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Old
06-24-2013, 06:28 PM
  #126
SoupNazi
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Explain.
A 30 goal scorer, a guy with top-4 potential, and two good prospects for a guy who puts up a highlight-reel goal occasionally but floats a lot. It's an easy pass from the perspective of the Wings.

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06-24-2013, 06:39 PM
  #127
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A 30 goal scorer, a guy with top-4 potential, and two good prospects for a guy who puts up a highlight-reel goal occasionally but floats a lot. It's an easy pass from the perspective of the Wings.
A perennial 30 goal scorer (you mean, a guy who's scored 30 goals once in his career)? Wouldn't be worth that? And giving up Smith (when we have a deep goaltending pool)? One, maybe two depending on what Anaheim once (with a deep forward pool)?

Bobby Ryan Floats? He's 25 and outside of years that have been locked out, he hasn't failed to score more than 30 goals.

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06-24-2013, 06:42 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Explain.
Semi-young 30+ goal scorer for an older 30- goal scorer. For that we give up two significant future pieces. Ryan could also bolt for free agency in 2015, which probably is before Franzen even starts to decline. Never make trades hoping to re-sign a guy.

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06-24-2013, 06:45 PM
  #129
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Newsflash: Johan Franzen hasn't scored 30 goals since 08-09.

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06-24-2013, 06:48 PM
  #130
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Newsflash: Johan Franzen hasn't scored 30 goals since 08-09.
While I never give credit for being injured, he paced 30 goals over 82 games in all of the 2007-2012 seasons. This season he paced 28.

The last three seasons Ryan has scored 76 goals, Franzen has scored 71.

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06-24-2013, 06:52 PM
  #131
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While I never give credit for being injured, he paced 30 goals over 82 games in all of the 2007-2012 seasons. This season he paced 28.

The last three seasons Ryan has scored 76 goals, Franzen has scored 71.
Ryan is younger. Ryan is more aggressive. Ryan would be coming onto a team that is in transition to the new guard. In our transition year, we took a Stanley Cup contestant to game seven, and for all intents and purposes should have put them away before that. Suggesting he could bolt is a bit too much.

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06-24-2013, 06:56 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Ryan is younger. Ryan is more aggressive. Ryan would be coming onto a team that is in transition to the new guard. In our transition year, we took a Stanley Cup contestant to game seven, and for all intents and purposes should have put them away before that. Suggesting he could bolt is a bit too much.
Why? It's a strong possibility.

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06-24-2013, 06:57 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Ryan is younger. Ryan is more aggressive. Ryan would be coming onto a team that is in transition to the new guard. In our transition year, we took a Stanley Cup contestant to game seven, and for all intents and purposes should have put them away before that. Suggesting he could bolt is a bit too much.
You're not gonna make me a believer of Ryan's abilities outside of goalscoring.

Suggesting he bolts is harsh, but less years on the contract means less trade value.

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06-24-2013, 06:59 PM
  #134
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You're not gonna make me a believer of Ryan's abilities outside of goalscoring.
That's fine, because goalscoring is what we really lacked last year.

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06-24-2013, 07:02 PM
  #135
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That's fine, because goalscoring is what we really lacked last year.
And my point is that we trade for a moderate upgrade, but at the same time giving up future considerations. Franzen scored more goals than Ryan this season, there are no guarantees Ryan scores more goals than Franzen even if I'm willing to admit Ryan historically puts up a few more goals per year.

If you could trade for Ryan w/o giving up Franzen we have a whole new conversation.

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06-24-2013, 07:09 PM
  #136
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And my point is that we trade for a moderate upgrade, but at the same time giving up future considerations. Franzen scored more goals than Ryan this season, there are no guarantees Ryan scores more goals than Franzen even if I'm willing to admit Ryan historically puts up a few more goals per year.

If you could trade for Ryan w/o giving up Franzen we have a whole new conversation.

By that logic, there's no guarantee Franzen scores more goals than Ryan does either.

