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Why has Russia so low hockey population ?

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Old
06-01-2013, 12:02 AM
  #26
Mr Kanadensisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Identical ratios of U20 players to indoor rinks? Umm...no.

Even if we assume # of indoor rinks are a factor and IIHF numbers apply equally to everybody, we still have HUGE discrepancies.

Registered players per indoor rink
CZE 230
CAN 183
RUS 177
SWE 156
USA 153
FIN 143
SVK 138


If we multiply these figures by hundreds to represent an equal representation of # of players relevant to eachother, we get very sizable discrepancies and in no way are these figures rational nor uniform.


Sorry, even by your own flawed criteria, it's quite obvious that the definition of registered player does not apply equally across the board....not all all.
I remember reading a while back that the Czechs had underreported their number of rinks. If you take that away the numbers are very consistent, especially between Canada and Russia as I had mentioned. Sure there is a variance of a few percentage either way, but that is expected. It's not like the Russian numbers are off in magnitudes of 200 or 300 percent as some here have suggested. I'm glad to hear Russia is investing in their infrastructure, that's the best way for them to grow the game.

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06-04-2013, 11:20 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I remember reading a while back that the Czechs had underreported their number of rinks. If you take that away the numbers are very consistent, especially between Canada and Russia as I had mentioned. Sure there is a variance of a few percentage either way, but that is expected. It's not like the Russian numbers are off in magnitudes of 200 or 300 percent as some here have suggested. I'm glad to hear Russia is investing in their infrastructure, that's the best way for them to grow the game.
Did you just not criticize Jussi for backing up statements with "I read somewhere/someone said"? Now you do the same? You can't have it both ways.
Regardless, if number of rinks can be underreported, surely number of players can also be.

Obviously numbers aren't off by 200 or 300%, that's ridiculous.....but common sense tells us they are off by more than just a few percentage points.

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06-05-2013, 12:46 AM
  #28
Mr Kanadensisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Did you just not criticize Jussi for backing up statements with "I read somewhere/someone said"? Now you do the same? You can't have it both ways.
Regardless, if number of rinks can be underreported, surely number of players can also be.

Obviously numbers aren't off by 200 or 300%, that's ridiculous.....but common sense tells us they are off by more than just a few percentage points.
this is the reference the guy gave
http://www.hockeyarenas.net/?ctID=sk...arOrder=arName

I agree that no numbers like these are perfect. I don't agree that they are likely off by a large overall percentage. Given your history I'm sure you will try to spin it that the numbers for Russia are too low and Canada's are too high.


Last edited by stv11: 06-05-2013 at 03:42 AM. Reason: removed flame
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06-05-2013, 01:17 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
this is the reference the guy gave
http://www.hockeyarenas.net/?ctID=sk...arOrder=arName

I agree that no numbers like these are perfect. I don't agree that they are likely off by a large overall percentage. Given your history I'm sure you will try to spin it that the numbers for Russia are too low and Canada's are too high.

What kind of reference is that? It also lists:
-147 rinks for Russia, IIHF lists 346.
-188 for Finland, IIHF lists 246
-81 for Slovakia, IIHF lists 47
-302 for Switzerland, IIHF lists 158

...but since you attest to this link (you used it to support your assertion about CZE rinks), you must now be of the opinion that IIHF numbers can, in fact, be off by a significant amount.


Like I said, without a uniform standard of of player/rink reporting, common sense tells us IIHF numbers are all out of whack.


Last edited by stv11: 06-05-2013 at 03:43 AM. Reason: edited quote
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06-05-2013, 01:41 AM
  #30
Mr Kanadensisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
What kind of reference is that? It also lists:
-147 rinks for Russia, IIHF lists 346.
-188 for Finland, IIHF lists 246
-81 for Slovakia, IIHF lists 47
-302 for Switzerland, IIHF lists 158

...but since you attest to this link (you used it to support your assertion about CZE rinks), you must now be of the opinion that IIHF numbers can, in fact, be off by a significant amount.


Like I said, without a uniform standard of of player/rink reporting, common sense tells us IIHF numbers are all out of whack.
Nice try. From the IIHF survey the only number that looked off was the Czech U20 player to rink ratio, so I provided a source another poster linked to. I certainly never said that I took this database to be more accurate than the IIHF survey. The number of rinks, the number of U20 players and the number of top 100 NHL scorers are three completely different data sets, yet they all correlate, as anyone with common sense would expect them to.

If you think you have some evidence that would prove the IIHF survey to be significantly errored then please share.


