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Montreal Canadiens Drafting Hit Rate (under Trevor Timmins)

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Old
06-03-2013, 02:31 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
I've said fire certain people or been upset about certain management's decisions (BG, PG, etc.) without knowing some critical info maybe?

However I know everything about BG's time as the GM, from TT (now, thank you very much) to Kovalev acquisition, to Price selection, to Huet trade to Koivu non re-sign to Gomez and everything else in between. Still think he was one of our worst GMs in history, but not worse than Rejean. My god we have had some bad management at the helm of our beloved franchise.

And I don't think it was a colossal mistake, like drafting David Fischer that he knows they screwed up on, but still a mistake i think.
Yeah, I agree with you there. Not the finest moments.

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06-03-2013, 02:31 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
I was talking about the first round only.

And yes you can in comparison to your pick. If i'm Philadelphia, i had a great draft in 2003 considering i got Carter and Richards (even though they flipped both of them for prospects plus 1st rounders at the draft two years ago). If i'm Nashville, I had a great draft too. Same goes with Anaheim, New Jersey, etc. Montreal had a below average draft (especially considering their position) and other teams like Columbus also below average, teams like Rangers, Islanders, Sharks, Bruins, Oilers, Panthers, Kings, Blues had significantly worse drafts.
Even a team like Philly that had a great draft would pick two different players in hindsight. For the vast majority of picks every year you can find someone who is better that was picked later. That's why you have to look at what you ended up with not what you could have had.

We ended up with an average top-6 player. Compared to other teams that year we were average, maybe a little below average given our draft position.

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06-03-2013, 02:35 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
I've said fire certain people or been upset about certain management's decisions (BG, PG, etc.) without knowing some critical info maybe?

However I know everything about BG's time as the GM, from TT (now, thank you very much) to Kovalev acquisition, to Price selection, to Huet trade to Koivu non re-sign to Gomez and everything else in between. Still think he was one of our worst GMs in history, but not worse than Rejean. My god we have had some bad management at the helm of our beloved franchise.

And I don't think it was a colossal mistake, like drafting David Fischer that he knows they screwed up on, but still a mistake i think.
That's laughable, were you with him 24/7. What we fans "know" is only a tiny portion of what actually goes on.

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06-03-2013, 02:37 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
no one , hands down TT has produced more NHL players at the draft than anyone
our only problem is the lack of first round misses or disapointments like Fisher and AK46 , though he was rated high , man we missed so many top players in a great great draft and that hurts
Anaheim comes close, but no cigar:

2003:
Getzlaf
Perry
Miller (Drew)
O'Brien

2004:
Smid
Brent

2005:
Ryan
Mikkelson

2006:
Matt Beleskey

2007:

Eric Tangradi
Steven Kampfner

Edit #1: Boston ironically has had great drafts, 2006 in particular:

2003:
Stuart
Bergeron
Thompson

2004:
Krejci
Versteeg
Hunwick

2005:
Sobotka

2006:
Kessel
Lucic
Marchand


Last edited by dmanfish90: 06-03-2013 at 02:45 PM. Reason: #1: Add Boston
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06-03-2013, 02:40 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Even a team like Philly that had a great draft would pick two different players in hindsight. For the vast majority of picks every year you can find someone who is better that was picked later. That's why you have to look at what you ended up with not what you could have had.

We ended up with an average top-6 player. Compared to other teams that year we were average, maybe a little below average given our draft position.
Dude. We ended up with below average since AK46 isn't even in the NHL anymore, I think most people would agree. At the time while he was in the NHL, AK46 was average while everyone else were above average or mostly stars.

The point is, I'm comparing our selection to everyone else's selection and it clearly sucks. Philadelphia's selections to Anaheim's selections, aren't nearly as bad as let's say our selection versus New Jersey's selection in Parise.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
That's laughable, were you with him 24/7. What we fans "know" is only a tiny portion of what actually goes on.
Sorry let me rephrase. I knew everything that most fans were privy too, including Ribeiro cancers, Koivu/Kovalev issues, Gomez fiasco, Gionta vs. Kovalev signing, Cammy trade, and everything else in between...