Per 60 minutes, Ryan has been on the ice for more goals than Franzen was last year. In fact, Ryan was on the ice for more goals than Franzen was last season. Franzen had a negative Corsi rating last year around -2.4. Ryan had a positive Corsi of 4.5. Team controls the puck when Ryan is on the ice more than when Franzen is. Ryan has a higher team shooting percentage than Franzen did last year. There are plenty of statistics saying Ryan is an upgrade over Franzen.

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06-24-2013, 08:22 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Scuderi blocks pucks with his face.
Scuderi clears the crease.
scuderi does all the dirty work that very few players on this team do.

I don't care what advanced statistics say, Scuderi also played very tough minutes and assignments while Quincey played some of the most sheltered minutes on the Wings. They aren't even comparable.

Max Talbot scored two goals to win the cup for Pittsburgh. Let's trade for him.

Scuderi this season averaged 3 goals against per 60 minutes. That's enough to lose you a game. Quincey? As sheltered as he is, he was giving up less than two goals per 60 minutes. Maybe it's the system, but wouldn't you say LA's system is more defence oriented and favoring defensive defensemen who get the puck away from attackers and get it to their own guys, thus limiting opponent's scoring chances?

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06-24-2013, 08:29 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Max Talbot scored two goals to win the cup for Pittsburgh. Let's trade for him.

Scuderi this season averaged 3 goals against per 60 minutes. That's enough to lose you a game. Quincey? As sheltered as he is, he was giving up less than two goals per 60 minutes. Maybe it's the system, but wouldn't you say LA's system is more defence oriented and favoring defensive defensemen who get the puck away from attackers and get it to their own guys, thus limiting opponent's scoring chances?
Glad you got the right player on your do-over this time

It's really just not comparable at all. Talbot isn't reliable to score goals. Scuderi is reliable to block shots and clear the crease, which is what he does.

Scuderi is a good defensive defensemen. Quincey is a two-way defensemen who's not great offensively or defensively.

You're telling me less goals were scored on against Quincey who played significantly less minutes, and against significantly weaker match-ups? Shocker, I never would have guessed that.

Scuderi played top pairing minutes on a team that went farther than the Wings. Nuff said.

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06-24-2013, 08:43 PM
  #139
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3 things really:

A) I would take Scuderi in a heartbeat and if your advanced statistics say that's wrong you need to go work on those statistics because they don't have much to do with hockey. (Yeah that was rude, I'm sorry but we're seriously discussing the idea that Kyle Quincey is better defensively than Scuderi? That's not even funny.)

B) You'll get Jurco from my cold dead hands; don't give that kid away he's going to pair with Jarnkrok to win about a billion games for us eventually.

C) So we snap change at 1K posts? I was so lost and lonely Don't confuse the newb!

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06-24-2013, 08:54 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
By that logic, there's no guarantee Franzen scores more goals than Ryan does either.

Per 60 minutes, Ryan has been on the ice for more goals than Franzen was last year. In fact, Ryan was on the ice for more goals than Franzen was last season. Franzen had a negative Corsi rating last year around -2.4. Ryan had a positive Corsi of 4.5. Team controls the puck when Ryan is on the ice more than when Franzen is. Ryan has a higher team shooting percentage than Franzen did last year. There are plenty of statistics saying Ryan is an upgrade over Franzen.
You're not catching my point, or just reading half posts. I'm saying Ryan is an upgrade over Franzen. I'm saying the upgrade isn't big enough to warrant significant pieces going the other way too. I'm also saying Ryan is only signed for another two years and there are no guarantees. The value in the trade isn't there. The trade wasn't Franzen for Ryan straight up.

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06-24-2013, 09:04 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Glad you got the right player on your do-over this time

It's really just not comparable at all. Talbot isn't reliable to score goals. Scuderi is reliable to block shots and clear the crease, which is what he does.

Scuderi is a good defensive defensemen. Quincey is a two-way defensemen who's not great offensively or defensively.

