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Rick Nash underrated?

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Old
05-23-2005, 04:31 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 19
A lot of the arguments that Spezza owns Nash simply because he had a better PPG, while playing less minutes on the third line also forget that hey, Nash being the biggest offensive threat on his team gets...guess what? The most defensively strong players on him every single game. It's probably harder to play well when you have Adam Foote and Rob Blake hitting you then John-Michael Liles.

On that note, I do think that Spezza is mighty talented and will be an incredible player. But Nash is also great, if not for his teammates lack of a finishing touch he may have finished with as many points as say, Kovalchuk last year. I personally think that Nash will continue to dominate the league as a goalscorer, that will especially hold true if Crosby is drafted by the Blue Jackets...Just imagine a line of Nash - Crosby - Zherdev...
Nice point about Nash going up against the opponent's best defensive pairings - a point that is often overlooked.

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05-23-2005, 04:47 PM
  #27
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You guys forget

Any Sens player >>> Any other player in the NHL

And if you don't believe me, look at all the cups the Senators have won


ooops

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05-23-2005, 04:57 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Shelf
Oh yes.. the great Rick Nash +/- argument again. Guess its time to pull back out the +/- breakdowns:

Mario Lemieux
1984-1985 Penguins 73 43 57 100 -35 54 11 0 2 0 209 20.6
NOTE - He was a -6 even with scoring 141 points in his 2nd season.

Joe Thornton
1997-1998 Bruins 55 3 4 7 -6 19 0 0 1 0 33 9.1
NOTE - Joe had a total of 7 points as a 18/19 year old. He was a +6 in his 2nd season.

Wayne Gretzky
1979-1980 Edmonton 79 51 86 137 21 0 13 1 6 4 284 17.96
NOTE - Oh yes, even the greatest player of all time didn't have a positive +/- even with his point total early in his career. He was a +41 in his 2nd season while scoring 164 points - that is impressive (most impressive!).

Ilya Kovalchuk
2001-2002 Thrashers 65 29 22 51 -19 28 7 0 4 1 184 15.8
NOTE - He was a -24 in his 2nd season

Steve Yzerman
1983-1984 Red Wings 80 39 48 87 -17 33 13 0 2 1 177 22
NOTE - He was a 0 in his 2nd but a -24 in his 3rd season

Joe Sakic
1988-1989 Nordiques 70 23 39 62 -36 24 10 0 2 1 148 15.5
NOTE - He was a -40 (yes, worse than Rick!!) in his 2nd season.

Eric Lindros
1992-1993 Flyers 61 41 34 75 28 147 8 1 5 1 180 22.8
NOTE: He was a +16 his 2nd season.

Vincent Lecavalier
1998-1999 Lightning 82 13 15 28 -19 23 2 0 2 1 125 10.4
NOTE - He was a -25 in his 2nd season.

Rick Nash
2002-2003 Blue Jackets 74 17 22 39 -27 78 6 0 2 0 154 11
NOTE - He was a -35 in his 2nd season

MY POINT being that, yes, RN needs to work on his defensive game but as history and trends CLEARLY show - the best talents ever to play this game have struggled defensively early in their careers.

All stats found on nhl.com.

This topic is done! Good work

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05-23-2005, 05:16 PM
  #29
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what a silly thread. nash gets all the credit in the world, and deserves it.

just because some people would rather have ovechkin, who supposedly has a higher ceiling...nash is underrated? i wonder if you'd feel the same if it were crosby that were being picked over nash?

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05-23-2005, 05:26 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by jacketracket
But Nash doesn't pass, or play on the PK ...
Did you see the pass he made to Joe Thorton at the worlds? I beg to differ!

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05-23-2005, 05:48 PM
  #31
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If I had Nash on my team, I wouldn't ask him to concentrate on defence. If the guy can score a ton of goals, then let him roar. Spezza had some good D behind him, so his +/- is a result of that. Ilya doesn't play much D, but who cares? Get your team to cover the D without involving Ilya too much and let him break down the opposing D. Same goes with Nash. He has great size and hands, he should use it. The D will come with time. Each player on the ice has a role, and it is defined by the players abilities. With Nash being covered by the best game in and game out, its amazing what he achieved. As soon as some other players of the BJ step up and take the pressure away, and maybe there will be a D to speak of, Nash's stats will soar. I don't thing his ceiling is below AO, because Nash is a PF and they can dominate a game without scoring a goal. A thunder hit or two can really make the opposing team think personal health ahead of winning the game.

