy above said you are likely quite delusional.


But I would love to here your explanation on all the amazing moves Bergevin made, or the awesome things he did to be considered a nominee for GM of the year.

He basically made 1 trade the entire year. Ryder for Cole. Other then that he did nothing.

He was nominated for GM of the year because the Habs, severely overachieved in a shortened season stemmed from a hot start, and managed to make playoffs 1 year after finishing in the basement.

Bergevin did nothing. Absolutely nothing that warrants him being even nominated for GM of the year.

The Habs got hot to start the season, and because of a shortened season managed to ride the Hot start into the playoffs, where they were soundly beat by the 7th seeded team.



But go ahead, lets here why Bergevin deserves all the credit. This explanation should be fun to read.
I never said he deserves "ALL" the credit. However, here is an explanation for why he deserves a lot of credit and why he probably received a nomination for GM of the year:

Bergevin brought in Therrien.

Bergevin actually brought in an entirely new coaching staff, a new attitude, and changed the atmosphere of the entire upper levels of team management. That has a trickle down effect.

He was also an important factor in us using the 3rd overall to get Galchenyuk rather than trading the pick away.

He got rid of a potential club house cancer in Cole for a better player AND a 3rd round pick in a deep draft.

He did not make any panic moves to change the entire team simply because it had a bad season the previous year, he waited to see what he had. He gave the team time to work together, recognizing that the previous year was the anomaly over the last 6 seasons, not the norm or the trend for the team he inherited.

He got rid of Gomez in a proper, respectful fashion.

He signed Galchenyuk and Gallagher to entry level contracts.

He brought an open door policy for the press to the team.

Bergevin did a lot of things that were good, and didn't do a number of things he could have done that would have been bad. There are multiple reasons for why he was nominated for the GM of the year award.

Sometimes, the best moves you make are the ones you don't make.

He did a lot of the things we saw, and there were a number of things he did with the team that the players will tell you about that made them happier with the direction this team is now going in.

He obviously did a lot more than you apparently had a clue about. Keep in mind, I never said he deserved all of the credit. I have laid a ton of credit at the doorstep of Markov, Gionta, Gallagher, Eller, Pacioretty, Subban, etc... I have given credit to Therrien and the coaches. There are a lot of reasons why our team did as well as it did this season. It starts at the top, though. You saw what happened when management was garbage last year. You saw what happens with new management. Yes, injuries and other factors come into play, but it starts at the top. That is why there ARE awards for Gms and Coaches as well as players.

By the way, he was not perfect. He could, and probably should, have gone out and gotten us the 2 key pieces we needed to make a deep Cup run. Instead, he decided to be patient, keep our assets, and see what the team would do in the playoffs as they were constructed. It is not a move I agreed with, but it is one I respect as he was still evaluating his team and wanted to see what he truly had to find out what he truly needs. He was not perfect, but damn he was good.

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05-30-2013, 04:22 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Calgary hasn't had a legitimate #1C in what, 20 years? I would make that trade if I were Calgary but MTL feels like they have their #1C going forward in Chuck, so it makes a little less sense for them to make the proposed trade as it opens more holes than it fills.

Of course MTL fans would love to have MacKinnon, but it's not do or die so being reasonable and realistic seems like a logical choice to me. Not delusional at all.
And Eller who, who broke out this season.

That's two centers with size and a potential no. 1 franchise center. McKinnon isn't needed here like he is in Calgary and tbh I would do that trade all day if I was Calgary.


Last edited by poetryinmotion: 05-30-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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05-30-2013, 04:24 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
Cool. Ballsy GM (if he had a choice) to be letting the coach decide on player matters. I didn't see the entire presser, so I missed it.
No worries. Happy to be helpful. I do try to be as well informed as I can be, but could have been wrong as well. Heck, we all make mistakes, I did in this thread for which I had to apologize...lol. I think Roy wanting so much extra influence is why Roy was not hired for the Montrel job.

