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Wings, Avs, Devils Future?

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05-22-2005, 10:55 PM
  #1
19 for president
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Wings, Avs, Devils Future?

So it is pretty much the consensus that the Wings, Avs, and Devils have been the top three teams during the past decade. How do you think these will shape up in the next 5-10 years. They all have salary issues (Devils single players, and Avs/Wings team). Most of the hall of famers/ great players that have made these teams great are retiring or leaving, but they all have some very good prospects/ young guns too. So who do you see having to do a full scale rebuild, who goes to the middle of the pack, and who stays at the top. Who will become a main stay on the teams (current rosters/ prospects), and who are gone. I'm just interested in what you guys think the futures of these teams are????

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05-22-2005, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19 for president
So it is pretty much the consensus that the Wings, Avs, and Devils have been the top three teams during the past decade. How do you think these will shape up in the next 5-10 years. They all have salary issues (Devils single players, and Avs/Wings team). Most of the hall of famers/ great players that have made these teams great are retiring or leaving, but they all have some very good prospects/ young guns too. So who do you see having to do a full scale rebuild, who goes to the middle of the pack, and who stays at the top. Who will become a main stay on the teams (current rosters/ prospects), and who are gone. I'm just interested in what you guys think the futures of these teams are????

I would take the Devils because as long as they have the franchise in Net and that system they play they will stay competative.

Salary Caps could seriasly hurt the Avs and Wings

Both teams have drafted alright in the past but currently dont have anything that culd replace key players, esp the AVS whos system is really dead aside from Wolski and Svatos

All should stay competative in the near future tho but no longer will these teams be able to buy Stanley Cups like the Wings did in 03

PS: Dont tell me that many of those key players were home grown b/c i kno they were/are but normal teams without the money the avs and wings have wuld not be able to keep so many great players on a team.

Just ask the pens and oilers fans

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05-23-2005, 08:11 AM
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As for the Devils, they will certainly need a very good year from Marty. That being said, it comes down to their defense...Will they resign Niedermayer and Rafalski and will Stevens have one more good year in him. Don't know exactly how much payroll they will have to chop due to contracts, but they will have to cut.

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05-23-2005, 08:20 AM
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The Devils are at a crossroads because their defense is in complete disarray. Scott Stevens went out and the Devils defense fell apart. The Flyers skated all around them. Scott Niedermayer can only do so much, but he probably will be gone. Brian Rafalski might be brought back, but he isn't a #1 defenseman. Paul Martin is a good player, but right now he is a #4 at best. I don't think Hale is any better than a 3rd pair d-man. Martin Brodeur of course is an all-world goalie, the best in the world, but he sure as hell isn't getting any younger. Is Scott Stevens even going to come back? As a Flyers fan, of course I hate him (not personally, I have a great respect for him), but he is someone who doesn't deserve to go out the way he did.


I would still pick the Devils to make the playoffs, but unless they sure up their defensemen, I wouldn't pick them to be one of the elite teams. They would need an MVP year from Martin Brodeur, I'm not so sure he can handle that.

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05-23-2005, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkyz15
I would take the Devils because as long as they have the franchise in Net and that system they play they will stay competative.

Salary Caps could seriasly hurt the Avs and Wings

Both teams have drafted alright in the past but currently dont have anything that culd replace key players, esp the AVS whos system is really dead aside from Wolski and Svatos

All should stay competative in the near future tho but no longer will these teams be able to buy Stanley Cups like the Wings did in 03

PS: Dont tell me that many of those key players were home grown b/c i kno they were/are but normal teams without the money the avs and wings have wuld not be able to keep so many great players on a team.

Just ask the pens and oilers fans

Excuse me, but the Wings did NOT, repeat, NOT buy the Cup...and we resent the accusation. And the last Cup won by the Wings was 2002. If you're going to lay that kind of an accusation on the team (that doesn't deserve it in the first place), kiindly get your argument in order.

