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Best Executive in NHL History?

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Old
06-03-2005, 01:08 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
I think you need to go back and read the entire thread. Nobody has said Lacroix hasn't done a good job. Nobody has said he didn't do the right thing paying big bucks to retain the players he retained. In case you missed it, the thread is called "Best Executive in NHL History?" As good a job as Lacroix has done procuring players, with the competitive advantage he inherited in Colorado he has no business being part of the conversation.
As should you.

No one here has claimed he's the best in history and I didn't even catch anyone saying he's better than Lamerillo. It came from a side discussion about Holland. He's a great GM though, got 2 Cups in 10 years and has had a contender every year under his reign. Which I'm sure as a Philly fan you would have given your left nut for.

THNs writter poll earlier this year had him in the top 3, so I don't see how that is an absurd proposition to make. I think he'll be in the hall some day and may make the tail end of a top ten list by the time he is done.

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06-03-2005, 10:40 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Hasbro
As should you.

No one here has claimed he's the best in history and I didn't even catch anyone saying he's better than Lamerillo.
Post #43 of this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drury_Sakic
PL might be over rated... but by no means should he be excluded from the top GM of all time talks...
Like I said, he has no business being part of THAT discussion and it sounds like you agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
It came from a side discussion about Holland. He's a great GM though, got 2 Cups in 10 years and has had a contender every year under his reign. Which I'm sure as a Philly fan you would have given your left nut for.
As a Philly fan, if Bob Clarke walked into the situation PL walked into, I'm quite confident we'd already have that. And I could keep both my nuts.

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Originally Posted by Hasbro
THNs writter poll earlier this year had him in the top 3, so I don't see how that is an absurd proposition to make. I think he'll be in the hall some day and may make the tail end of a top ten list by the time he is done.
I'm aware. If he wasn't highly rated I couldn't very well call him overrated, now could I? That's the thing - most people only look at his results. They don't look at the assets he inherited and judge him relative to other GMs. He has a ways to go before he makes my top 10 list.

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06-03-2005, 11:01 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Post #43 of this thread:

Like I said, he has no business being part of THAT discussion and it sounds like you agree.
Quote:
As a Philly fan, if Bob Clarke walked into the situation PL walked into, I'm quite confident we'd already have that. And I could keep both my nuts.
If he didn't have a fetish for thugs with an overactive pitulitary gland and could pick a goaltender maybe

Quote:
I'm aware. If he wasn't highly rated I couldn't very well call him overrated, now could I? That's the thing - most people only look at his results. They don't look at the assets he inherited and judge him relative to other GMs. He has a ways to go before he makes my top 10 list.
Behind who? Holland's off your list, so there are only 28 other candidates.

Lamerillo had Burke, Muller, Broten, McClean, Daneyko, Verbeek, and #2 pick waiting for him and he rode them to the con finals.

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06-03-2005, 02:34 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
If he didn't have a fetish for thugs with an overactive pitulitary gland and could pick a goaltender maybe
Ah, but let's not forget - if he had been in Lacroix's shoes, he'd have also been his former agent in this fantasy land, and thus, could have also orchestrated his trade to Philly.

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Originally Posted by Hasbro
Behind who? Holland's off your list, so there are only 28 other candidates.
Woah, hang on! I meant he's a long way from my top 10 ALL TIME. I'd put him in my top 10 active list - he'd be in with a hanful of others in the 2-10 no specific order range though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
Lamerillo had Burke, Muller, Broten, McClean, Daneyko, Verbeek, and #2 pick waiting for him and he rode them to the con finals.
LMAO! You're joking right? PLEASE tell me you're joking.

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06-03-2005, 02:54 PM
  #80
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I think Holland's a fine GM. I think most fans underestimate what it takes to keep a winning team together.

However, the signing of Hasek with no viable way to get rid of Cujo was about the stupidest thing I've ever seen done by a GM. I mean, just amazingly stupid.

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06-03-2005, 02:56 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salzy
Ah, but let's not forget - if he had been in Lacroix's shoes, he'd have also been his former agent in this fantasy land, and thus, could have also orchestrated his trade to Philly.
Considering all the whifs he's made in that category I doubt that. Clarke stuck with his old goaltending buddy Hextal way too long.

Quote:
You're joking right? PLEASE tell me you're joking.
As serious as you were saying Bourque for Rolston somehow lowered the Avs chances that year.

All this and you argued that Philly didn't get fleeced in the Lindros trade. Aren't you opporating at cross purposes here?

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06-03-2005, 04:59 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneyp
I think Holland's a fine GM. I think most fans underestimate what it takes to keep a winning team together.

However, the signing of Hasek with no viable way to get rid of Cujo was about the stupidest thing I've ever seen done by a GM. I mean, just amazingly stupid.
He really had no other choice. The Wings had an option and Hasek wanted to return to the league. If Kenny hadn't excercise it, Dom would have been UFA with Colorado (Roy just retired), Philly (Clarke just booted Cechmanek), and others in need of a big-time goaltender. He ate $17M(at the time. Hasek gave back $2M for a NTC and another $3-4M because he was injured and couldn't play) in goalies but that was better than letting him go to the Avs or Flyers. Granted Dom lasted all of 12 games or so, but for all he knew he could have been good to go.

I'd say the manner in which Osgood was let go for nothing when he first traded for Dom was worse, IMO. There were rumors of an Osgood for Atlanta's #1 pick swirling before he acquired Dom. Those promptly went away with Atlanta knowing they had a shot at him through the waiver draft. Kenny should have dispatched of Osgood before the entire league knew he had to give him up.

