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2013 Draft Thread IV–June 30 3pm–8 16 38 52 69 129 130 143 159 189–Draft Primer in OP

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06-12-2013, 03:08 PM
  #401
Sean McG
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Nashville has Weber signed through 2026. I can't imagine they're too worried about any impending departure.
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I think any pursuit of Vanek by Nashville would be to have him move into the fourth member of their core aside Weber, Josi, and Rinne. I don't think it'd have much, if anything, to do with keeping Weber happy. He's making $42m over the first three years of his deal, so he's going nowhere regardless of whether he becomes a sad panda at some point during his contract.
They have him signed on a contract through 2026 that he signed with another team... his team made the second round of the playoffs and he still wanted to go to Philadelphia. Weber is going into his age 28 season and probably doesn't want to play for bottom five teams. If he asks for a trade, any team would take on his contract, that's not really an issue.

How does improving the team have nothing to do with keeping Shea Weber happy? They show to him that they're willing to bring in good players like Vanek, he improves their offense, and they could return to the playoffs again. Weber would be happy if the team returned to being competitive.


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I'm not necessarily saying this in favor of the idea that they'd want Vanek, but he has a point about Weber. You have to keep your star players happy even if they're under contract. This may not be the NFL but players can still have some pull while secured under contract. Holdouts are rare for example, but then again so is signing offer sheet.
Exactly. All that I'm saying.


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I'd be utterly stunned if the top 3 was anything other than Jones, Mackinnon, Drouin...although not necessarily in that order.

Drouin fits the Lightning's needs (scoring winger to play with Stamkos for the next decade) so incredibly well it would be beyond foolish for them to pass on him if he's there.
Don't think he has a better chance of going 3 than Drouin, just wouldn't be surprised if they went Barkov over him.

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06-12-2013, 03:09 PM
  #402
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Maybe you didn't listen to the interview. They are in discussions with Colorado about the possibility of moving up to that spot.
He said they called and they are waiting for a call back.

It seemed like he was pessimistic about a deal happening, but that they are doing their due diligence to try and make something happen in that regard.

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06-12-2013, 03:43 PM
  #403
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DEVINE: "We've had conversations with Colorado. I think you know there’s been a regime change there, as everybody knows, in the last three weeks, and I think they’re trying to figure out themselves what’s happening there. I believe they’re having internal meetings there this week and we’ll probably get back to them at some point. We’re waiting for a call back to find out what their position is."

DEVINE: "Probably both [waiting to hear back if they’re willing and find out what the price is]. We’re exploring everything. I think Darcy has talked to every non-playoff team and as soon as teams get out of the playoffs, Darcy makes a pretty quick call. We’ve talked to all the teams in front of us trying to gauge where exactly they’re at with moving their pick."

DEVINE: "I think it’s how far [Colorado or Florida] want to move back. Take the situation in Colorado where there’s a new regime in there with Joe Sakic and Patrick Roy ... I don’t think Patrick came in there with the idea of a long rebuild, so I think they might be willing to listen to a few things, and like I said, with it being a deep draft and there being all kinds of different options with different kinds of players -- defense, gritty forwards, skilled forwards -- there’s all kinds of options. We don’t exactly know what teams are thinking in front of us, but it keeps our options open."

DEVINE: "[Moving up scenarios were] the basis of our meetings over the past week and a lot of the conversation over two days: 'What would it take to get this pick? What would it take to get that pick? Is that going to be something we’re willing to do?' The preliminary talks are that everybody’s talking about our young players to move up, so we’ve got to decide if it makes sense to move some of those players to move up. It’s a difficult conversation, but if you’re really honed in on one guy and he can be a franchise changer, then you have to look at it."

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06-12-2013, 04:04 PM
  #404
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DEVINE: "We've had conversations with Colorado. I think you know there’s been a regime change there, as everybody knows, in the last three weeks, and I think they’re trying to figure out themselves what’s happening there. I believe they’re having internal meetings there this week and we’ll probably get back to them at some point. We’re waiting for a call back to find out what their position is."

DEVINE: "Probably both [waiting to hear back if they’re willing and find out what the price is]. We’re exploring everything. I think Darcy has talked to every non-playoff team and as soon as teams get out of the playoffs, Darcy makes a pretty quick call. We’ve talked to all the teams in front of us trying to gauge where exactly they’re at with moving their pick."