Just because the Wings have an owner who has some pretty hefty finances to work with does not mean that the team bought the Cup. I suppose you would also accuse New England of buying the Super Bowls they won.

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05-23-2005, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
The Devils are at a crossroads because their defense is in complete disarray. Scott Stevens went out and the Devils defense fell apart. The Flyers skated all around them. Scott Niedermayer can only do so much, but he probably will be gone. Brian Rafalski might be brought back, but he isn't a #1 defenseman. Paul Martin is a good player, but right now he is a #4 at best. I don't think Hale is any better than a 3rd pair d-man. Martin Brodeur of course is an all-world goalie, the best in the world, but he sure as hell isn't getting any younger. Is Scott Stevens even going to come back? As a Flyers fan, of course I hate him (not personally, I have a great respect for him), but he is someone who doesn't deserve to go out the way he did.
How wrong you are, Martin finished the season on the Devils top defense pairing and also playing along side with Rafalski was arguebly the top american defenseman in the World Cup last fall. He is most definitly a top four defenseman on the Devils if not better.

I don't think the Devils "D" is in such a disarray as you think are perhaps hope.

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05-23-2005, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kira
Excuse me, but the Wings did NOT, repeat, NOT buy the Cup...and we resent the accusation. And the last Cup won by the Wings was 2002. If you're going to lay that kind of an accusation on the team (that doesn't deserve it in the first place), kiindly get your argument in order.

Just because the Wings have an owner who has some pretty hefty finances to work with does not mean that the team bought the Cup. I suppose you would also accuse New England of buying the Super Bowls they won.
Totally agree here. The Wings IMO are the last team aside from the Lightining to win the cup without Significant FA signings in 97 and 98. Those teams were drafted pure and simple. And when they traded for Shanahan, at the time it was a truly significant return in Primeau.

Certainly I can buy the "buying" argument in 2002 with Robitaille, Hasek, Hull, Schneider. But the Core has always been there.

I think the last true Dynasty, if we can call it that, in the NHL.

Tampa could be the next one though.

As for the three teams, I say the Avs. Forsberg, Hejduk, Tanguay, Sakic, Blake, Foote... great core still together for a few more seasons. I see the Wings being knocked off so to speak first. The Devils are always up or down it seems, but hard to argue 4 finals and 3 cups in 10 years.

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05-23-2005, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Certainly I can buy the "buying" argument in 2002 with Robitaille, Hasek, Hull, Schneider. But the Core has always been there.
One of the best goalie of all time and two elite goalscorers (among of the best wingers of last decade). Nice exception.

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05-23-2005, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Totally agree here. The Wings IMO are the last team aside from the Lightining to win the cup without Significant FA signings in 97 and 98. Those teams were drafted pure and simple. And when they traded for Shanahan, at the time it was a truly significant return in Primeau.
The only UFA on the 2000-01 Avs was Dave Reid.

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05-23-2005, 12:17 PM
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It all hinges on how strict the transition period of the new CBA turns out to be. And what manner of cap figure/rollback we see. All three have a couple of big contracts and the Wings particularly have a number of RFAs from under the old deal unsigned. With a strict transition those RFAs might not be able to be signed, thus crippling the team for the near and longterm future.

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05-23-2005, 12:26 PM
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Why are the Avs even in this discussion? They have no future.....


Anyhow, I'd take the Wings with all their young players.

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05-23-2005, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
Totally agree here. The Wings IMO are the last team aside from the Lightining to win the cup without Significant FA signings in 97 and 98. Those teams were drafted pure and simple. And when they traded for Shanahan, at the time it was a truly significant return in Primeau.

Certainly I can buy the "buying" argument in 2002 with Robitaille, Hasek, Hull, Schneider. But the Core has always been there.

I think the last true Dynasty, if we can call it that, in the NHL.

Tampa could be the next one though.