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06-03-2013, 02:44 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
no one , hands down TT has produced more NHL players at the draft than anyone
our only problem is the lack of first round misses or disapointments like Fisher and AK46 , though he was rated high , man we missed so many top players in a great great draft and that hurts
I hate our lack of first round misses too

But seriously even first round picks end up nothing special more often than not. Since taking over he got

1 top-6 winger
1 bottom-6 center
1 high end starting goalie
1 top pairing D-man
1 first line winger

The rest are too early to tell though Galchenyuk, Beaulieu & Tinordi have all shown a lot of promise.

Can you name 5 teams that have better 1st round records over the same period?

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06-03-2013, 02:52 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I hate our lack of first round misses too

But seriously even first round picks end up nothing special more often than not. Since taking over he got

1 top-6 winger
1 bottom-6 center
1 high end starting goalie
1 top pairing D-man
1 first line winger

The rest are too early to tell though Galchenyuk, Beaulieu & Tinordi have all shown a lot of promise.

Can you name 5 teams that have better 1st round records over the same period?
AK46 is not a top 6 winger anymore. He was once. But considering he's not in the NHL anymore, you CANNOT include him in your 1st round "success".

So who has had 1 bottom 3-centre (he's not a Top 9 forward Chipchura), 1 high end starting goalie in Price, 1 top pairing D-man in McD and 1 first line winger in MaxPac?

Let's find out...

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06-03-2013, 02:59 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Dude. We ended up with below average since AK46 isn't even in the NHL anymore, I think most people would agree. At the time while he was in the NHL, AK46 was average while everyone else were above average or mostly stars.

The point is, I'm comparing our selection to everyone else's selection and it clearly sucks. Philadelphia's selections to Anaheim's selections, aren't nearly as bad as let's say our selection versus New Jersey's selection in Parise.
Whether he's in the NHL or not doesn't really matter since a) He could be in the NHL if he wanted to but he got a better deal in the KHL and b) a bunch of those players are no longer with the team that drafted them, and some were lost for virtually nothing. So how is Jersey better off selecting Parise and then losing him for nothing?

How does it suck compared to everyone else's when other teams like the Rangers drafted a player that played a grand total of 2 NHL games. Over a third of the teams drafted worse than us. That makes us average.

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06-03-2013, 03:06 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
AK46 is not a top 6 winger anymore. He was once. But considering he's not in the NHL anymore, you CANNOT include him in your 1st round "success".

So who has had 1 bottom 3-centre (he's not a Top 9 forward Chipchura), 1 high end starting goalie in Price, 1 top pairing D-man in McD and 1 first line winger in MaxPac?

Let's find out...
Kostitsyn gave us 5 seasons as a top-6 player. If he re-signed with an NHL team instead of the KHL would that somehow change things?

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06-03-2013, 03:22 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
If this was the case, then I can't blame him for going with AKost.
This is also another thing I often bring up.

People seem to blame all wrong doing on Timmins, but like the AK pick, I'm pretty sure he would have picked differently if it was entirely up to him when we picked Price and Leblanc. There might be other picks as well. We don't really know much.
All we actually know is that Timmins has brought the most (or close to it) NHL players throughout the league.


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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Really? Why was that the case? I saw his #s while in the KHL, nothing even close to passable for a young kid who supposedly has enough talent to play in the KHL/Russia. My point is this is who MTL passed in favour of picking the Belarussian Superstar:

Jeff Carter: 6'4" C, 71 in 61 for SSM Grehounds in 2002-03
Dustin Brown: 6'0" RW, 76 in 58 for Guelph Storm in 2002-03
Brent Seabrook: 6'3" D, 42 in 69 for Lethbridge Hurricanes in 2002-03
Zach Parise: 5'11" C, 61 in 39 for UND in 2002-03 as an 18 year-old
Ryan Getzlaf: 6'4" C, 68 in 70 for Calgary Hitmen.
Brent Burns: 6'5" D turned RW in SJ, 40 in 68 in 2002-03 as a D for Brampton Battalion
Ryan Kessler: 6'2" C, 31 in 40 for Ohio State
Mike Richards: 5'11" C/LW, 87 in 67 for Kitchener Rangers
Corey Perry: 6'4" RW, 78 in 67 for London Knights.