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05-23-2005, 06:16 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Shelf
Oh yes.. the great Rick Nash +/- argument again. Guess its time to pull back out the +/- breakdowns:

Mario Lemieux
1984-1985 Penguins 73 43 57 100 -35 54 11 0 2 0 209 20.6
NOTE - He was a -6 even with scoring 141 points in his 2nd season.

Joe Thornton
1997-1998 Bruins 55 3 4 7 -6 19 0 0 1 0 33 9.1
NOTE - Joe had a total of 7 points as a 18/19 year old. He was a +6 in his 2nd season.

Wayne Gretzky
1979-1980 Edmonton 79 51 86 137 21 0 13 1 6 4 284 17.96
NOTE - Oh yes, even the greatest player of all time didn't have a positive +/- even with his point total early in his career. He was a +41 in his 2nd season while scoring 164 points - that is impressive (most impressive!).

Ilya Kovalchuk
2001-2002 Thrashers 65 29 22 51 -19 28 7 0 4 1 184 15.8
NOTE - He was a -24 in his 2nd season

Steve Yzerman
1983-1984 Red Wings 80 39 48 87 -17 33 13 0 2 1 177 22
NOTE - He was a 0 in his 2nd but a -24 in his 3rd season

Joe Sakic
1988-1989 Nordiques 70 23 39 62 -36 24 10 0 2 1 148 15.5
NOTE - He was a -40 (yes, worse than Rick!!) in his 2nd season.

Eric Lindros
1992-1993 Flyers 61 41 34 75 28 147 8 1 5 1 180 22.8
NOTE: He was a +16 his 2nd season.

Vincent Lecavalier
1998-1999 Lightning 82 13 15 28 -19 23 2 0 2 1 125 10.4
NOTE - He was a -25 in his 2nd season.

Rick Nash
2002-2003 Blue Jackets 74 17 22 39 -27 78 6 0 2 0 154 11
NOTE - He was a -35 in his 2nd season

MY POINT being that, yes, RN needs to work on his defensive game but as history and trends CLEARLY show - the best talents ever to play this game have struggled defensively early in their careers.

All stats found on nhl.com.
Great point man. Thats really interesting

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Old
05-23-2005, 06:51 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cassius
I see a lot of comparison threads that put "<Young Prospect> vs. Rick Nash"... and it seems like the majority of the people pick the prospect. I don't know, but it seems as if Nash deserves more credit. In just his second season, at age 20 mind you, he put down 41 goals, which gave him the rocket richard award. He also recently had a great tournament at worlds. I see so much in this guy and his proven production backs it up. I just don't understand how people would pick unproven prospects over a guy who has shown he has the knack to score at the NHL while still being a young player.
I haven't read the whole thread but here is the explanation:

It's not that Rick Nash is underrated (he is by some, is justly rated by others and overrated by others). It's that on HF, "young hot new things" acknowledged as prospects are usually overrated and favored. Many of them are instilled with almost superhuman, ridiculous ceilings. It is often more of a fantasy than a reality. Around here, the WJCs are absolutely big but trouble is, most people don't know how to assess WJC performances so you end up with stuff like "Frolov = next Jagr!!111!!1!".

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05-23-2005, 07:05 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
You have that bolded part backwards. Players on good teams generally have a harder time putting up big numbers because the offensive responsibility is diversified, especially younger players trying to break into a stacked team.
Please do not misinform people with junk theories.

The truth is, there is no discernable team pattern that favors scoring by young players. You just need to have the right talent on the right team for the right coach with other little right things at the right time.

If you wanted to point something Nash has going for him, you should have pointed to him being a winger. Now, that is something that clearly helps your chances of putting numbers in the early years. It usually takes centers longer to develop.

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05-23-2005, 07:49 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Please do not misinform people with junk theories.

The truth is, there is no discernable team pattern that favors scoring by young players. You just need to have the right talent on the right team for the right coach with other little right things at the right time.

If you wanted to point something Nash has going for him, you should have pointed to him being a winger. Now, that is something that clearly helps your chances of putting numbers in the early years. It usually takes centers longer to develop.
And those right situations at the right time would generally include not having a wealth of veteran talent on your team regardless of the coach. If you have good proven players odds are they will play ahead of good unproven players. If you don't have good proven players odds are you'll ride your young horse.

I don't really think this is some hairbrained theory as I can't think of too many coaches around the league that favor the younger players and ice them ahead of proven veteran talent.