As for the three teams, I say the Avs. Forsberg, Hejduk, Tanguay, Sakic, Blake, Foote... great core still together for a few more seasons. I see the Wings being knocked off so to speak first. The Devils are always up or down it seems, but hard to argue 4 finals and 3 cups in 10 years.
Quote:
Totally agree here. The Wings IMO are the last team aside from the Lightining to win the cup without Significant FA signings in 97 and 98. Those teams were drafted pure and simple. And when they traded for Shanahan, at the time it was a truly significant return in Primeau.
Can you please list the significant FA's signed by the Devils.

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05-23-2005, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyPhantoms
Why are the Avs even in this discussion? They have no future.....


Anyhow, I'd take the Wings with all their young players.
None of which are under contract save Fischer. If there isn't a mechanism to allow teams at or over the cap (which we are very close to even with a rollback) to retain RFAs the Wings could very well lose their future core, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Hudler, Grigorenko...

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05-23-2005, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19 for president
So it is pretty much the consensus that the Wings, Avs, and Devils have been the top three teams during the past decade. How do you think these will shape up in the next 5-10 years. They all have salary issues (Devils single players, and Avs/Wings team). Most of the hall of famers/ great players that have made these teams great are retiring or leaving, but they all have some very good prospects/ young guns too. So who do you see having to do a full scale rebuild, who goes to the middle of the pack, and who stays at the top. Who will become a main stay on the teams (current rosters/ prospects), and who are gone. I'm just interested in what you guys think the futures of these teams are????
They'll be hurt because of the cap. All three of these teams are winning teams and I don't think all those fans will stay once their team is average.

Wings fans in the past have showed that they won't support a bad team, the Devils have had problems selling tickets when their winning so that will only get worse, the Avs will have problems because their fans have always had a great team and don't know any better.

These teams should be fine because they have deep pockets and will always be able to ice a good team but I think the years of them winning the cup year after year is over.

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05-23-2005, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by norrisnick
None of which are under contract save Fischer. If there isn't a mechanism to allow teams at or over the cap (which we are very close to even with a rollback) to retain RFAs the Wings could very well lose their future core, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Hudler, Grigorenko...
Well it's all intensly speculative at this point.

Given the Avs mining late rounds (who called Liles?) I'm not mixing up Kool-aid as yet.

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05-23-2005, 01:12 PM
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My suggestion: look beyond the ice (today) and look at the front office.

All NHL teams will be dealing in the years ahead with a Brave New NHL, economic wise. Clearly teams with the most talent have the highest risk.

But ultimately - for all 30 franchises - it comes down to management acumen, under a cap or no cap. It starts at the top.

As long as Lacroix, Lamariello and Holland are in Colorado, NJ and Detroit respectively, those franchises will be viable.

Resource$ is one thing. Using resource$ properly is another. Contrary to the popular, flawed opinion (usually offered by fans of non-contenders) these three guys will not suddenly become "dumb or ineffective" once their payrolls are limited. Certainly no less so than any other GM.

Nothing beats brains, to quote JFK. These franchises have an advantage in that category, clearly, based on past results.


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05-23-2005, 01:43 PM
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Looking at what they have TODAY and the future economic system, I'd say all 3 teams will take a hit and Florida, Tampa, Atlanta, and the Preds will pass them. For the Avs, Sakic is hitting the middle 30s, how much does he have left? Forsberg retires every season, any day it could be for real. Blake is aging, Foote doesn't have young legs either. Aebisher is good, but average good, not someone who can carry a team, so depending on him to lead the Avs is out of the question. Hejduk is still in his prime, and will be good, but thats about it. With no top notch prospects to speak of, in 5 years, the Avs will be middle of the pack.