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05-30-2013, 04:32 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
And Eller who, who broke out this season.

That's two centers with size and a potential no. 1 franchise center. McKinnon isn't needed here like he is in Calgary and tbh I would do that trade all day if I was Calgary.
If I were Roy, I would just pick MacKinnon at #1 and trade Duschene to Calgary for Giordano + #6

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05-30-2013, 04:35 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
If I were Roy, I would just pick MacKinnon at #1 and trade Duschene to Calgary for Giordano + #6
There's just no way he doesn't start his Colorado Avalanche coaching 'legacy' without him, he had Grigorenko on the Remparts and he will want an other prodigy with his NHL club .

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05-30-2013, 04:37 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
If I were Roy, I would just pick MacKinnon at #1 and trade Duschene to Calgary for Giordano + #6

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05-30-2013, 04:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by BON IVER View Post
Oh no, I spelled it incorrectly. Good thing I'm not a contract lawyer

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05-30-2013, 04:41 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Oh no, I spelled it incorrectly. Good thing I'm not a contract lawyer
The trade proposal is also ridiculous.

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05-30-2013, 06:52 PM
  #110
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People have been complaining how the Avs have a horrible defensive squad all year, why wouldn't they draft Jones? Why would they trade their pick?

I just don't get it...

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05-30-2013, 06:56 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
You wouldn't trade your 6th, Baertschi ++ for the 1st seems to be what you are saying. I wouldn't trade Pacioretty, Beaulieu, and our 2nd is what I am saying (never mind the other offer that ADDED more assets to those 3). The difference is that you said it in one sentence and I have gone at some length as to why we would not do it from a Habs perspective. I never once said that Colorado would do the deal, and I never made that offer. I simply tried to explain that it was not "trash" being offered. Please read what I write before trying to simply insult me.

So, would you be delusional to want to keep your 6th, Baertschi ++ rather than trade it away for the 1st overall...or realistic??
you wouldn't trade Paccioretty, Beaulieu and a 2nd for Mackinnon ?

what about Ribeiro, Ryder, Sourray, when they were at their prime and a first for Malkin when he got drafted ? (it was a true rumor, but the pens said no)

it look very similar...

I mean if you can get a player of that caliber YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE CHANCE !!!

Paccioretty, Beaulieu and that 2nd will not come close to what Mackinnon should become, it is a gamble but for a great reward.

Yea maybe it create a hole but a guy like Mackinnon (if he reach his potential and he should reach it) is a lot more harder to find than a good foward with size IMO

Mackinnon is the kind of player that you build your team around, Paccioretty is just a jersey on the top6.

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05-30-2013, 07:12 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by BON IVER View Post
The trade proposal is also ridiculous.
Maybe Giordano is better than you think and with MacKinnon makes Matt expendable. You aren't going to get nearly as much for Statsny and RoR can't be traded till next year.

Perhaps it's not enough and Calgary could add something like another 1st (BOS) but I think they are the team that needs MacKinnon the most of any team in the league.

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05-30-2013, 07:14 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Chacal667 View Post
you wouldn't trade Paccioretty, Beaulieu and a 2nd for Mackinnon ?

what about Ribeiro, Ryder, Sourray, when they were at their prime and a first for Malkin when he got drafted ? (it was a true rumor, but the pens said no)

it look very similar...

I mean if you can get a player of that caliber YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE CHANCE !!!

Paccioretty, Beaulieu and that 2nd will not come close to what Mackinnon should become, it is a gamble but for a great reward.

Yea maybe it create a hole but a guy like Mackinnon (if he reach his potential and he should reach it) is a lot more harder to find than a good foward with size IMO

Mackinnon is the kind of player that you build your team around, Paccioretty is just a jersey on the top6.
I'd do Pacioretty + Beaulieu + 1st round for 1st overall and draft MacKinnon for sure. But it is not do or die for the franchise with Eller and Galchenyuk down the middle.