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Old
05-23-2005, 10:05 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
And those right situations at the right time would generally include not having a wealth of veteran talent on your team regardless of the coach. If you have good proven players odds are they will play ahead of good unproven players. If you don't have good proven players odds are you'll ride your young horse.

I don't really think this is some hairbrained theory as I can't think of too many coaches around the league that favor the younger players and ice them ahead of proven veteran talent.
I'd like you to demonstrate that, then.

If we go by 1998-drafted early starts, for instance, Tanguay, Gagne, Gomez must have played for worse teams than Lecavalier and Legwand (Lightning/Preds).

I'd also point to Ottawa's very own Martin Havlat. Same team as Spezza, same coach. He's a 199 drafted. Why the hell is he on such a hot pace so early in his career, while guys like Patrik Stefan, parked on Atlanta, isn't doing anything?

There are many, many teams who ice youngsters in advantageous situations, if the youngster can do the job. Rookies do get placed in great spots. If you look at a trophy like the Calder, you will see it goes everywhere, from crap team (Heatley), to great teams (Drury) to everything in between. In fact, lately it might even have favored the good teams.

If you have detected a trend of young players getting better stats on crap teams, that's fine, but I'd like to see where you got that.

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05-23-2005, 11:29 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I'd like you to demonstrate that, then.

If we go by 1998-drafted early starts, for instance, Tanguay, Gagne, Gomez must have played for worse teams than Lecavalier and Legwand (Lightning/Preds).

I'd also point to Ottawa's very own Martin Havlat. Same team as Spezza, same coach. He's a 199 drafted. Why the hell is he on such a hot pace so early in his career, while guys like Patrik Stefan, parked on Atlanta, isn't doing anything?

There are many, many teams who ice youngsters in advantageous situations, if the youngster can do the job. Rookies do get placed in great spots. If you look at a trophy like the Calder, you will see it goes everywhere, from crap team (Heatley), to great teams (Drury) to everything in between. In fact, lately it might even have favored the good teams.

If you have detected a trend of young players getting better stats on crap teams, that's fine, but I'd like to see where you got that.
If there is a good veteran and a good rookie, who will get more ice time/ie more opportunity to shine (provided they are both capable of the same amount of playing time)? Would Gomez have put up 70 points his rookie year if he played for the Avalanche that are dressing Sakic and Forsberg at his position? Would Heatley have received his icetime and points if he joined up with Alfredsson and Hossa at his position in Ottawa? There is only so much icetime and talented veterans, generally speaking, get the bulk of it.

That's all I'm saying and I don't think it is that outrageous.

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05-23-2005, 11:43 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Shelf
Oh yes.. the great Rick Nash +/- argument again. Guess its time to pull back out the +/- breakdowns:

Mario Lemieux
1984-1985 Penguins 73 43 57 100 -35 54 11 0 2 0 209 20.6
NOTE - He was a -6 even with scoring 141 points in his 2nd season.

Joe Thornton
1997-1998 Bruins 55 3 4 7 -6 19 0 0 1 0 33 9.1
NOTE - Joe had a total of 7 points as a 18/19 year old. He was a +6 in his 2nd season.

Wayne Gretzky
1979-1980 Edmonton 79 51 86 137 21 0 13 1 6 4 284 17.96
NOTE - Oh yes, even the greatest player of all time didn't have a positive +/- even with his point total early in his career. He was a +41 in his 2nd season while scoring 164 points - that is impressive (most impressive!).

Ilya Kovalchuk
2001-2002 Thrashers 65 29 22 51 -19 28 7 0 4 1 184 15.8
NOTE - He was a -24 in his 2nd season

Steve Yzerman
1983-1984 Red Wings 80 39 48 87 -17 33 13 0 2 1 177 22
NOTE - He was a 0 in his 2nd but a -24 in his 3rd season

Joe Sakic
1988-1989 Nordiques 70 23 39 62 -36 24 10 0 2 1 148 15.5
NOTE - He was a -40 (yes, worse than Rick!!) in his 2nd season.

Eric Lindros
1992-1993 Flyers 61 41 34 75 28 147 8 1 5 1 180 22.8
NOTE: He was a +16 his 2nd season.

Vincent Lecavalier
1998-1999 Lightning 82 13 15 28 -19 23 2 0 2 1 125 10.4
NOTE - He was a -25 in his 2nd season.