These are all the ones we passed on in the 1st round. I would've been happier with any of Carter, Brown, Parise, Getzlaf, Perry, Kessler, Richards. But ok, go with the odd one out and take a risk on the Belarussian. Oh well...
Sure you would have been happier with those guys knowing how they turned out.
Maybe Carter amounts to nothing here. Drafting is one thing, developing is another, don't forget that.
Nonetheless, AK was a highly ranked prospect. Prospects all have flaws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
If this was the case, then I can't blame him for going with AKost.
This is also another thing I often bring up.

People seem to blame all wrong doing on Timmins, but like the AK pick, I'm pretty sure he would have picked differently if it was entirely up to him when we picked Price and Leblanc. There might be other picks as well. We don't really know much.
All we actually know is that Timmins has brought the most (or close to it) NHL players throughout the league.

No matter who you wished he could have picked, he still did a solid job.
We also could have a lot more to show for it if management didn't let guys like Streit, Lats, Laps, Komisarek, Higgins, Weber, D'Ago, S.Kost, A.Kost, Chipchura, Grabo pretty walk for free or be traded for scraps. Outside Streit, and arguably Higgins and Komisarek, we didn't develop any of those guys properly. We could have gotten so much more from all those guys had we kept them longer, developed them properly or traded them at the appropriate time.

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06-03-2013, 03:36 PM
  #136
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1st round picks from last 10 drafts in the NHL

Anaheim: Ryan Getzlaf, Corey Perry, Ladislav Smid, Bobby Ryan, Jake Gardiner, Cam Fowler

Atlanta/Winnipeg: Brayden Cobourn, Bryan Little, Zach Bogosian, Evander Kane, Alexander Burmistrov, Mark Scheifele

Boston: Mark Stuart, David Krejci, Phil Kessel, Jordan Caron, Matt Lashoff, Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton

Buffalo: Tomas Vanek, Drew Stafford, T.J. Brennan, Tyler Myers, Zack Kassian, Mikhail Grigorenko

Calgary: Dion Phaneuf, Backlund (wow this is terrible)

Carolina: Eric Staal, Andrew Ladd, Jack Johnson, Jamie McBain, Brandon Sutter, Zach Boychuk, Jeff Skinner

Chicago: Brent Seabrook, Cam Barker, Jack Skille, Jonathan Toews, Patrick Kane

Colorado: Wojtek Wolski, Chris Stewart, Kevin Shattenkirk, Matt Duchene, Gabriel Landeskog

Columbus: Zherdev, Gilbert Brule lol, Derick Brassard, Voracek, John Moore, Ryan Johansen

Dallas: Mark Fistric, Matt Niskanen, (Dallas' best selections come in the 2nd round lol)

Detroit: Jakub Kindl, Brendan Smith

Edmonton: Marc-Antoine Pouliot, Devan Dubnyk, Andrew Cogliano, Sam Gagner, Jordan Eberle, Magnus Pjaarvi-Svensson, Taylor Hall, Ryan Nugent Hopkins, Nail Yakupov

Florida: Nathan Horton, Rostislav Olesz?, Michael Frolik, Keaton Ellerby, Dmitri Kulikov, Erik Gudbranson, Jonathan Huberdeau

Los Angeles: Dustin Brown, Brian Boyle, Jeff Tambellini?, Anze Kopitar, Jonathan Bernier, Trevor Lewis, Drew Doughty, Brayden Schenn