You're telling me less goals were scored on against Quincey who played significantly less minutes, and against significantly weaker match-ups? Shocker, I never would have guessed that.

Scuderi played top pairing minutes on a team that went farther than the Wings. Nuff said.
Scuderi's turning 35 and has played with Drew Doughty a majority of his time in LA, from what I understand. He played maybe 2 more minutes on average playing slightly better quality of competition. There are red flags for signing types like Scuderi at his age. Quincey used the way he has has been better than Scuderi has been used.

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06-24-2013, 09:23 PM
  #142
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You're not catching my point, or just reading half posts. I'm saying Ryan is an upgrade over Franzen. I'm saying the upgrade isn't big enough to warrant significant pieces going the other way too. I'm also saying Ryan is only signed for another two years and there are no guarantees. The value in the trade isn't there. The trade wasn't Franzen for Ryan straight up.
Ryan is a significant upgrade over Franzen. Scores more goals, is younger and on his upside, healthier, throws the body around more. Worth sending assets for over Franzen who will enter decline mode soon. Straight up isn't a fair deal for Anaheim either. You have to give to get. I'd give to get an upgrade.

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06-24-2013, 09:29 PM
  #143
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I'm not seeing the point in Scuderi. He's solid defensively, but he's not a high-end shut down guy, especially at this point in his career, and we're already looking at walking into training camp with eight D under contract. Maybe he'd let Smith wander more, but I don't see Scuderi as a significant enough upgrade over a guy like Quincey or CC to make it worth the hassle. Also, it's not like we had a hard time keeping the puck out of the net last season.

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06-24-2013, 11:09 PM
  #144
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Can anyone give some info on Colaiacovo? Seems like most don't have him pencilled in but I thought he played alright? At just 2.5 next yr, some people are suggesting that he's a buyout candidate? How much would he cost in a trade? What could teams expect from him in terms of playing time/ability

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06-25-2013, 08:11 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Gardiner Expressway View Post
Can anyone give some info on Colaiacovo? Seems like most don't have him pencilled in but I thought he played alright? At just 2.5 next yr, some people are suggesting that he's a buyout candidate? How much would he cost in a trade? What could teams expect from him in terms of playing time/ability
Buying out Quincey>>> Buying out Cola

Quincey makes more, and is a worse or equal player. The problem is we gave up a first for Quincey which still boggles my mind.

I think Cola would be a great #6 guy who can move the puck which we can really lack. He also costs quite a bit less.

I'd prefer to see Quincey traded(Make some value back), Sammy and Bert bought out. Emmerton and Tootoo Im torn on. I think I'd rather see Sheahan brought up for the 4th line center spot if Helm cant play than keeping Emmerton around. Glendening and Ferraro are possibilities too.

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06-25-2013, 11:55 AM
  #146
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so what do you guys reckon we could get for cola, tootoo and emmerton if we were trying to offload them? a 3rd and two 4ths? more? less?

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06-25-2013, 12:06 PM
  #147
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If we lose Tootoo who is our enforcer? Are they going to sign one? If they do, I hope he's huge and can actually play on a 4th line.

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06-25-2013, 12:41 PM
  #148
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If we lose Tootoo who is our enforcer? Are they going to sign one? If they do, I hope he's huge and can actually play on a 4th line.
Probably not, I would imagine that Bert would play that role on the 3rd or 4th line. Not an "enforcer" per se but somebody with size who can intimidate the opponents.

Or Abby (if Horton is signed and kicks him to line 3-4), but he loses fights and acts like a puss at times.


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06-25-2013, 12:45 PM
  #149
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If we lose Tootoo who is our enforcer? Are they going to sign one? If they do, I hope he's huge and can actually play on a 4th line.
This guy:

http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/8849/videos


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06-25-2013, 12:46 PM
  #150
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Callahan is an intriguing option but is he ready for the pro game, I don't know much about his other abilities but I do know he's an effective grinder who has been compared to Tootoo.

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