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05-30-2013, 07:26 PM
  #114
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Neither of those are worth it for either team.

The second trade is approaching well, value wise, but it still doesn't make sense.

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05-30-2013, 07:58 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post

First, Pacioretty has "onoy" scored over 30 goals once in his career, but has also "only" played one full season in the NHL. His 1st two tries in the NHL he played partial seasons while learning the game because power forwards are slower to develop in the NHL (of course, a bright guy like you knew that, right?). He played 12 minutes per night in 2008-2010 seasons, learning to play as a power forward and showed steady progression. In 2010-2011 he started to break out before Chara broke his neck. He was on pace for over 50 points in his first full season, but that got chopped to 37 games. The next season, his first full NHL season, he continued to develop even after having just recovered from a near life ending injury, to score 33 goals and get 65 points. The season right after that he was on pace for a 72 point season, producing at a 0.88 ppg clip in order to get 39 points in 44 games. So, you see, there is CONTEXT to your "story" about Pacioretty "ONLY" being a 1 season 30+ goal scorer. I wouldn't expect you to understand that, based on the dribble you have written.
The thing is that Pacioretty has still only produced 30 goals once. I'm guilty of making the same assumptions, that a player's ppg will stay consistent over 82 games but we can't make that assumption. Who's to say that he doesn't complete go cold over games 49-60 and only picks up 2 points, he could also score 15 points in those games and boost that ppg. Pacioretty is at this point a #1W but he was put into the best possible situation to get points. He had a 63.6% offensive zone start & he faced the easier match ups. He doesn't PK, though from his stats it seems he is average-above average defensively at 5v5. With everything in mind I'd say Pacioretty has comparable value to Ladd.

Quote:
Nice to see Beaulieu is a big bust according to you. The kid has simply done everything asked of him, and has shown that he can do well at all non-NHL levels of hockey. The only reason he MIGHT not get into the line-up next season is because of the talent and depth we have in regards to the position he plays. Beaulieu is a PMD, like Subban, Markov, Diaz, and Weber. We do not need to bring up a 5th PMD to play when we have 3 on the actual NHL squad who could be 1st or 2nd line players on most NHL teams (I mean Markov, Subban and Diaz in case you are having trouble following the logic). It would be better for Beaulieu's development to play in the minors and get ice time to develop, rather than do to him what has been done to Weber. Also, Therrien is not known for giving 1st year players tons of minutes, so we should not waste Beaulieu's time sitting in the box watching. If we make a trade involving one of our other PMD (such as Diaz). then Beaulieu will be playing for us next season.
I'm still not convinced. When I saw Beaulieu play against the Caps you could tell he was talented offensively but he was ineffective defensively. He was losing his man & getting pushed around a bit, he also seemed to be making some rookie mistakes. Now obviously he can improve but he's still quite raw defensively and his defensive game will have to improve if he wants to become an NHL regular. (I didn't see any of the games in which he played with the Habs so maybe it's improved since I've seen it last). If he doesn't improve his defensive he's going to be at best a #4/5 PP QB, a MAB with defence.

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The 2nd is a 2nd in a deep draft. It is not pivotal to the trade.
Agreed, it's why it'd be a 1st in the deal instead.

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So, what you try and dismiss as "trash" is, once again, shown to be anything but.
True it's not "trash" but it's also not blue chip, grade "A" pieces either. Outside of Patches, who still has to prove he can score in the playoffs when he does have to play the top defensive guys, you didn't offer anything that can't be found in almost any 1st round draft.