Minnesota: Brent Burns, Benoit Pouliot, James Sheppard?, Colton Gillies?, Nick Leddy, Jonas Brodin, Mikael Grunland

New Jersey: Zach Parise, Travis Zajac, Nicholas Bergfors?, Mattias Tedenby, Jacob Josefson, Adam Larsson

New York Islanders: Robert Nilsson, Kyle Okposo, Josh Bailey, John Tavares, Nino Neiderreiter

New York Rangers: Al Montoya, Marc Staal, Michael Del Zotto, Chris Kreider

Ottawa Senators: Patrick Eaves, Andrej Meszaros, Brian Lee, Nick Foligno, Jim O'Brien, Erik Karlsson, Jared Cowen, Mika Zibanejad

Philadelphia Flyers: Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Steve Downie, Claude Giroux, James van Riemsdyk, Luca Sbisa, Sean Couturier

Phoenix Coyotes: Blake Wheeler, Martin Hanzal, Peter Mueller, Kyle Turris, Mikkel Boedker, Viktor Tikhonov?, Oliver Ekman-Larsson

Pittsburgh Penguins: Marc-Andre Fleury, Evgeni Malkin, Sidney Crosby, Jordan Staal, Simon Despres

St. Louis Blues: T.J. Oshie, Erik Johnson, Patrick Berglund, Lars Eller, David Perron, Alex Pietrangelo, David Rundblad, Jaden Schwartz, Vladimir Tarasenko

San Jose Sharks: Milan Michalek, Steve Bernier, Devin Setoguchi, Logan Couture, Charlie Coyle?

Tampa Bay Lightning: Steven Stamkos, Victor Hedman, Brett Connolly

Toronto Maple Leafs: Tuukka Rask, Jiri Tlusty, Luke Schenn, Nazem Kadri,

Vancouver Canucks: Ryan Kessler, Cory Schneider, Luc Bourdon, Michael Grabner, Cody Hodgson

Washington Capitals: Eric Fehr, Alex Ovechkin, Jeff Schultz, Mike Green, Niklas Backstrom, Semyon Varlamov, Karl Alzner, John Carlson, Marcus Johansson

Out of all these teams, the teams I think did better than us are Washington, Boston, Los Angeles, Ottawa, Philadelphia, Maybe St. Louis, and Vancouver is a defenseman away.

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06-03-2013, 03:38 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
I must be confusing Anthony Stewart and the other one on St. Louis (Chris?).

As for Boyle and Eaves, they are role playing guys and are actually in the NHL. Where's AK46 (insert cricket noises)?
Ranked 26th in career points and 21st in career goals for the entire draft. 0.56 career pts/game average which would prorate to 45 points over 80 games.

Not the greatest pick at #10 but acting as if he amounted to nothing is pretty ridiculous...

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06-03-2013, 03:48 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Out of all these teams, the teams I think did better than us are Washington, Boston, Los Angeles, Ottawa, Philadelphia, Maybe St. Louis, and Vancouver is a defenseman away.
And of the teams you listed that did better than us, you might as well drop their top 3 picks since Timmins never had that luxury until last year. So Washington loses Ovechkin and Backstrom, Boston loses Seguin, L.A. loses Doughty, and Philadelphia loses van Reimsdyk. I don't see any point in giving those teams credit for consensus picks that a monkey could have walked up to the podium and made.

So with that in mind, I'd say only Anaheim and Philadelphia are clearly better in the first round, both buoyed by a pair of excellent picks in 2003. That aside, Timmins' records is on par or better than just about any other team in the league.

If you were to say "okay so why haven't the Canadiens won a Cup yet or been consistently one of the best teams in the league?", I'd point to our pro scouting which I feel has always been a weakness of ours. Our drafting is strong, but we've proven mediocre at making trades or signing players to complement the players we draft. You can probably count the number of big trades or free agent signings that worked out for us on one hand.