DEVINE: "I think it’s how far [Colorado or Florida] want to move back. Take the situation in Colorado where there’s a new regime in there with Joe Sakic and Patrick Roy ... I don’t think Patrick came in there with the idea of a long rebuild, so I think they might be willing to listen to a few things, and like I said, with it being a deep draft and there being all kinds of different options with different kinds of players -- defense, gritty forwards, skilled forwards -- there’s all kinds of options. We don’t exactly know what teams are thinking in front of us, but it keeps our options open."

DEVINE: "[Moving up scenarios were] the basis of our meetings over the past week and a lot of the conversation over two days: 'What would it take to get this pick? What would it take to get that pick? Is that going to be something we’re willing to do?' The preliminary talks are that everybody’s talking about our young players to move up, so we’ve got to decide if it makes sense to move some of those players to move up. It’s a difficult conversation, but if you’re really honed in on one guy and he can be a franchise changer, then you have to look at it."
Thanks Woodhouse...Something about HOW they are speaking has me a little optimistic. I don't think I have ever heard ANYBODY in the Sabres Management that deals with Player decisions talk like they are.

As much as I don't Darcy, I will say he really keeps his mouth shut and holds things to the vest and usually when this happens they surprise people with a move. The face they are still hesitant on who they are targeting, the amount of times they are saying FRANCHISE guy or FRANCHISE changer is encouraging.

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06-12-2013, 04:19 PM
  #405
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They have him signed on a contract through 2026 that he signed with another team... his team made the second round of the playoffs and he still wanted to go to Philadelphia. Weber is going into his age 28 season and probably doesn't want to play for bottom five teams. If he asks for a trade, any team would take on his contract, that's not really an issue.
It's silly to speculate on whether or not Weber "wanted to leave" when it's a lot simpler to look at how much money he got in the offer sheet, and the fact that he and his agent rightfully concluded they weren't going to be able to get a contract like that under the new CBA

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06-12-2013, 04:26 PM
  #406
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They have him signed on a contract through 2026 that he signed with another team... his team made the second round of the playoffs and he still wanted to go to Philadelphia.
Oh, this again. The "He did not want to stay in Nashville" argument is bunk. If he didn't want to stay in Nashville he wouldn't have given them the opportunity to keep him there until 2026. Weber preferred money to getting out of Nashville. He could've signed a one-year deal and gone UFA this summer, but he wanted to get paid more under the old CBA than he wanted out of Nashville.

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Weber is going into his age 28 season and probably doesn't want to play for bottom five teams.
So an NHL player wants to play for a winner? Tell me more!

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If he asks for a trade, any team would take on his contract, that's not really an issue.
First, if he asks for a trade, Nashville's going to tell him to go screw because they didn't just pay him $14m per in the first couple years to decide he wants out. Also, the Preds could get royally ****ed if he retired by the recapture provision given the heavy frontloading of the deal. Oh, and he's signed for 13 more years. Too bad, Shea.

Second, plenty of teams can see beyond the ends of their nose, and wouldn't trade for that contract. Not every professional organization has the mindset of an impatient fan.

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How does improving the team have nothing to do with keeping Shea Weber happy?
What? The Predators aren't going to be making moves to keep Shea Weber happy; they're going to be making moves to solidify their core and better their roster so they can win more games and make the playoffs and, hopefully, win the Cup, which is the goal of pretty much every team. I have little doubt that Shea's feelings and emotions aren't even a consideration when they build their roster.

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They show to him that they're willing to bring in good players like Vanek, he improves their offense, and they could return to the playoffs again. Weber would be happy if the team returned to being competitive.
Haven't they already shown Weber this by matching his deal, signing Rinne, making a big push for Suter, and locking up Josi? But, again, Shea Weber's feelings and emotions probably don't rank in the top-100 reasons why the Predators will build their roster in the way that they do. It's a non-factor. He's signed with them until 2026, and he isn't going anywhere soon.

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06-12-2013, 04:42 PM
  #407
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Thanks Woodhouse...Something about HOW they are speaking has me a little optimistic. I don't think I have ever heard ANYBODY in the Sabres Management that deals with Player decisions talk like they are.

