HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Rick Nash underrated?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-22-2005, 01:22 PM
  #1
cassius
Registered User
 
cassius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,883
vCash: 500
Rick Nash underrated?

I see a lot of comparison threads that put "<Young Prospect> vs. Rick Nash"... and it seems like the majority of the people pick the prospect. I don't know, but it seems as if Nash deserves more credit. In just his second season, at age 20 mind you, he put down 41 goals, which gave him the rocket richard award. He also recently had a great tournament at worlds. I see so much in this guy and his proven production backs it up. I just don't understand how people would pick unproven prospects over a guy who has shown he has the knack to score at the NHL while still being a young player.

cassius is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 01:25 PM
  #2
FLYLine24*
 
FLYLine24*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 29,102
vCash: 500
Nash is not underrated at all. I dont think hes overrated either.

FLYLine24* is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 01:26 PM
  #3
jacketracket*
 
jacketracket*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ... double cream."
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,516
vCash: 500
But Nash doesn't pass, or play on the PK ...

jacketracket* is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 01:29 PM
  #4
Twist and Shout
Registered User
 
Twist and Shout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,264
vCash: 500
Rick Nash is definately not underrated.

Twist and Shout is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 01:30 PM
  #5
cassius
Registered User
 
cassius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,883
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Nash is not underrated at all. I dont think hes overrated either.
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...highlight=Nash
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...highlight=Nash

I also recall a Tuomo Ruutu thread where numerous people picked Ruutu

cassius is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 01:32 PM
  #6
Porn*
Registered User
 
Porn*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In your nightmares
Country: Israel
Posts: 33,761
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Porn*
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacketracket
But Nash doesn't pass, or play on the PK ...
he has no one worth passing to...

Porn* is online now  
Old
05-22-2005, 01:35 PM
  #7
FLYLine24*
 
FLYLine24*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 29,102
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cassius
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...highlight=Nash
http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...highlight=Nash

I also recall a Tuomo Ruutu thread where numerous people picked Ruutu
So...people picked a future superstar (AO) over another future superstar (Nash), I dont see how thats underrating Nash, but Nash > Ruuto.

FLYLine24* is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 01:35 PM
  #8
jacketracket*
 
jacketracket*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ... double cream."
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porn*
he has no one worth passing to...
Where are Brett Harkins and Robert Kron, when you need them .... ?

jacketracket* is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 02:37 PM
  #9
DaveMatthew
Registered User
 
DaveMatthew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seattle
Country: United States
Posts: 6,648
vCash: 500
Sure he had 41 goals, but he only finished the season with 57 points. Plus, he was a -35, the worse rating on his team, and he was allergic to his own zone.

Please tell me that guys like Spezza or even Ruutu couldn't score that many goals if they were allowed to cherry pick, not pass or enter the defensive zone.

DaveMatthew is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 02:39 PM
  #10
jacketracket*
 
jacketracket*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ... double cream."
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
Please tell me that guys like Spezza or even Ruutu couldn't score that many goals if they were allowed to cherry pick, not pass or enter the defensive zone.

jacketracket* is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 02:42 PM
  #11
DaveMatthew
Registered User
 
DaveMatthew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seattle
Country: United States
Posts: 6,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacketracket
Well Spezza did have 55 points, in 5 less games playing 6 or 7 minutes less per game. Plus, Jacques Martin made him take care of his own zone before playing offense.

If he was allowed to neglect his own zone and go all offense all the time, he would put up much, much better numbers than Nash did last season.

DaveMatthew is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 02:45 PM
  #12
jacketracket*
 
jacketracket*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ... double cream."
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
If he was allowed to neglect his own zone and go all offense all the time, he would put up much, much better numbers than Nash did last season.

jacketracket* is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 02:48 PM
  #13
DaveMatthew
Registered User
 
DaveMatthew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seattle
Country: United States
Posts: 6,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacketracket
Oh wait, he put up almost the same amount of points playing less minutes and less games. He was also a +22, the top forward on Ottawa compared to -35, the worst by far on Columbus.

Nash is in no way underrated. He is also not one of the top players in the game.

DaveMatthew is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 03:03 PM
  #14
jacketracket*
 
jacketracket*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ... double cream."
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
Oh wait, he put up almost the same amount of points playing less minutes and less games. He was also a +22, the top forward on Ottawa compared to -35, the worst by far on Columbus.

Nash is in no way underrated. He is also not one of the top players in the game.
I'm not comparing Nash to Spezza, you are. And you're neglecting to consider the idea that, if roles were reversed and Spezza was in Columbus, the outcome would be similar.

I'm taking exception to your poorly-informed characterization of Nash's play.

jacketracket* is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 03:09 PM
  #15
DaveMatthew
Registered User
 
DaveMatthew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seattle
Country: United States
Posts: 6,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacketracket
I'm not comparing Nash to Spezza, you are. And you're neglecting to consider the idea that, if roles were reversed and Spezza was in Columbus, the outcome would be similar.