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06-03-2013, 03:51 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Whether he's in the NHL or not doesn't really matter since a) He could be in the NHL if he wanted to but he got a better deal in the KHL and b) a bunch of those players are no longer with the team that drafted them, and some were lost for virtually nothing. So how is Jersey better off selecting Parise and then losing him for nothing?

How does it suck compared to everyone else's when other teams like the Rangers drafted a player that played a grand total of 2 NHL games. Over a third of the teams drafted worse than us. That makes us average.
So he got a better deal in the KHL, how's he doing over there? 21 in 44 in the KHL is really something to be proud of.

I'm talking about people's selections. Who had better selections. Do i blame TT for BG trading way one our first round picks in McD? That logic doesn't work.

Not everyone else's, but most. And first you can't ideally compare our selections to anyone below us in the draft as they don't have the opportunity to draft some people (there are exceptions though in NYR). However, those who drafted below us and got better players did perform better than us in that round in that draft.

Comparing to teams above us in the 1st round, here is who drafted worse than us:

Columbus (arguably). So out of 10 teams in the first 10 picks, we drafted the 9th best player arguably. Pretty good.

Comparing to teams below us in the 1st round, here is who drafted better than us:

Philadelphia x2
Los Angeles
Anaheim x2
Chicago
New Jersey
Minnesota
Vancouver
Washington (arguably)
Los Angeles (with Brian Boyle, arguably)

So arguably out of 21 lowest selections in the 1st round, we have the arguably 11th best pick. That stat says it all. We were the 12th best drafting team that round in out of 22 teams (2 teams in the top 10, the rest in the bottom 20). The remaining 8 did fine given their positions and the 11 above us out of 22 did much better given they were lower than us in the draft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Kostitsyn gave us 5 seasons as a top-6 player. If he re-signed with an NHL team instead of the KHL would that somehow change things?
Kostitsyn gave us 1 good season as a top 6 player, than he gave us 2-3 good seasons as a top 9 player. He has declined ever since has last 1-2 seasons in MTL. It's highly noticeable...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
This is also another thing I often bring up.

People seem to blame all wrong doing on Timmins, but like the AK pick, I'm pretty sure he would have picked differently if it was entirely up to him when we picked Price and Leblanc. There might be other picks as well. We don't really know much.
All we actually know is that Timmins has brought the most (or close to it) NHL players throughout the league.




Sure you would have been happier with those guys knowing how they turned out.
Maybe Carter amounts to nothing here. Drafting is one thing, developing is another, don't forget that.
Nonetheless, AK was a highly ranked prospect. Prospects all have flaws.


This is also another thing I often bring up.

People seem to blame all wrong doing on Timmins, but like the AK pick, I'm pretty sure he would have picked differently if it was entirely up to him when we picked Price and Leblanc. There might be other picks as well. We don't really know much.
All we actually know is that Timmins has brought the most (or close to it) NHL players throughout the league.

No matter who you wished he could have picked, he still did a solid job.
We also could have a lot more to show for it if management didn't let guys like Streit, Lats, Laps, Komisarek, Higgins, Weber, D'Ago, S.Kost, A.Kost, Chipchura, Grabo pretty walk for free or be traded for scraps. Outside Streit, and arguably Higgins and Komisarek, we didn't develop any of those guys properly. We could have gotten so much more from all those guys had we kept them longer, developed them properly or traded them at the appropriate time.
I don't blame Timmins at all for the AK pick. I actually have the full blame on BG as he's the General Manager and ultimately responsible for the selection, good or bad.

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06-03-2013, 03:54 PM
  #140
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Out of all these teams, the teams I think did better than us are Washington, Boston, Los Angeles, Ottawa, Philadelphia, Maybe St. Louis, and Vancouver is a defenseman away.
So when focusing only on Timmins "biggest" weakness, he still ranks around 6-8. Doesn't this prove he's among the best of the best.

By the way I can understand all those teams except Ottawa. Aside from Karlsson they haven't don't have much to show for it.