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Yes, everyone likes MacKinnon. I like MacKinnon. That does not mean we give up the assets necessary to get him. It also does not mean we give up pieces we can not replace to get him. We already lack size on the wings, do you really think trading our only young and consistently EVERY SINGLE YEAR IMPROVING power forward helps us improve one of our two our biggest areas of weakness? If this were last season, and we do not have Galchenyuk, maybe, MAYBE we consider it because MacKinnon would represent a true #1 organizational need. Right now, MacKinnon has done nothing to make me think he is going to be better than Galchenyuk. As such, keep Pacioretty and Beaulieu, two players who fit the development of this team going forward.
Mackinnon has a much better tool box then Galchenyuk. He's got a better shot & skating ability, he's already an Elite skater by NHL standards, that alone lowers the "bust factor". I can understand why you don't want to trade those pieces but saying Pacioretty+Beaulieu>Mackinnon makes you look like a homer. A potential elite #1C with a very low bust factor is worth at least those pieces, more then likely more. And you might consider it if you didn't have Gally, I think your GM would be all over it. The only position you'd be lacking is down the middle, look at all of the past stanley cup champions all of them had a #1 D, a #1 G, or one playing extremely well & at least 1 #1C, some had 2.

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I would keep Pacioretty over RNH. I think RNH has a lot of talent, but I worry about his injury issues. He just isn't big enough and I think he will get worn down over time.
Fair enough though I'm sure people will argue that it's not enough of a reason but it is a valid concern.
Quote:
I would also keep Pacioretty over Yakupov. Gallagher will be our Yakupov. They will be close enough in production that there is no need to give up Pacioretty for the possible 10 point difference that might open up between them over the years.
Either you're severely underrating Yakupov or you're severely overrating Gallagher. Gallagher does not have the same potential as Yakupov. Gallagher will likely settle into be a career 50-65 point complimentary winger, around 25 goals & 35 assists. Anything less then 75+ points for Yakupov is a disappointment, Yakupov has 40+ Goal & 40+ assist potential, there's a reason why he was the number 1 pick even though he only has inches on Gallagher. Also when Gallagher is a year older then Yakupov, let's see what Yakupov does next year so we can really compare there years.

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You just do not seem to understand what "organizational needs" means. We have a number of players who are equal to, or close enough to being equal to, players like MacKinnon, Jones, and Drouin that we should not give up the only young power forward we have in our system because we need what he brings to our team. Look at the Oilers. They would be willing to trade one of their top 4 to get the right kind of power forward because they seriously need that kind of player in their system. We do not want to become the next Oilers, we want to continue to add the right pieces, not necessarily the most glamourous pieces that are shiny and new at the cost of those right pieces.
So Subban=Jones, MacKinnon=Gally, who = Drouin? MacKinnon in 2-3 years would do a lot more for your team then anyone else who is currently on it, except maybe Subban/Price. MacKinnon may not be built like it but he plays a Hall style power forward game, obviously that comes with the injury risk but many think Mac has the higher hockey IQ so he shouldn't be as much of an injury risk.

Really if everyone meets there potential it goes like this,

Mac>Jones>Subban>Gally>Drouin>Patches>>>Beaulieu>G allagher


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
So, would you be delusional to want to keep your 6th, Baertschi ++ rather than trade it away for the 1st overall...or realistic??
No, I think what he's trying to say is that at the 6th overall pick the Flames will likely still get 1 of Monahan, potential elite #2C or Lindholm, next Backstrom possibly, & do add Baertschi ++ doesn't make sense. The difference between those pieces doesn't = the difference between Mac plus all the pieces.

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05-30-2013, 08:40 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
The thing is that Pacioretty has still only produced 30 goals once. I'm guilty of making the same assumptions, that a player's ppg will stay consistent over 82 games but we can't make that assumption. Who's to say that he doesn't complete go cold over games 49-60 and only picks up 2 points, he could also score 15 points in those games and boost that ppg. Pacioretty is at this point a #1W but he was put into the best possible situation to get points. He had a 63.6% offensive zone start & he faced the easier match ups. He doesn't PK, though from his stats it seems he is average-above average defensively at 5v5. With everything in mind I'd say Pacioretty has comparable value to Ladd.