Last edited by stv11: 06-05-2013 at 03:43 AM. Reason: removed flame
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06-05-2013, 03:36 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
What kind of reference is that? It also lists:
-147 rinks for Russia, IIHF lists 346.
-188 for Finland, IIHF lists 246
-81 for Slovakia, IIHF lists 47
-302 for Switzerland, IIHF lists 158

...but since you attest to this link (you used it to support your assertion about CZE rinks), you must now be of the opinion that IIHF numbers can, in fact, be off by a significant amount.


Like I said, without a uniform standard of of player/rink reporting, common sense tells us IIHF numbers are all out of whack.
hockeyarenas.net doesn't list current rinks only, any place where hockey has ever been played can be listed, including places like this: http://www.hockeyarenas.net/index.ph...ze=6&arID=1787 . Arenas that have been upgraded have separate entries: http://www.hockeyarenas.net/index.ph...ize=6&arID=482 and http://www.hockeyarenas.net/index.ph...&size=2&arID=2 . They also list planned project.

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06-05-2013, 08:35 AM
  #32
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There are more or less all Historical Ice Rinks from Europe online:

Old Dynamo Moskow RInk:

http://www.hockeyarenas.net/index.ph...city&arID=1554

CSKA Sofia

http://www.hockeyarenas.net/index.ph...city&arID=1212

EV Füssen

http://www.hockeyarenas.net/index.ph...acity&arID=981

Dynamo Weisswasser

http://www.hockeyarenas.net/index.ph...acity&arID=592

Bern without Roof

http://www.hockeyarenas.net/index.ph...=bern&arID=714

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06-05-2013, 09:16 AM
  #33
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Send a message via AIM to cska78 Send a message via Yahoo to cska78
love the pics for CSKA sofia rink, lol)

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06-05-2013, 11:10 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
You have never shown a shred of evidence to back up this kind of claim. If you look at the total number of indoor arenas you will see they correlate very closely with the number of registered juniors.
But don't you know that Russia has hundreds of secret hockey rinks as well as secret hockey players?

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06-05-2013, 12:23 PM
  #35
Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
But don't you know that Russia has hundreds of secret hockey rinks as well as secret hockey players?
I heard that Putin was the leading scorer in that secret league, won the mvp every year!!

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06-05-2013, 12:41 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I heard that Putin was the leading scorer in that secret league, won the mvp every year!!
Thats because nobody is so good to compete there !!

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06-05-2013, 02:03 PM
  #37
Zine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Nice try. From the IIHF survey the only number that looked off was the Czech U20 player to rink ratio, so I provided a source another poster linked to. I certainly never said that I took this database to be more accurate than the IIHF survey. The number of rinks, the number of U20 players and the number of top 100 NHL scorers are three completely different data sets, yet they all correlate, as anyone with common sense would expect them to.

If you think you have some evidence that would prove the IIHF survey to be significantly errored then please share.

You played the "someone said" card and provided their link, but it countered your point.


Common sense tells us IIHF numbers can be very inaccurate. Just from a quick glance:
-No outdoor rinks in USA? Why aren't rinks being reported?
-3 outdoor rinks in Belarus, but 56 in Kazakhstan?
-CZE has 58k seniors and 34K juniors...RUS has 2K seniors and 61K juniors? Huh?
-2 outdoor rinks exist in Namibia? Wait what?
- etc, etc, etc,


Bottom line - You are picking/choosing stats to support an agenda and calling it gospel.....yet dismissing or omitting others when they don't (# of CZE indoor rinks, or the 2,000 outdoor rinks in Russia conveniently being left out of your equations).


Without a uniform standard for reporting, IIHF figures are extremely rough estimates containing inaccuracies. It's laughable to deduce a meaningful conclusion beyond what's already common sense in the hockey world.
Does Canada have the most players? Without a doubt, but common sense also tells us their number is inflated relative to everybody else......everybody and their mother is a registered player there.


Last edited by Zine: 06-05-2013 at 03:02 PM.
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06-06-2013, 12:05 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Just don't take that site as gospel. Just for the Kelowna area alone, they're missing at least 4 arenas

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06-06-2013, 12:53 AM
  #39
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If you told them witch Arenas are missing, they will upload...

http://hockeyarenas.net/rss.php?lang=en

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06-06-2013, 05:06 AM
  #40
Mr Kanadensisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You played the "someone said" card and provided their link, but it countered your point.