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06-03-2013, 03:56 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Ranked 26th in career points and 21st in career goals for the entire draft. 0.56 career pts/game average which would prorate to 45 points over 80 games.

Not the greatest pick at #10 but acting as if he amounted to nothing is pretty ridiculous...
It's not a bust per say, but whats the standard deviation at the median? If AK falls outside the median + standard deviation, then it's a bad pick. If not, then it's not as bad as I thought, however I think his avg numbers are not within the median + standard deviation. So my statement of in comparison to everyone else selected, it was a bad pick, i'm relatively accurate.

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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
And of the teams you listed that did better than us, you might as well drop their top 3 picks since Timmins never had that luxury until last year. So Washington loses Ovechkin and Backstrom, Boston loses Seguin, L.A. loses Doughty, and Philadelphia loses van Reimsdyk. I don't see any point in giving those teams credit for consensus picks that a monkey could have walked up to the podium and made.

So with that in mind, I'd say only Anaheim and Philadelphia are clearly better, both buoyed by a pair of excellent picks in 2003. That aside, Timmins' records is on par or better than just about any other team in the league.
Add Galchenyuk (even when he reaches his prime) and we will still do worse than Washington, Boston, L.A., Philadelphia while keeping their top 3 picks.

But top 5 is Amazing and considering Washington had TWO top 5 picks that have fully developed in the past 10 years and we've only had 1, that's still impressive.

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06-03-2013, 03:57 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
So when focusing only on Timmins "biggest" weakness, he still ranks around 6-8. Doesn't this prove he's among the best of the best.

By the way I can understand all those teams except Ottawa. Aside from Karlsson they haven't don't have much to show for it.
I'm not disagreeing that ranking in the top 10 in amateur scouting isn't bad, in fact it's incredible. But somebody asked who did better in the first round out of 5 or so teams, and I named 4 arguably 6 teams that have done better.

Nevertheless, TT is awesome. Please don't leave us!

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06-03-2013, 04:20 PM
  #143
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1st Round
2003 - Andrei Kostitsyn (regular)
2004 - Kyle Chipchura (regular)
2005 - Carey Price (star)
2006 - David Fischer (bust, now get over it!)
2007 - Ryan McDonagh (impact), Max Pacioretty (impact to be star)
2008 - None
2009 - Louis Leblanc (developing)
2010 - Jarred Tinordi (regular, to be impact imo)
2011 - Nathan Beaulieu (developing)
2012 - Alex Galchenyuk (impact, to be star)
Totals
Stars - 1
Impact Players - 3
Regulars - 3
Busts - 1


You are being too generous here. Chipchura and Leblanc are busts. Price is not a star. Tinordi is a soft nobody and it is to be determined if he will be any good. Same with the other Dman, except he isn't a marshmellow like JT.

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06-03-2013, 04:27 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
1st Round
2003 - Andrei Kostitsyn (regular)
2004 - Kyle Chipchura (regular)
2005 - Carey Price (star)
2006 - David Fischer (bust, now get over it!)
2007 - Ryan McDonagh (impact), Max Pacioretty (impact to be star)
2008 - None
2009 - Louis Leblanc (developing)
2010 - Jarred Tinordi (regular, to be impact imo)
2011 - Nathan Beaulieu (developing)
2012 - Alex Galchenyuk (impact, to be star)
Totals
Stars - 1
Impact Players - 3
Regulars - 3
Busts - 1


You are being too generous here. Chipchura and Leblanc are busts. Price is not a star. Tinordi is a soft nobody and it is to be determined if he will be any good. Same with the other Dman, except he isn't a marshmellow like JT.
I agree. If Leblanc is developing then technically so is Tinordi. Price is a star, an all-star actually, twice. Chipchura and AK are all fringe regulars now for me as i don't know who Chipchura is playing for and AK wasn't good enough to get a good enough contract to be a top 6 or top 9 here.