Rick Nash
2002-2003 Blue Jackets 74 17 22 39 -27 78 6 0 2 0 154 11
NOTE - He was a -35 in his 2nd season

MY POINT being that, yes, RN needs to work on his defensive game but as history and trends CLEARLY show - the best talents ever to play this game have struggled defensively early in their careers.

All stats found on nhl.com.
Mario Lemeiux does not play defense

Neither does Kovalchuk

Steve Yzerman was a one-dimentional player when he was drafted.

Vincent Lecavlier isn't a great defensive player.

Rick Nash is definatly an goal-scoring ace. He has size, one of the - if not - best hands in the league, and great on ice vision. However, his skating isn't great, and he's terrible in his own zone. Thats the only possible reason he'd get ranked lower then someone like, say, Ovechkin. Guys like Spezza and Frolov... wtf?

I have to admit I'm not a big Rick Nash fan for that reason, but he seems to have a great attitude and can be tought the defensive side of the puck (ie. like Steve Yzerman and Mike Modano).

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05-23-2005, 11:44 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
You guys forget

Any Sens player >>> Any other player in the NHL

And if you don't believe me, look at all the cups the Senators have won


ooops
huh? What the hell?

That makes no sense whatsoever

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05-23-2005, 11:50 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Would Heatley have received his icetime and points if he joined up with Alfredsson and Hossa at his position in Ottawa?
That's what this guy did

I think Heatley would have found ways. You build another line, switch sides, whatever it takes. Something always happen if it is meant to happen.

I do agree with you that coaches put the best players they can, but that is a pretty complicated subject, and often includes putting veterans with youngsters.

From Patrik Stefan to Gaborik, Havlat, Comrie, Hemsky, Frolov, Connolly, Beech, Havlat, the twins, Legwand, Ruutu, Weiss, Thornton, Marleau, Jokinen, Hossa, Chistov, Tanguay, Gagne, Legwand, Lecavalier, Datsyuk, etc... there is no trend I see.

Some of them had lackluster point totals, some had impressive point totals but there is no trend that those on weak teams do noticably better in their beginnings.

One year, Heatley/Kovalchuk were both runner up for the Calder on a crappy team. Another year, it was Drury/Hejduk on a stellar powerhouse. It just depends. I guess I am just looking for you to establish a statistical trend demonstrating that young forwards on bad teams score more. I see no such thing.

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05-24-2005, 12:00 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Mario Lemeiux does not play defense

Neither does Kovalchuk

Steve Yzerman was a one-dimentional player when he was drafted.

Vincent Lecavlier isn't a great defensive player.

Rick Nash is definatly an goal-scoring ace. He has size, one of the - if not - best hands in the league, and great on ice vision. However, his skating isn't great, and he's terrible in his own zone. Thats the only possible reason he'd get ranked lower then someone like, say, Ovechkin. Guys like Spezza and Frolov... wtf?

I have to admit I'm not a big Rick Nash fan for that reason, but he seems to have a great attitude and can be tought the defensive side of the puck (ie. like Steve Yzerman and Mike Modano).
Indeed, I think he can. It's up to him.

BTW, Lecavalier is really improving in several team aspects. Torts is hardcore. I think he has done great things with Vinny. Lecavalier and Forsberg are very, very different players but I think Tortorella is trying to go for a Colorado setup, where one center is mostly a consistent scoring threat (Sakic/Richards), and the other is much more annoying to play against (Forsberg/Lecavalier) and an all-utility sort of guy. Detroit also did the same with Yzerman/Fedorov.

In all three cases, the first guy gets the quality linemates and optimal game situations, the second guy is better than the first guy but gets whatever scraps for linemates and does whatever he is asked to do.

I think he will continue to try and round out Lecavalier as much as possible to accomplish this.

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05-24-2005, 12:02 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
That's what this guy did

I think Heatley would have found ways. You build another line, switch sides, whatever it takes. Something always happen if it is meant to happen.

I do agree with you that coaches put the best players they can, but that is a pretty complicated subject, and often includes putting veterans with youngsters.

From Patrik Stefan to Gaborik, Havlat, Comrie, Hemsky, Frolov, Connolly, Beech, Havlat, the twins, Legwand, Ruutu, Weiss, Thornton, Marleau, Jokinen, Hossa, Chistov, Tanguay, Gagne, Legwand, Lecavalier, Datsyuk, etc... there is no trend I see.