Common sense tells us IIHF numbers can be very inaccurate. Just from a quick glance:
-No outdoor rinks in USA? Why aren't rinks being reported?
-3 outdoor rinks in Belarus, but 56 in Kazakhstan?
-CZE has 58k seniors and 34K juniors...RUS has 2K seniors and 61K juniors? Huh?
-2 outdoor rinks exist in Namibia? Wait what?
- etc, etc, etc,


Bottom line - You are picking/choosing stats to support an agenda and calling it gospel.....yet dismissing or omitting others when they don't (# of CZE indoor rinks, or the 2,000 outdoor rinks in Russia conveniently being left out of your equations).


Without a uniform standard for reporting, IIHF figures are extremely rough estimates containing inaccuracies. It's laughable to deduce a meaningful conclusion beyond what's already common sense in the hockey world.
Does Canada have the most players? Without a doubt, but common sense also tells us their number is inflated relative to everybody else......everybody and their mother is a registered player there.
The number of outdoor rinks and registered adults are likely off significantly which is why I am using indoor rinks and registered U20 players. As we all know here every time an issue like this comes up your m.o. is to undermine Canada and overstate Russia's accomplishments so it is of no surprise that you are claiming with no evidence that Canada's numbers are inflated. Without any sort of facts or evidence under your belt I'm not sure what else there really is to discuss.

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06-06-2013, 06:07 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
If you think you have some evidence that would prove the IIHF survey to be significantly errored then please share.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
The number of outdoor rinks and registered adults are likely off significantly

Observe your posts I quoted.
You DO realize how much you're contradicting yourself, right?

The problem: You only use select and arbitrary stats....you then deem everything else as 'inaccurate' even though all stats originate from the same source.


Common sense and general hockey consensus tells us the term 'registered player' is applied more liberally in North America. This isn't rocket science. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but arbitrarily picking and choosing evidence to say otherwise isn't helping your assertion, especially when it's so transparent.


Last edited by Zine: 06-06-2013 at 06:38 AM.
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06-06-2013, 08:02 AM
  #42
Mr Kanadensisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Observe your posts I quoted.
You DO realize how much you're contradicting yourself, right?

The problem: You only use select and arbitrary stats....you then deem everything else as 'inaccurate' even though all stats originate from the same source.


Common sense and general hockey consensus tells us the term 'registered player' is applied more liberally in North America. This isn't rocket science. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but arbitrarily picking and choosing evidence to say otherwise isn't helping your assertion, especially when it's so transparent.
We have discussed this enough times on these boards to know that I am speaking in the context of the U20 and indoor rinks fields, I'm sure there are plenty of old threads I can pull up if need be. I didn't arbitrarily pick up anything, rather looked for the most wide ranging, accurate set of data available. Your "common sense" means nothing to me because you have shown time and time again that you are incapable of being objective when it comes to either Canada, the USSR or Russia and I can pull up lots of threads as evidence to that too if you like.

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06-06-2013, 08:13 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Does Canada have the most players? Without a doubt, but common sense also tells us their number is inflated relative to everybody else......everybody and their mother is a registered player there.
The same applies to Finland and there's clear evidence of that: https://finhockey-fi.directo.fi/@Bin...+2012-2013.pdf

I don't see how Mr Kanadensisk sees Zine as trying to underplay Russia's figures or overstate their accomplishments, I think he's admitted already that they're not directly comparable to e.g. Canada and Finland due to the different methods of registering players.

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06-06-2013, 12:40 PM
  #44
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If I was a Canadian hockey fan like Mr. Kanadensisk, I would be cautious about touting the huge imbalance between registered players and available arenas in Canada and in other countries like Finland, Sweden, Russia, etc., because it can have the effect of inadvertently indicting Canadian hockey systems. On ice in international competition, Canada has been unable to separate itself competitively from those countries, and that inevitably leads to questioning why, with 20 or 30 times as many players and arenas than the competition, Canada fails to win medals in some tournaments. Theoretically, Canada should go undefeated in all of these tournaments, so it could lead one to conclude that Canadian youth developments aren't building the competitive imbalance that they should.

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06-06-2013, 03:27 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
The same applies to Finland and there's clear evidence of that: https://finhockey-fi.directo.fi/@Bin...+2012-2013.pdf

I don't see how Mr Kanadensisk sees Zine as trying to underplay Russia's figures or overstate their accomplishments, I think he's admitted already that they're not directly comparable to e.g. Canada and Finland due to the different methods of registering players.
Maybe I'm missing something in the translation, but what has this got to do with U20 player registration?