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06-03-2013, 04:27 PM
  #145
Ezpz
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
1st Round
2003 - Andrei Kostitsyn (regular)
2004 - Kyle Chipchura (regular)
2005 - Carey Price (star)
2006 - David Fischer (bust, now get over it!)
2007 - Ryan McDonagh (impact), Max Pacioretty (impact to be star)
2008 - None
2009 - Louis Leblanc (developing)
2010 - Jarred Tinordi (regular, to be impact imo)
2011 - Nathan Beaulieu (developing)
2012 - Alex Galchenyuk (impact, to be star)
Totals
Stars - 1
Impact Players - 3
Regulars - 3
Busts - 1


You are being too generous here. Chipchura and Leblanc are busts. Price is not a star. Tinordi is a soft nobody and it is to be determined if he will be any good. Same with the other Dman, except he isn't a marshmellow like JT.
Don't think it's fair to call Chipchura a bust. He had a career altering achilles injury that he never recovered from. It would be like calling Jiri Fischer a bust.

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06-03-2013, 04:37 PM
  #146
Sorinth
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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
So he got a better deal in the KHL, how's he doing over there? 21 in 44 in the KHL is really something to be proud of.
It doesn't change what he brought to the table in the NHL which is 5 seasons of being a top-6 player. Besides the KHL is known as a low-scoring league (I think they don't give secondary assists or something like that). There's no reason to believe that Kostitsyn wouldn't be giving his regular 20+ goals and ~40 points if he was still in the NHL.


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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
I'm talking about people's selections. Who had better selections. Do i blame TT for BG trading way one our first round picks in McD? That logic doesn't work.

Not everyone else's, but most. And first you can't ideally compare our selections to anyone below us in the draft as they don't have the opportunity to draft some people (there are exceptions though in NYR). However, those who drafted below us and got better players did perform better than us in that round in that draft.
I'm not saying other teams didn't make better picks than us. By saying we did average by definition there were a bunch of teams that picked better than us. Obviously it's tough to compare because of the draft rankings but considering Perry went 28th and Eriksson, Bergeron, Weber, and Backes all went early in the second round it's not like all teams didn't get a real good chance at an all-star.


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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Comparing to teams above us in the 1st round, here is who drafted worse than us:

Columbus (arguably). So out of 10 teams in the first 10 picks, we drafted the 9th best player arguably. Pretty good.
True but Florida, Columbus, San Jose, Atlanta, Calgary and maybe Pittsburgh are all in a similar position to us. They drafted someone who although relatively good, missed out on much better players. If you want to crap on the AK pick because of all the great players chosen after him, then it's the same for half the teams that picked above us.

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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Comparing to teams below us in the 1st round, here is who drafted better than us:

Philadelphia x2
Los Angeles
Anaheim x2
Chicago
New Jersey
Minnesota
Vancouver
Washington (arguably)
Los Angeles (with Brian Boyle, arguably)

So arguably out of 21 lowest selections in the 1st round, we have the arguably 11th best pick. That stat says it all. We were the 12th best drafting team that round in out of 22 teams (2 teams in the top 10, the rest in the bottom 20). The remaining 8 did fine given their positions and the 11 above us out of 22 did much better given they were lower than us in the draft.
So your saying we were the 12th best drafting team and had the 10th best pick, sounds like it was a pretty average draft.

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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Kostitsyn gave us 1 good season as a top 6 player, than he gave us 2-3 good seasons as a top 9 player. He has declined ever since has last 1-2 seasons in MTL. It's highly noticeable...
I guess it depends on what you consider a top-6 player. He finished 80th, 134th, 171st (Missed a quarter of the season), 110th, 151st in league scoring. There are 180 top-6 spots available. You do the math.

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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
I don't blame Timmins at all for the AK pick. I actually have the full blame on BG as he's the General Manager and ultimately responsible for the selection, good or bad.
So do you also give Gainey all the credit for picking Subban, Pacioretty, Price, etc...