The Devils will have 2 problems. First, their defence has fallen apart. Nieds and Rafalski and not signed, and teams benefitting from the new system will make offers. Martin will be good and top 2 material, Hale has some sickness I don't know much about, but apparently it can greatly affect his career, and he might even have to retire. Matvichuk can only block shots these days. NJ doesn't allow many anyways, so his role is limited. Second, Brodeur isn't here for 10 more years, so NJ will have to either change styles (win 1-0 or 2-1 evey playoff game) or get lucky and get another Marty. Brodeur really helps his defence with his puckhandling. People really underrate this skill, but it allows a team to avoid battles for the puck on the defencive end and more posessions. Marty Turco is another example. He is very good, and his stick makes him great. Luongo faces many shots partly because he can't use his stick, and ofcourse that defence of his.

As for the Wings, well, their core is getting old or/and retiring. Lidstrom better return to his regular self for them to be good, Hatcher as well. They have good young players in Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Grigorenko, etc. who will keep this team at the top or near in the West, but their goaltending situation is alarming. With this team, they need an average keeper to be very good, so if one of their prospects turns out to be one, highly likely, they will be o.k.

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05-23-2005, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freakazoid
Looking at what they have TODAY and the future economic system, I'd say all 3 teams will take a hit and Florida, Tampa, Atlanta, and the Preds will pass them. For the Avs, Sakic is hitting the middle 30s, how much does he have left? Forsberg retires every season, any day it could be for real. Blake is aging, Foote doesn't have young legs either. Aebisher is good, but average good, not someone who can carry a team, so depending on him to lead the Avs is out of the question. Hejduk is still in his prime, and will be good, but thats about it. With no top notch prospects to speak of, in 5 years, the Avs will be middle of the pack.
Tanguay?


Vaananen,Aebischer,Liles,Budaj,Svatos,Tanguay,Hejd uk,Sauer,Hinote,Hahl.
That's good start.

And i can say that there will be pretty much money after Blake (8,5 million), Sakic (8,5 million), Foote 4,4 million...

There will be much money to use(question is can they use it?)

Wolski,Richardson,Parshin,Boychuk,Kalteva and McCormick.
These guys can make it, and there is for sure someone else who's gonna suprise all of us.


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05-23-2005, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Color@do @v@l@nche
Tanguay?


Vaananen,Aebischer,Liles,Budaj,Svatos,Tanguay,Hejd uk,Sauer,Hinote,Hahl.
That's good start.

And i can say that there will be pretty much money after Blake (8,5 million), Sakic (8,5 million), Foote 4,4 million...

There will be much money to use(question is can they use it?)

Wolski,Richardson,Parshin,Boychuk,Kalteva and McCormick.
These guys can make it, and there is for sure someone else who's gonna suprise all of us.
Agreed I forgot Tanguay, it's a Monday morning , but how will he do without Sakic/Forsberg? The Avs Future doesn't include a #1 center to lead the way, so it will be more difficult for them to score. As for the other guys you named, none will be able to lead them to the top of the league. Take out the salaries of Blake, Sakic and Foote, and their payroll will fit into the system, but not much room to work with. The D looks shaky, and Liles has a size issue. That looks like a middle of the pack team to me. They better hope Budaj turns out to be a #1 so they can trade either him or Aebischer for help at center. And all 30 teams can bank their future on guys that can "surprise all of us", so thats not much of an argument.

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05-23-2005, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Hasbro
Well it's all intensly speculative at this point.

Given the Avs mining late rounds (who called Liles?) I'm not mixing up Kool-aid as yet.
Which of course is why I prefaced that statement with "If." Though it isn't that outrageous. Without a rollback the Wings are on the hook for $42.2M, with a rollback at $32.2M. That isn't including the little list of players I gave (as well as a couple of other including a second goaltender). Without favorable circumstances (ones which may very well not come to be given the rigid demands of the hardline owners) the Wings are in trouble for the very near and far future.

/enter fan of bottom dweller spouting "ha ha serves you right, now you know how we feel" clearly forgetting the the Wings were the epitomy of bottom dwellers prior to Ilitch and Yzerman's arrivals and built themselves up to a franchise rivaling Toronto in value.