Some of them had lackluster point totals, some had impressive point totals but there is no trend that those on weak teams do noticably better in their beginnings.

One year, Heatley/Kovalchuk were both runner up for the Calder on a crappy team. Another year, it was Drury/Hejduk on a stellar powerhouse. It just depends. I guess I am just looking for you to establish a statistical trend demonstrating that young forwards on bad teams score more. I see no such thing.
Havlat didn't quite put up the numbers that Heatley did. Not playing behind Daniel and Marian he might have.

Maybe there is no such trend among young players or we aren't looking at the right circumstances. *shrug*

Perhaps it was just closely following Bowman's veteran preference leading the Wings. They often lead the league in scoring or very close, but rarely have they had a top 10 scorer in recent years because it was so evenly spread out with the younger players at the bottom of the totem pole.

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05-24-2005, 12:14 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by norrisnick
Havlat didn't quite put up the numbers that Heatley did. Not playing behind Daniel and Marian he might have.

Maybe there is no such trend among young players or we aren't looking at the right circumstances. *shrug*

I dunno. Replace Heatley with Gaborik then

As for the set of circumstances you are looking for, my friendly advice is to look at forwards who start on the wing. There is a pretty tangible trend here, IMO. They do tend to get more points than the centers. It's very significant, and probably due to lesser responsibilities.

Guys like Spezza, Legwand, Lecavalier, Thornton, Marleau, Stefan tend to have less points than the Hossa, Gaborik, Heatley, Kovalchuk, Nash, Havlat, Zherdev, etc. early on in their career.

(there are of course exceptions. Gomez would be one. But I see a trend)

The luckiest are guys like Tanguay/Gagne, who can play many positions so they aren't stuck in the middle. But then again perhaps it's better to keep a guy in the middle and develop him slowly into an elite guy.

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05-24-2005, 12:33 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I dunno. Replace Heatley with Gaborik then

As for the set of circumstances you are looking for, my friendly advice is to look at forwards who start on the wing. There is a pretty tangible trend here, IMO. They do tend to get more points than the centers. It's very significant, and probably due to lesser responsibilities.

Guys like Spezza, Legwand, Lecavalier, Thornton, Marleau, Stefan tend to have less points than the Hossa, Gaborik, Heatley, Kovalchuk, Nash, Havlat, Zherdev, etc. early on in their career.

(there are of course exceptions. Gomez would be one. But I see a trend)

The luckiest are guys like Tanguay/Gagne, who can play many positions so they aren't stuck in the middle. But then again perhaps it's better to keep a guy in the middle and develop him slowly into an elite guy.
Gaborik had to play for Lemaire. Were he allowed to really fly uninhibited like Nash, Heatley, and Kovalchuk he would have put up even better numbers, IMO.

I see your point with wingers and centers. It is much easier to stick a young winger with a more veteran center than the other way around.

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05-24-2005, 07:35 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Mario Lemeiux does not play defense

Neither does Kovalchuk

Steve Yzerman was a one-dimentional player when he was drafted.

Vincent Lecavlier isn't a great defensive player.

Rick Nash is definatly an goal-scoring ace. He has size, one of the - if not - best hands in the league, and great on ice vision. However, his skating isn't great, and he's terrible in his own zone. Thats the only possible reason he'd get ranked lower then someone like, say, Ovechkin. Guys like Spezza and Frolov... wtf?

I have to admit I'm not a big Rick Nash fan for that reason, but he seems to have a great attitude and can be tought the defensive side of the puck (ie. like Steve Yzerman and Mike Modano).
]

To be honest, I'm not sure I'm following your point?

The guys I have listed I picked because they are players that were in the relative same position as Nash currently is w/ the CBJ (i.e. a young offensive franchise type player in his teens who was taken early in his draft year playing on a weak team).

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Old
05-24-2005, 11:03 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Around here, the WJCs are absolutely big but trouble is, most people don't know how to assess WJC performances so you end up with stuff like "Frolov = next Jagr!!111!!1!".
No kidding. If they had half a brain, they'd be saying Frolov >>>>>>>> Jagr in his prime


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05-24-2005, 04:52 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Habs4Life
Did you see the pass he made to Joe Thorton at the worlds? I beg to differ!
Agreed.

Being a CBJ fan (and season ticket holder) I've seen quite a bit of Nash. I was merely supplying the inevitable criticisms of Nash that pop up like weeds on the CBJ board, from outsiders.

Preemptive sarcasm, so to speak.

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