As much as I don't Darcy, I will say he really keeps his mouth shut and holds things to the vest and usually when this happens they surprise people with a move. The face they are still hesitant on who they are targeting, the amount of times they are saying FRANCHISE guy or FRANCHISE changer is encouraging.
Its all talk. They dont have the guts.

Vanek, Hodgson, Ehrhoff, pick 8, pick 16, Miller. Pay half of Miller or Vanek's contract.

Deal done. We overpay, so what. We need our franchise player.

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06-12-2013, 04:45 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Its all talk. They dont have the guts.

Vanek, Hodgson, Ehrhoff, pick 8, pick 16, Miller. Pay half of Miller or Vanek's contract.

Deal done. We overpay, so what. We need our franchise player.

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06-12-2013, 04:58 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Its all talk. They dont have the guts.

Vanek, Hodgson, Ehrhoff, pick 8, pick 16, Miller. Pay half of Miller or Vanek's contract.

Deal done. We overpay, so what. We need our franchise player.
This is just a terrible use of assets. I hope they don't have the "guts" in this case. They'd be better off selling those veterans to teams that actually value them and then use that return to trade up where they can. From there they can see if they can swing it all into #1 or #2 while presumably still retaining something in the bargain.

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06-12-2013, 05:14 PM
  #410
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This is just a terrible use of assets. I hope they don't have the "guts" in this case. They'd be better off selling those veterans to teams that actually value them and then use that return to trade up where they can. From there they can see if they can swing it all into #1 or #2 while presumably still retaining something in the bargain.
If you want to rebuild a Cup team you need someone to build around. If the Sabres identify MacKinnon as that player then do whatever it takes to get him if Colorado is willing to listen.

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06-12-2013, 05:21 PM
  #411
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If you want to rebuild a Cup team you need someone to build around. If the Sabres identify MacKinnon as that player then do whatever it takes to get him if Colorado is willing to listen.
Phrases like "whatever it takes" are meaningless because either the person doesn't mean it, or they do and that can be taken to a point of logical absurdity. There's a difference between taking a serious run at MacKinnon and just hurting yourself. What's wrong with trading up for Barkov instead? You can still sell off Vanek, Miller, and whomever else for more assets and maybe get another high pick next year by virtue of sucking.

The question here is why does it have to be MacKinnon? He's not the best prospect ever. There are other possible franchise players in this draft, and there will be others in the future.

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06-12-2013, 05:22 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Its all talk. They dont have the guts.

Vanek, Hodgson, Ehrhoff, pick 8, pick 16, Miller. Pay half of Miller or Vanek's contract.

Deal done. We overpay, so what. We need our franchise player.
I'm of two minds. Sometimes I would say this is absurd. But then I think, well, if we're starting from scratch, might as well do it with MacKinnon.

If we did this, we would still have ALL of our young talent, minus Hodgson. Still have Girgensons, Grigorenko, Armia, Pysyk, McNabb, McCabe, Foligno. Hell, if they'd do that, I'd pull the trigger in a heart beat.

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06-12-2013, 05:26 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
If you want to rebuild a Cup team you need someone to build around. If the Sabres identify MacKinnon as that player then do whatever it takes to get him if Colorado is willing to listen.
Or you could trade Vanek/Miller for more components of a future team, be awful this upcoming season and have a better chance of getting Reinhardt/Ekblad to build around. All that without mortgaging half your team for a single prospect and praying he turns out to be elite.

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06-12-2013, 05:42 PM
  #414
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Or you could trade Vanek/Miller for more components of a future team, be awful this upcoming season and have a better chance of getting Reinhardt/Ekblad to build around. All that without mortgaging half your team for a single prospect and praying he turns out to be elite.
If the Sabres have a chance to grab the #1 pick they have to, we cant predict future draft position. This is a unique year where we have many assets to trade.

I seem to be the only person hearing Darcy when he says we have to find a way to acquire elite players.

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06-12-2013, 05:44 PM
  #415
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I'm of two minds. Sometimes I would say this is absurd. But then I think, well, if we're starting from scratch, might as well do it with MacKinnon.

If we did this, we would still have ALL of our young talent, minus Hodgson. Still have Girgensons, Grigorenko, Armia, Pysyk, McNabb, McCabe, Foligno. Hell, if they'd do that, I'd pull the trigger in a heart beat.
My building of Sabres is based on what Darcy says. 5 years, suffering, whatever it takes to get elite players.