I'm still not convinced. When I saw Beaulieu play against the Caps you could tell he was talented offensively but he was ineffective defensively. He was losing his man & getting pushed around a bit, he also seemed to be making some rookie mistakes. Now obviously he can improve but he's still quite raw defensively and his defensive game will have to improve if he wants to become an NHL regular. (I didn't see any of the games in which he played with the Habs so maybe it's improved since I've seen it last). If he doesn't improve his defensive he's going to be at best a #4/5 PP QB, a MAB with defence.



Agreed, it's why it'd be a 1st in the deal instead.



True it's not "trash" but it's also not blue chip, grade "A" pieces either. Outside of Patches, who still has to prove he can score in the playoffs when he does have to play the top defensive guys, you didn't offer anything that can't be found in almost any 1st round draft.



Mackinnon has a much better tool box then Galchenyuk. He's got a better shot & skating ability, he's already an Elite skater by NHL standards, that alone lowers the "bust factor". I can understand why you don't want to trade those pieces but saying Pacioretty+Beaulieu>Mackinnon makes you look like a homer. A potential elite #1C with a very low bust factor is worth at least those pieces, more then likely more. And you might consider it if you didn't have Gally, I think your GM would be all over it. The only position you'd be lacking is down the middle, look at all of the past stanley cup champions all of them had a #1 D, a #1 G, or one playing extremely well & at least 1 #1C, some had 2.



Fair enough though I'm sure people will argue that it's not enough of a reason but it is a valid concern.


Either you're severely underrating Yakupov or you're severely overrating Gallagher. Gallagher does not have the same potential as Yakupov. Gallagher will likely settle into be a career 50-65 point complimentary winger, around 25 goals & 35 assists. Anything less then 75+ points for Yakupov is a disappointment, Yakupov has 40+ Goal & 40+ assist potential, there's a reason why he was the number 1 pick even though he only has inches on Gallagher. Also when Gallagher is a year older then Yakupov, let's see what Yakupov does next year so we can really compare there years.



So Subban=Jones, MacKinnon=Gally, who = Drouin? MacKinnon in 2-3 years would do a lot more for your team then anyone else who is currently on it, except maybe Subban/Price. MacKinnon may not be built like it but he plays a Hall style power forward game, obviously that comes with the injury risk but many think Mac has the higher hockey IQ so he shouldn't be as much of an injury risk.

Really if everyone meets there potential it goes like this,

Mac>Jones>Subban>Gally>Drouin>Patches>>>Beaulieu>G allagher




No, I think what he's trying to say is that at the 6th overall pick the Flames will likely still get 1 of Monahan, potential elite #2C or Lindholm, next Backstrom possibly, & do add Baertschi ++ doesn't make sense. The difference between those pieces doesn't = the difference between Mac plus all the pieces.
Pacioretty isnt a ppg player, but he is an excellent winger.

Beaulieu is only in his 1st pro season, of course he is lacking defensively. Give him a little time he should be an excellent 2nd pair dman.

I have watched Mnackinnon closely here in halifax. He WILL be a top end talent. But I cant see any scenario where trading for him would not completely deplete the habs of anything that wont set the team back 5yrs.

I dont think trading up for MTL is a good idea. This draft has solid prospects that fill needs and with the number oif higher end picks can actually put some real depth into the prospect puddle we have.


Colorado has a tough choice but no way can Mtl move up from 25 to 1st....why would Colorado do that? Subban? And what else?

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05-30-2013, 08:43 PM
  #117
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In no way is the first deal in the OP in any way close to the value of the second one. Completely different values. IMHO Colorado says hell no to the first one and MTL has a similar reply to the second one.

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05-30-2013, 08:52 PM
  #118
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In no way is the first deal in the OP in any way close to the value of the second one. Completely different values. IMHO Colorado says hell no to the first one and MTL has a similar reply to the second one.
Agreed.