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06-06-2013, 06:27 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
We have discussed this enough times on these boards to know that I am speaking in the context of the U20 and indoor rinks fields, I'm sure there are plenty of old threads I can pull up if need be. I didn't arbitrarily pick up anything, rather looked for the most wide ranging, accurate set of data available. Your "common sense" means nothing to me because you have shown time and time again that you are incapable of being objective when it comes to either Canada, the USSR or Russia and I can pull up lots of threads as evidence to that too if you like.
Disagree completely.

Question: How can you claim the IIHF data you use is valid while simultaneously calling all other data from the same survey 'significantly off'? Did you conduct the study yourself?

Answer: You can't.
It's deceitful to 1. pick and choose data, 2. then claim your data to be the only valid stuff.



BTW, unless you have a persecution complex, I doubt anybody perceives my comments to be about overstating or downplaying any country's accomplishments. This entire thread concerns the counting of and methods used in registering IIHF players. Mellow Out yo!


Last edited by Zine: 06-06-2013 at 06:55 PM.
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06-06-2013, 07:27 PM
  #47
Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Disagree completely.

Question: How can you claim the IIHF data you use is valid while simultaneously calling all other data from the same survey 'significantly off'? Did you conduct the study yourself?

Answer: You can't.
It's deceitful to 1. pick and choose data, 2. then claim your data to be the only valid stuff.



BTW, unless you have a persecution complex, I doubt anybody perceives my comments to be about overstating or downplaying any country's accomplishments. This entire thread concerns the counting of and methods used in registering IIHF players. Mellow Out yo!
I think any reasonably intelligent person should realize that it is entirely likely that some fields within a survey may be more reliable than others. The obvious way to check this is to look at other sources and see if the same trends can be found elsewhere, as I have done. For reasons that have been discussed at length already the number of registered U20 players is likely much more accurate than those for adults, just as the number of indoor rinks is much more easily counted and defined than outdoor ones. You can dream up ways to inflate Russia's numbers all you like but the evidence otherwise is pretty strong.

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06-07-2013, 05:11 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I think any reasonably intelligent person should realize that it is entirely likely that some fields within a survey may be more reliable than others. The obvious way to check this is to look at other sources and see if the same trends can be found elsewhere, as I have done. For reasons that have been discussed at length already the number of registered U20 players is likely much more accurate than those for adults, just as the number of indoor rinks is much more easily counted and defined than outdoor ones. You can dream up ways to inflate Russia's numbers all you like but the evidence otherwise is pretty strong.

You realize U20 Czech players increased by 55% from 2011 to 2012? That's reliable?

Regardless,
****According to the FHR: Only players 10 years and older participating in FHR sanctioned competitions are subject to registration.****

http://fhr-povolzhe.ru/content/view/12/42/



This backs Jussi's claim that only select players (generally higher level) are registered.
100% proof that U20 players are significantly underreported.


Last edited by Zine: 06-07-2013 at 07:04 PM.
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06-07-2013, 07:10 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You realize U20 Czech players increased by 55% from 2011 to 2012? That's reliable?

Regardless,
****According to the FHR: Only players 10 years and older participating in FHR sanctioned competitions are subject to registration.****

http://fhr-povolzhe.ru/content/view/12/42/



This backs Jussi's claim that only select players (generally higher level) are registered.
100% proof that U20 players are significantly underreported.
That fits in line with poster from the Finnish message board. I think he played in the Moscow Dynamo juniors at the younger juniors (under 10 year olds). Case solved.

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06-08-2013, 07:38 AM
  #50
Mr Kanadensisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You realize U20 Czech players increased by 55% from 2011 to 2012? That's reliable?

Regardless,
****According to the FHR: Only players 10 years and older participating in FHR sanctioned competitions are subject to registration.****

http://fhr-povolzhe.ru/content/view/12/42/



This backs Jussi's claim that only select players (generally higher level) are registered.
100% proof that U20 players are significantly underreported.
This certainly helps bolster your case, but does this makes sense to you? I would imagine that high level players between the ages of 10 and 20 are only a small percentage of the total number of kids under 20 playing hockey in Russia. If this were the case then Russia would need a much larger hockey infrastructure (i.e. more arenas) to accomodate this many players. It just doesn't add up.
Do you think it is possible that something might be lost in the translation or context of what registered means? Doesn't it seem more likely that the RHF took this into account when reporting to the IIHF for the survey and that they actually did report the total number of U20 players?

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