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06-03-2005, 06:54 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
He really had no other choice. The Wings had an option and Hasek wanted to return to the league. If Kenny hadn't excercise it, Dom would have been UFA with Colorado (Roy just retired), Philly (Clarke just booted Cechmanek), and others in need of a big-time goaltender. He ate $17M(at the time. Hasek gave back $2M for a NTC and another $3-4M because he was injured and couldn't play) in goalies but that was better than letting him go to the Avs or Flyers. Granted Dom lasted all of 12 games or so, but for all he knew he could have been good to go.

I'd say the manner in which Osgood was let go for nothing when he first traded for Dom was worse, IMO. There were rumors of an Osgood for Atlanta's #1 pick swirling before he acquired Dom. Those promptly went away with Atlanta knowing they had a shot at him through the waiver draft. Kenny should have dispatched of Osgood before the entire league knew he had to give him up.
Krupp was a million times worse. Especialy if the story that they didn't insure his contract.

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06-03-2005, 07:08 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
Krupp was a million times worse. Especialy if the story that they didn't insure his contract.
I think the jury is still out on that one (literally). Unless it was resolved and I missed it.


Last edited by norrisnick: 06-03-2005 at 07:13 PM.
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06-03-2005, 09:10 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
Considering all the whifs he's made in that category I doubt that. Clarke stuck with his old goaltending buddy Hextal way too long.
Ah, but you aren't allowed to doubt it. It was a hypothetical fantasy scenario that guaranteed it, regardless of his history in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
As serious as you were saying Bourque for Rolston somehow lowered the Avs chances that year.
I think you have me confused with someone else, because I certainly never said anything like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
All this and you argued that Philly didn't get fleeced in the Lindros trade. Aren't you opporating at cross purposes here?
No, but if you'd like to elaborate, feel free.

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Old
06-03-2005, 09:12 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneyp
I think Holland's a fine GM. I think most fans underestimate what it takes to keep a winning team together.

However, the signing of Hasek with no viable way to get rid of Cujo was about the stupidest thing I've ever seen done by a GM. I mean, just amazingly stupid.
Yes, that was incredibly stupid, as was allowing the Fedorov situation to linger so long that they lost him for nothing.

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06-03-2005, 09:33 PM
  #87
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Sam Pollock is the best ever period. Nobody even comes close.

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Old
06-03-2005, 09:37 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
He really had no other choice. The Wings had an option and Hasek wanted to return to the league. If Kenny hadn't excercise it, Dom would have been UFA with Colorado (Roy just retired), Philly (Clarke just booted Cechmanek), and others in need of a big-time goaltender.
Sorry, I don't buy that at all. Hasek was quoted as saying he wanted to return ONLY with the Red Wings. Maybe it was true, maybe not, but Holland should have said thanks for the memories, but we're set. You can't sign every 8 million dollar player that comes on the market just to block him from signing with your competition. If he had no choice but to bring him back, why was he able to let him walk under IDENTICAL circumstances only a year later? All the reasons people give that Holland "HAD TO" exercise that option in the summer of 03 were still there in 04. And at a much lower rate! Yet in 04, they said thanks, but no thanks and he signed with another contender.

Besides, Philly & Colorado were both rumoured to be in the market for a goalie all year and they stuck with their young guys, so it's presumptuous at best to suggest they would have had an interest in an 8 million dollar head case with a faulty groin that hadn't played in over a year. It was a huge gamble and Holland lost big time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
He ate $17M(at the time. Hasek gave back $2M for a NTC and another $3-4M because he was injured and couldn't play) in goalies but that was better than letting him go to the Avs or Flyers. Granted Dom lasted all of 12 games or so, but for all he knew he could have been good to go.
I believe he deferred the $2 million for the NTC - he didn't give it back altogether. And there was talk that he didn't take a paycheck from the Wings after January but who among us really knows how much $ that amounts to and I would imagine he could still get it from the Wings at any point. Given the character he's shown in the past, it wouldn't surprise me if he comes back to them for it. All in all, we'll call in $15 million all spent on one position for three guys and only one can play on a given night. Outrageous. Some of that could have easily gone towards making arguably their best player - Fedorov - an offer he really could not refuse.

I also think the shabby treatment Cujo received by the organization - being sent to the minors and so forth - only a year after he was given the red carpet treatment to move his family from Toronto where he was a hero sullied the Wings reputation around the league in the eyes of potential future free agents. I think Detroit has long been seen as a place where they treat you right, but the way they did Joseph (I think one of the most popular guys around the league) was just plain wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
I'd say the manner in which Osgood was let go for nothing when he first traded for Dom was worse, IMO. There were rumors of an Osgood for Atlanta's #1 pick swirling before he acquired Dom. Those promptly went away with Atlanta knowing they had a shot at him through the waiver draft. Kenny should have dispatched of Osgood before the entire league knew he had to give him up.
Yes, that was a big time bonehead move too. I had forgotten about that one! Osgood had a lot of value at that time and they let him go for nothing. There were also rumours that had Osgood going to the Rangers for Mike York but Sather wanted the Wings to pick up part of Ozzy's salary and Holland balked. Okay, Ken, let me get this straight - you're okay with paying $17 million in a year for a single player (each game), but you can't come up with, say, a million to add a pretty good young player to your team?

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Old
06-03-2005, 09:38 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
I think the jury is still out on that one (literally). Unless it was resolved and I missed it.
I believe they reached a settlement at some point, then Krupp came back to the Wings. What a bizarre situation that was!

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