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06-03-2013, 05:25 PM
  #147
Whitesnake
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What do u mean? Do u mean because of all the great players he will have drafted for us before he leaves or if he leaves to be an A GM or a GM for another team and could have major success there?
Only mean that we will have some trouble finding a better one than him. That's all.

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06-03-2013, 05:55 PM
  #148
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So what? Is Timmins your buddy or something, or do you care about Habs? We are discussing TT overall performance, and some of us think it is below average, and in the case of Fischer and Kosty, absolutely disastrous. Sorry about that, welcome to a debate board. Useless post.
He is only well above average in every category that I measured, name me 5 times you think are so amazingly wonderful and I will pick out flops bigger than Fisher and Kostitsyn in a heart beat.

You would be well served to release your undying hatred towards people who disagree with you but since I dont believe you have the capacity or intelligence to do so I will do you a favor. Welcome to my ignore list.

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Originally Posted by dmanfish90 View Post
Dude. We ended up with below average since AK46 isn't even in the NHL anymore, I think most people would agree. At the time while he was in the NHL, AK46 was average while everyone else were above average or mostly stars.

The point is, I'm comparing our selection to everyone else's selection and it clearly sucks. Philadelphia's selections to Anaheim's selections, aren't nearly as bad as let's say our selection versus New Jersey's selection in Parise.
This was the magical 2003 draft.

1) Pitts - Marc Andre Fluery - Bust
2) Carolina - Eric Stall - Success
3) Florida - Horton - Bust and not on the team anymore
4) Zherdev - Bust
5) Vanek - Success
6) Michalek - Success (on another team)
7) Suter - Success (on another team)
8) Coburn - By your standards bust
9) Phaneuf - Success (traded for spare parts though)
10) Kosty - bust
11) Jeff Carter - Success (on another team)
12) Hugh Jessiman - bust
13) Dustin Brown - Success
14) Seabrook - Success
15) Nilsson - bust
16) Bernier - bust
17) Parise - Success (different team)
18) Fehr - bust
19) Getzlaf - Success
20) Burns - Success (different team)
21) Mark Stuart - bust
22) Marc-Antoine Pouliot - bust
23) Kesler - Success
24) Mike Richards - Success (different team)
25) Anthony Stewart - bust
26) Brian Boyle - bust
27) Jeff Tambellini - bust
28) Corey Perry - Success
29) Patrick Eaves - bust
30) Shawn Belle - bust

By my calculations 16/30 busted which is 53%. Also note that a whopping 50% (or 7 players) arent even on their original team anymore. The 2003 draft was good, but dont act like it was so amazing that only we missed out. A lot of teams did and at the time we got a consensus top-5 pick. Just let it go already, my gosh. Do you even remember what you did in 2003?

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06-03-2013, 07:04 PM
  #149
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You guys throw the term "bust" too loosely. You can call them disappointing, but MAF, Horton, Coburn, AKost, Bernier, Fehr, Stuart, Boyle and Eaves are not busts. These guys are everyday NHL players.

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06-03-2013, 08:47 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
And of the teams you listed that did better than us, you might as well drop their top 3 picks since Timmins never had that luxury until last year. So Washington loses Ovechkin and Backstrom, Boston loses Seguin, L.A. loses Doughty, and Philadelphia loses van Reimsdyk. I don't see any point in giving those teams credit for consensus picks that a monkey could have walked up to the podium and made.

So with that in mind, I'd say only Anaheim and Philadelphia are clearly better in the first round, both buoyed by a pair of excellent picks in 2003. That aside, Timmins' records is on par or better than just about any other team in the league.

If you were to say "okay so why haven't the Canadiens won a Cup yet or been consistently one of the best teams in the league?", I'd point to our pro scouting which I feel has always been a weakness of ours. Our drafting is strong, but we've proven mediocre at making trades or signing players to complement the players we draft. You can probably count the number of big trades or free agent signings that worked out for us on one hand.
I think our assist GM is good at making trades. He got byflugien and ladd.

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