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05-23-2005, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Which of course is why I prefaced that statement with "If." Though it isn't that outrageous. Without a rollback the Wings are on the hook for $42.2M, with a rollback at $32.2M. That isn't including the little list of players I gave (as well as a couple of other including a second goaltender). Without favorable circumstances (ones which may very well not come to be given the rigid demands of the hardline owners) the Wings are in trouble for the very near and far future.
I'm sorry I didn't intend to come off a disputing you.

Quote:
/enter fan of bottom dweller spouting "ha ha serves you right, now you know how we feel" clearly forgetting the the Wings were the epitomy of bottom dwellers prior to Ilitch and Yzerman's arrivals and built themselves up to a franchise rivaling Toronto in value.
Likewise the varios travials of the Colorado fanbase. Solidarity Wing fan.

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05-23-2005, 03:58 PM
  #22
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Without a rollback, the Devils will be on the hook for about 20 million next year (mostly Brodeur, Madden). RFAs include Elias, Gomez, Friesen, Kozlov, Hrdina (the latter 3 probably would be expendable). UFAs include Niedermayer, Rafalski, and Stevens.

Still could conceivably see the Devils offering Niedermayer ~7-8 mil to stick around, at the expense of guys like Friesen/Kozlov/Hrdina. If Nieds leaves, it'll be for a reason other than money.

And if I'm a team like Columbus or Nashville who has a comfortable cap number, I wouldn't shoot my proverbial load immediately. Just because you have cap space, doesn't mean you should spend it right away.

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05-23-2005, 04:34 PM
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And if I'm a team like Columbus or Nashville who has a comfortable cap number, I wouldn't shoot my proverbial load immediately. Just because you have cap space, doesn't mean you should spend it right away.
Why not? WIth the vast number of free agents that will be available after the CBA is done, the large amount of good players available will surely drive their price down. This is a one time opportunity to nail down some great players at a reduced cost, plus with most rich teams will be over the cap and will require to cut down, it is THE time to spend that cap room, because when the NHL comes back, it has nowhere to go but up, meaning more cap room, higher salaries, kind of what happened to baseball the last few years. There won't be 10M/year offers from big market teams since they will be capped out, so the little guys have a nice pool of players to pick from, and all of them have to play somewhere.

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05-23-2005, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by freakazoid
Looking at what they have TODAY and the future economic system, I'd say all 3 teams will take a hit and Florida, Tampa, Atlanta, and the Preds will pass them.
LOL!!

The disillusional HockeysFuture crowd.

Florida, Atlanta and Nashville passing Detroit, New Jersey and Colorado?


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05-23-2005, 05:02 PM
  #25
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I think it's foolish for anyone to say which organization is going to have troubles and which ones are not at this point. We have no idea what each team will do when a deal is announced; heck, we aren't even sure what the cap (if there is indeed one) number will be, or even how many teams there will even be. The only things that are certain, IMO, are 1. You will see a lot of player movement the first week or two when a deal finally is in place, 2. The days of multiple players making 7+ million a year on one team are over, and 3. There will be a large influx of younger, cheaper players called up, and several veteran high $$ players will be out.

But itís not all on the organizations to help alleviate the problems that will show up once a deal is done. The players who are FAís are going to have to take some more responsibility and take much less in some instances to play whether they like it or not, or they will find themselves landing on smaller market teams that can afford them but still have no shot to win, or wont find any teams to play on at all because they will have priced themselves right out of the league. But the players aren't stupid, IMO, they want to win, and Iím sure several players will return to their current teams at discounted salaries just for that chance.

Yes, teams like Colorado, Detroit, Philly, Dallas, Toronto, etc... that have higher payrolls now, will more than likely look vastly different than they did two years ago. But that doesn't mean they will all suck because they don't have 60+ million to spend. Hell, thereís no guarantee that the teams that are still below the estimated cap number currently will even spend more to compete, unless forced to. But it will sure be interesting to see where each team goes, to see what the higher payrolled teams do, and to see what the players do sign for. I canít wait until they finally get a deal done to see what happens. This past winter was too damned long.

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