I'm taking exception to your poorly-informed characterization of Nash's play.
If Spezza were in Columbus, he would have better numbers than Nash. He had basically the same numbers playing less minutes in Ottawa. And don't say he played with better players, because for the most part, he played with Smolinski on the 3rd or 4th line. The RW was rotated. Sometimes it was Havlat, but not usually.

Now, Nash had Zherdev who is incredibly talented.

And Nash does suck defensively.

DaveMatthew is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 03:10 PM
  #16
DaveMatthew
Registered User
 
DaveMatthew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seattle
Country: United States
Posts: 6,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacketracket
I'm not comparing Nash to Spezza, you are. And you're neglecting to consider the idea that, if roles were reversed and Spezza was in Columbus, the outcome would be similar.

I'm taking exception to your poorly-informed characterization of Nash's play.
And the only reason I'm comparing Nash to Spezza, is to make my point that Nash is not underrated.

He is not a top player in the league. He is no better than a very good young player like Spezza. People who consider him a top player are overrating him.

DaveMatthew is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 03:43 PM
  #17
jacketracket*
 
jacketracket*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ... double cream."
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
And the only reason I'm comparing Nash to Spezza, is to make my point that Nash is not underrated.

He is not a top player in the league. He is no better than a very good young player like Spezza. People who consider him a top player are overrating him.
Couldn't agree with you more.

But going off the deep end in denigrating Nash's play, in order to prove your point, is no less irrational.

jacketracket* is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 04:20 PM
  #18
KH1
Registered User
 
KH1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Under the cap floor
Country: United States
Posts: 16,018
vCash: 500
Nash is not underrated. In fact, many people around here overrate him greatly. He is an excellent scorer, but he is not an adequate defensive player and cannot be relied on to kill penalties.

KH1 is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 04:25 PM
  #19
BuppY
Registered User
 
BuppY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,157
vCash: 500
Nasher isnt underrated. when it comes to Spezza, I think two completely different players, Spezza is more of a playmaker and doesn't have the finishing abilities of Nash. If they were put together they would compliment eachother greatly.

BuppY is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 04:36 PM
  #20
jacketracket*
 
jacketracket*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: ... double cream."
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,516
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
Now, Nash had Zherdev who is incredibly talented.

And Nash does suck defensively.
Somehow, I missed this little bit of blather ...

Yes, Zherdev is incredibly talented. And this fact might be pertinent to your argument, If Nash and Z ever played on the same line together.

And no, you're still simply passing gas. Nash is no better or worse defensively than most offensively-gifted 19 year-olds. He works hard in his own end, and his numbers reflect the fact that the team he plays for --- as a whole --- is defensively challenged.

jacketracket* is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 07:55 PM
  #21
Porn*
Registered User
 
Porn*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In your nightmares
Country: Israel
Posts: 33,761
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Porn*
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
If Spezza were in Columbus, he would have better numbers than Nash. He had basically the same numbers playing less minutes in Ottawa. And don't say he played with better players, because for the most part, he played with Smolinski on the 3rd or 4th line. The RW was rotated. Sometimes it was Havlat, but not usually.

Now, Nash had Zherdev who is incredibly talented.

And Nash does suck defensively.
Hmmm.... first off Nash doesn't suck defensively, its his team that sucks.


secondly, Nash>>>>> SPezza and always will. Spezza only had 55pts because ofthe team he's playing for, if he were in columbus he wouldn't have nearly as many points.

fyi ottawa 3rd/2nd line>columbus 1st line...

Porn* is online now  
Old
05-22-2005, 08:21 PM
  #22
norrisnick
Registered User
 
norrisnick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 16,243
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porn*
Hmmm.... first off Nash doesn't suck defensively, its his team that sucks.


secondly, Nash>>>>> SPezza and always will. Spezza only had 55pts because ofthe team he's playing for, if he were in columbus he wouldn't have nearly as many points.

fyi ottawa 3rd/2nd line>columbus 1st line...

You have that bolded part backwards. Players on good teams generally have a harder time putting up big numbers because the offensive responsibility is diversified, especially younger players trying to break into a stacked team. Had Spezza played 20 minutes a game with all the PP time he would have put up a lot more than 55 points, even on Columbus.

norrisnick is offline  
Old
05-22-2005, 09:19 PM
  #23
DaveMatthew
Registered User
 
DaveMatthew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Seattle
Country: United States
Posts: 6,648
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porn*
Hmmm.... first off Nash doesn't suck defensively, its his team that sucks.


secondly, Nash>>>>> SPezza and always will. Spezza only had 55pts because ofthe team he's playing for, if he were in columbus he wouldn't have nearly as many points.

fyi ottawa 3rd/2nd line>columbus 1st line...
I'd have to disagree. First off, I agree it would not be fair to compare +/- between players on different teams, as the team has a lot to do with the stat. However, when you compare it between players on the same team, the stat is much more telling. In this case, Nash was the worst +/- on his team with a -35. Holzinger was 2nd worst with a -31 and Vyborny was 3rd worst with a -26. So yes, Columbus is a bad defensive team and that partially explains that bad +/-. However, he had the worst rating on a bad defensive team.