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06-12-2013, 05:53 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
If the Sabres have a chance to grab the #1 pick they have to, we cant predict future draft position. This is a unique year where we have many assets to trade.

I seem to be the only person hearing Darcy when he says we have to find a way to acquire elite players.
If you're completely negating all value of a trade like you did above, the Sabres will have a chance at the #1 pick every year.

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06-12-2013, 06:13 PM
  #417
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If you're completely negating all value of a trade like you did above, the Sabres will have a chance at the #1 pick every year.
But isnt that the point? Be bad, acquire elite prospects. We can sign or trade for role players later. There are always top 4 D available if you are willing to pay, always 2nd and 3rd line players available.

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06-12-2013, 06:34 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
If the Sabres have a chance to grab the #1 pick they have to, we cant predict future draft position. This is a unique year where we have many assets to trade.

I seem to be the only person hearing Darcy when he says we have to find a way to acquire elite players.
You're right, but if we end up with #4 next year we likely have a more reasonable shot at trading up to #1.

You aren't the only one listening and I don't hear Darcy saying anything about trading for #1 this year or bust. In fact, everything we've pieced together makes it look more likely they'll trade up to #3-5 and try getting a guy like Barkov. If Barkov can be something like Kopitar then that's a huge part of building a contender right there. You need elite centers but you don't need the absolute best center as plenty of other parts are required.

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06-12-2013, 06:40 PM
  #419
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Barkov and Grigorenko as a 1/2 punch down the road would really be something, with the likes of Hodgson/Ennis/Girgensons/Larsson/Armia in a supporting cast.

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06-12-2013, 06:55 PM
  #420
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You're right, but if we end up with #4 next year we likely have a more reasonable shot at trading up to #1.

You aren't the only one listening and I don't hear Darcy saying anything about trading for #1 this year or bust. In fact, everything we've pieced together makes it look more likely they'll trade up to #3-5 and try getting a guy like Barkov. If Barkov can be something like Kopitar then that's a huge part of building a contender right there. You need elite centers but you don't need the absolute best center as plenty of other parts are required.
I would be genuinely happy with any of the "big 6" forwards. I would get really excited if they were able to land MacKinnon, Drouin, or Barkov. I think all 3 can be franchise players you build around.

Its a unique draft IMO. I hope we get one of these players. We have the ammo and we supposedly are willing to shoot. I still dont trust Darcy. I think he is scared to lose a trade.

I was only talking #1 pick because of what Devine said.

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06-12-2013, 07:27 PM
  #421
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You're still grossly overlooking just how difficult it is to trade into the top few picks. The idea that the draft is a complete write off, and that Darcy messed up, if the Sabres can't get one of MacKinnon, Drouin or Barkov is just so divorced from reality that it's impossible to take seriously.

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06-12-2013, 07:35 PM
  #422
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If we had a choice between Monahan or Lindholm who do people want? I'm assuming we don't trade up and praying there is a small possibility that one of these two will drop to us.

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06-12-2013, 07:40 PM
  #423
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You're still grossly overlooking just how difficult it is to trade into the top few picks. The idea that the draft is a complete write off, and that Darcy messed up, if the Sabres can't get one of MacKinnon, Drouin or Barkov is just so divorced from reality that it's impossible to take seriously.
Exactly. But some like to be dramatic

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06-12-2013, 07:44 PM
  #424
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If we had a choice between Monahan or Lindholm who do people want? I'm assuming we don't trade up and praying there is a small possibility that one of these two will drop to us.
Honestly that's not an easy call. It not only incorporates a person's preference for player type but also how they project these two players. Monahan's offense is a little hard to peg due to playing on a crappy team this year. Lindholm plays on Euro ice. Both should be good two-way centers. Both will bring a physical aspect. Monahan will be able to grind it physically a bit more with his size but Lindholm is feisty.

Personally I'd go with Lindholm but I'd rather hand the choice over to someone with a better handle on both guys. Lindholm seems like a better shot at being elite while Monahan is probably the safer player to have a strong, long NHL career.

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06-12-2013, 09:22 PM
  #425
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If we had a choice between Monahan or Lindholm who do people want? I'm assuming we don't trade up and praying there is a small possibility that one of these two will drop to us.
I'd take Lindholm but it's not that big of a gap, I have them as my #5 and #6 prospects respectively. Either one of them dropping to us would be great.

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