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05-30-2013, 08:56 PM
  #119
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[QUOTE=DatsyukToZetterberg;66812650Mac>Jones>Subban >Gally>Drouin>Patches>>>Beaulieu>Gallagher[/QUOTE]

Gallagher was our best forward the last season better than paccioretty, for a player of 5 foot 9 and 178 pounds who only has 21 years old, with his style of plays, he worth certainly more than what you think.

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05-30-2013, 08:57 PM
  #120
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Pacioretty isnt a ppg player, but he is an excellent winger.
I agree. I also think over the next 4-5 years he could be very close to a ppg winger, if he can refine his game that little bit more so that when the defences start to key in on him he still produces he'll become even better.

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Beaulieu is only in his 1st pro season, of course he is lacking defensively. Give him a little time he should be an excellent 2nd pair dman.
I know, and like I said he should improve defensively, but it was more just to show that Beaulieu isn't a sure thing yet.

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I have watched Mnackinnon closely here in halifax. He WILL be a top end talent. But I cant see any scenario where trading for him would not completely deplete the habs of anything that wont set the team back 5yrs.
I really think it would cost Gally+2013 1st, maybe more. That would leave a huge hole on your team but I think the difference between Gally for Mack could be worth it.

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I dont think trading up for MTL is a good idea. This draft has solid prospects that fill needs and with the number oif higher end picks can actually put some real depth into the prospect puddle we have.
That's a good problem to have though. You guys have a top scouting staff and you should be able to get some great value picks. I'm in agreement with you guys btw, it wouldn't make sense to give up the depth required to trade for the pick. I was just arguing the value it would take.

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Colorado has a tough choice but no way can Mtl move up from 25 to 1st....why would Colorado do that? Subban? And what else?
I think if they wanted to compete right away they would consider moving it for Subban, it would also mean that you guys hold Jones in a very high regard. It should be a very fun month ahead.

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05-30-2013, 09:00 PM
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Gallagher was our best forward the last season better than paccioretty, for a player of 5 foot 9 and 178 pounds who only has 21 years old, with his style of plays, he worth certainly more than what you think.
I'm not exactly the highest on Gallagher so it may be a slight on my part. I think his max potential is that of complimentary winger while Beaulieu may be able to be a sort of Brian Campbell lite. Imo a #2/3 dman like that would be worth more then a 25-35 winger.

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05-30-2013, 09:05 PM
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People have been complaining how the Avs have a horrible defensive squad all year, why wouldn't they draft Jones? Why would they trade their pick?

I just don't get it...
We probably wont.

I think its just the middle of summer and people need something to talk about.

We will take Jones or Mack and more than likely not trade the pick...unless we can convince Florida to give us something or we will take Mack.

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05-30-2013, 09:07 PM
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I think if they wanted to compete right away they would consider moving it for Subban, it would also mean that you guys hold Jones in a very high regard. It should be a very fun month ahead.
Don't hold your breath on that. Jones might never be better than Subban also.

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05-30-2013, 09:11 PM
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Galchenyuk has an all world wrist shot, no way MacKinnon has a better shot at this point in his career.

Also, I don't see how his skating is better either.

If there's anything that separates the two it's MacKinnon's hockey IQ is through the roof. Anyone acting like MacKinnon will be better than Chuck for sure if out to lunch.

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05-30-2013, 09:27 PM
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I'm not exactly the highest on Gallagher so it may be a slight on my part. I think his max potential is that of complimentary winger while Beaulieu may be able to be a sort of Brian Campbell lite. Imo a #2/3 dman like that would be worth more then a 25-35 winger.
for two players of the same age, gallagher have shown much more than Beaulieu IMO

( I'm not a fan of Beaulieu, he's a mess in defense and he showed nothing offensively the last season, his passes were bad, maybe due to a lack of confidence, he was so confident with the Sea Dogs when they won everything but I think he regressed in the AHL probably because he lost all the confidence that he had by trying to play good defensively. )

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