I also think you have your second point backwards. It was harder for Spezza to put up 55 points in Ottawa. He would have had a much easier time doing it in Columbus. In Ottawa, he got 3rd line ice-time, almost 5 minutes less per game. He also played in 2 less games. That is significant. He also was not one the first powerplay unit, whereas Rick Nash was. Jacques Martin also made Spezza take care of his defensive zone first. He was not allowed to freewheel offensively, and if he did he was benched. Nash's first priority was not his own zone. It was offense. If Martin had allowed Spezza to focus on offense and neglect defense, his numbers would have been better.

Now, I am not saying that Spezza is a better player than Nash. However, Nash is not underrated. He is, in fact, overrated by many people. He is no better than a Jason Spezza right now. He is not in the same tier as guys like Hossa, Sakic, Iginla and St. Louis. In a few years, I'm sure he will be. I'm sure they both will. But neither of them are. They are both in the same spot. Nash is in no way underrated.

DaveMatthew is offline  
Old
05-23-2005, 01:38 PM
  #24
SoundwaveIsCharisma
Moderator
 
SoundwaveIsCharisma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Screw You Blaster
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,995
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to SoundwaveIsCharisma
A lot of the arguments that Spezza owns Nash simply because he had a better PPG, while playing less minutes on the third line also forget that hey, Nash being the biggest offensive threat on his team gets...guess what? The most defensively strong players on him every single game. It's probably harder to play well when you have Adam Foote and Rob Blake hitting you then John-Michael Liles.

On that note, I do think that Spezza is mighty talented and will be an incredible player. But Nash is also great, if not for his teammates lack of a finishing touch he may have finished with as many points as say, Kovalchuk last year. I personally think that Nash will continue to dominate the league as a goalscorer, that will especially hold true if Crosby is drafted by the Blue Jackets...Just imagine a line of Nash - Crosby - Zherdev...

SoundwaveIsCharisma is offline  
Old
05-23-2005, 04:29 PM
  #25
X0ssbar
 
X0ssbar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ...on a star!
Country: United States
Posts: 13,011
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoach
Oh wait, he put up almost the same amount of points playing less minutes and less games. He was also a +22, the top forward on Ottawa compared to -35, the worst by far on Columbus.

Nash is in no way underrated. He is also not one of the top players in the game.
Oh yes.. the great Rick Nash +/- argument again. Guess its time to pull back out the +/- breakdowns:

Mario Lemieux
1984-1985 Penguins 73 43 57 100 -35 54 11 0 2 0 209 20.6
NOTE - He was a -6 even with scoring 141 points in his 2nd season.

Joe Thornton
1997-1998 Bruins 55 3 4 7 -6 19 0 0 1 0 33 9.1
NOTE - Joe had a total of 7 points as a 18/19 year old. He was a +6 in his 2nd season.

Wayne Gretzky
1979-1980 Edmonton 79 51 86 137 21 0 13 1 6 4 284 17.96
NOTE - Oh yes, even the greatest player of all time didn't have a positive +/- even with his point total early in his career. He was a +41 in his 2nd season while scoring 164 points - that is impressive (most impressive!).

Ilya Kovalchuk
2001-2002 Thrashers 65 29 22 51 -19 28 7 0 4 1 184 15.8
NOTE - He was a -24 in his 2nd season

Steve Yzerman
1983-1984 Red Wings 80 39 48 87 -17 33 13 0 2 1 177 22
NOTE - He was a 0 in his 2nd but a -24 in his 3rd season

Joe Sakic
1988-1989 Nordiques 70 23 39 62 -36 24 10 0 2 1 148 15.5
NOTE - He was a -40 (yes, worse than Rick!!) in his 2nd season.

Eric Lindros
1992-1993 Flyers 61 41 34 75 28 147 8 1 5 1 180 22.8
NOTE: He was a +16 his 2nd season.

Vincent Lecavalier
1998-1999 Lightning 82 13 15 28 -19 23 2 0 2 1 125 10.4
NOTE - He was a -25 in his 2nd season.

Rick Nash
2002-2003 Blue Jackets 74 17 22 39 -27 78 6 0 2 0 154 11
NOTE - He was a -35 in his 2nd season

MY POINT being that, yes, RN needs to work on his defensive game but as history and trends CLEARLY show - the best talents ever to play this game have struggled defensively early in their careers.

All stats found on nhl.com.

X0ssbar is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.